If there is really a God then why do people NEED a book to tell them what is right and wrong

[HeroOfPellinor]

Originally posted by: Ryan

Originally posted by: HeroOfPellinor

Originally posted by: Ryan
IMHO - the mere fact that there is no constant in religion is proof that religion is nothing more than a tool to control the masses - everyone is selective in choosing what they want to believe and follow from their religion. There are thousands of sects of christianity - each one professing to know the real "truth", each using the same book and interpretation to support their viewpoints.

What's really scary is that you are so confident while also being so ignorant.....the heart of a closed mind. But I tend to think your ignorance is self-chosen so as to best suit what's most convenient for you and, hell, I'm not gonna bother trying to change your mind while that's the case as it would be futile.

I'm not a closed mind - I just see nothing in any form of Christianity that is of value to my life. I'm still capable of loving people, I'm still capable of sharing intimate bonds, I'm still capable of working, etc, etc, WITH A PURPOSE that fulfills me.

I find it funny that your claims of my ignorance can only be supported by your Christian belief system - which suggests that it is your mind that is closed, as to protect the walls of religion you have erected from crumbling.

To clarify, anybody who says the major denominations and even religeons don't have
generally the same core tenets is, in fact, unkowledgeable in the area and therefore ignorant. Not a fault on its own but when combined with a snearing disdain for something, it's a sign of a closed or prejudiced mind.

But, truthfully, that's beside the point. Even if only one person believes, it The Truth is still The Truth. If you're denying it based on what other people do or don't think then you're.....uh.....of one opinion.

 

[Ryan]

Originally posted by: HeroOfPellinor

Originally posted by: Ryan

Originally posted by: HeroOfPellinor

Originally posted by: Ryan
IMHO - the mere fact that there is no constant in religion is proof that religion is nothing more than a tool to control the masses - everyone is selective in choosing what they want to believe and follow from their religion. There are thousands of sects of christianity - each one professing to know the real "truth", each using the same book and interpretation to support their viewpoints.

What's really scary is that you are so confident while also being so ignorant.....the heart of a closed mind. But I tend to think your ignorance is self-chosen so as to best suit what's most convenient for you and, hell, I'm not gonna bother trying to change your mind while that's the case as it would be futile.

I'm not a closed mind - I just see nothing in any form of Christianity that is of value to my life. I'm still capable of loving people, I'm still capable of sharing intimate bonds, I'm still capable of working, etc, etc, WITH A PURPOSE that fulfills me.

I find it funny that your claims of my ignorance can only be supported by your Christian belief system - which suggests that it is your mind that is closed, as to protect the walls of religion you have erected from crumbling.

To clarify, anybody who says the major denominations and even religeons don't have
generally the same core tenets is, in fact, unkowledgeable in the area and therefore ignorant. Not a fault on its own but when combined with a snearing disdain for something, it's a sign of a closed or prejudiced mind.

But, truthfully, that's beside the point. Even if only one person believes, it The Truth is still The Truth. If you're denying it based on what other people do or don't think then you're.....uh.....of one opinion.

The point I'm trying to make is that there is no SINGULAR truth (religion, god, etc). I'm sure someone from an Eastern Greek Orthadox Churn will not share the same belief and interpretation of the bible as someone who considers themselves a member of Evangelical Lutheran Church in America - yet they all both use the same book and claim to know the "real" truth. It is the same for every religion, every sect, every group - if there was one singular truth, no being on this earth will ever know it, because if they did, then there would be no religious conflict in the world. It's existance (religious conflict and uncertainty) negates the idea that one can find the real "Truth".

Mask your belief in whatever form your want, faith, tell yourself that god is controlling the actions of your life, or has "interveined" in it - in the end, you're limiting your existance, and the quality of life in general.

 

[HeroOfPellinor]

Originally posted by: Ryan
The point I'm trying to make is that there is no SINGULAR truth (religion, god, etc).

Dude. That's what Truth is. It's singular. Ya, we got billions of people coming at it from billions of directions, but there is a singular Truth and, obviously, some are closer to it than others.

As faulty human beings, the full Truth eludes us all and always will, but we can get glimpses of it. You put these glimpses together and you end up with something vaguely resembling the Truth and, well, that's gonna have to suffice and we can all split off into factions on what we think we see in the fuzzier areas.

I find it odd that somebody so sure other people are wrong has made no attempt to find out if he is even right.

 

[Ryan]

Originally posted by: HeroOfPellinor

Originally posted by: Ryan
The point I'm trying to make is that there is no SINGULAR truth (religion, god, etc).

Dude. That's what Truth is. It's singular. Ya, we got billions of people coming at it from billions of directions, but there is a singular Truth and, obviously, some are closer to it than others.

As faulty human beings, the full Truth eludes us all and always will, but we can get glimpses of it. You put these glimpses together and you end up with something vaguely resembling the Truth and, well, that's gonna have to suffice and we can all split off into factions on what we think we see in the fuzzier areas.

I find it odd that somebody so sure other people are wrong has made no attempt to find out if he is even right.

What evidence have you provided for your position that a singular truth does exist, besides your own unfounded conclusions? Faith isn't evidence, using faith is a way of ending an argument because you've run out of any rational way of explaining that your core belief is founded on NOTHING, but your own selfish desire to give your life meaning.

Being is life - it needs no explanation - live it.

 

[HeroOfPellinor]

Originally posted by: Ryan

Originally posted by: HeroOfPellinor

Originally posted by: Ryan
The point I'm trying to make is that there is no SINGULAR truth (religion, god, etc).

Dude. That's what Truth is. It's singular. Ya, we got billions of people coming at it from billions of directions, but there is a singular Truth and, obviously, some are closer to it than others.

As faulty human beings, the full Truth eludes us all and always will, but we can get glimpses of it. You put these glimpses together and you end up with something vaguely resembling the Truth and, well, that's gonna have to suffice and we can all split off into factions on what we think we see in the fuzzier areas.

I find it odd that somebody so sure other people are wrong has made no attempt to find out if he is even right.

What evidence have you provided for your position that a singular truth does exist, besides your own unfounded conclusions? Faith isn't evidence, using faith is a way of ending an argument because you've run out of any rational way of explaining what you can't expalin. The unexplained doesn't need to be explained.

We all have faith because we all believe something. If you believe there is no God, then you have faith in that belief.

I believe a singular Truth exists because Truth is absolute. There is a God or there isnt. One of these two options is True.

 

[Ryan]

And that's where we differ. Truth is not absolute. What would you say to the greeks, or some other polytheistic believer that you believed in a singular, all knowing being? Their belief of "Truth" would differ from yours, yet you are ABSOLUTELY sure your belief is the "Truth" - what makes their "truth" any less valid than yours?

 

[sao123]

Originally posted by: Ryan
And that's where we differ. Truth is not absolute. What would you say to the greeks, or some other polytheistic believer that you believed in a singular, all knowing being? Their belief of "Truth" would differ from yours, yet you are ABSOLUTELY sure your belief is the "Truth" - what makes their "truth" any less valid than yours?

Because while beliefs may vary... reality is concrete.
Whether you accept it or not... there is but one reality, and that is truth.
You can apply this particulr question to any particular god.

Does he exist. The answer is ultimately a yes or a no.
At this particular time the answer may be hidden... but it ultimately must exist.

 

[Ryan]

Originally posted by: sao123

Originally posted by: Ryan
And that's where we differ. Truth is not absolute. What would you say to the greeks, or some other polytheistic believer that you believed in a singular, all knowing being? Their belief of "Truth" would differ from yours, yet you are ABSOLUTELY sure your belief is the "Truth" - what makes their "truth" any less valid than yours?

Because while beliefs may vary... reality is concrete.
Whether you accept it or not... there is but one reality, and that is truth.
You can apply this particulr question to any particular god.

Does he exist. The answer is ultimately a yes or a no.
At this particular time the answer may be hidden... but it ultimately must exist.

I see a clear distinction between reality and "Truth". By "Truth", I an referring to a set of beliefs/ideas. These beliefs and ideas are subjective to the person who holds them - they cannot be proven true.

 

[hans030390]

I'm assuming this book is the Bible? Last time I checked, the Bible has a lot more to it than rights and wrongs.

According to the Bible, man is born sinful, and has been ever since Adam and Eve disobeyed God. Sin apparently comes from evil/Satan.

So since we have sin built in with us, we need to have some sort of guide. People do wrong things and don't even realize it. It's just how humans have been.

So God is trying to direct us with the Bible. How would we know any better without it?

Looking back at the title of this thread...are you saying God should be directly telling us what to do, or that if he exists, we should automatically know what is right and wrong? Like I said, we would be clueless without the Bible...God's telling us what to do through that.

I'd like to see what would happen if we raised a human without any outside sources influencing them in any way.

 

[Ryan]

Originally posted by: hans030390
I'm assuming this book is the Bible? Last time I checked, the Bible has a lot more to it than rights and wrongs.

According to the Bible, man is born sinful, and has been ever since Adam and Eve disobeyed God. Sin apparently comes from evil/Satan.

So since we have sin built in with us, we need to have some sort of guide. People do wrong things and don't even realize it. It's just how humans have been.

So God is trying to direct us with the Bible. How would we know any better without it?

Looking back at the title of this thread...are you saying God should be directly telling us what to do, or that if he exists, we should automatically know what is right and wrong? Like I said, we would be clueless without the Bible...God's telling us what to do through that.

I'd like to see what would happen if we raised a human without any outside sources influencing them in any way.

Without Human Influence: http://www.feralchildren.com/en/children.php?tp=0

 

[Moonbeam]

The finger pointing at the moon is not the moon. The three blind men described different aspects of a elephant. God isn't a person or a thing as such. It is a Consciousness people sometimes hook into either for a second or extended periods of time. In either case time means nothing there because it's the eternal now. He who enters the now ceases to exist. In the now there is no room for faith or doubt, belief or non-belief. In the now the beloved and the lover are one as love makes the universe happen.

 

[sao123]

Originally posted by: Ryan

Originally posted by: sao123

Originally posted by: Ryan
And that's where we differ. Truth is not absolute. What would you say to the greeks, or some other polytheistic believer that you believed in a singular, all knowing being? Their belief of "Truth" would differ from yours, yet you are ABSOLUTELY sure your belief is the "Truth" - what makes their "truth" any less valid than yours?

Because while beliefs may vary... reality is concrete.
Whether you accept it or not... there is but one reality, and that is truth.
You can apply this particulr question to any particular god.

Does he exist. The answer is ultimately a yes or a no.
At this particular time the answer may be hidden... but it ultimately must exist.

I see a clear distinction between reality and "Truth". By "Truth", I an referring to a set of beliefs/ideas. These beliefs and ideas are subjective to the person who holds them - they cannot be proven true.

Quite a contradiction... a "truth" in not a belief. truth is fact. true. absolute.
Truths are not subjective to those who hold them, those are opinions and beliefs.

Everyone had different opinions/beliefs about which god exists (if any), but the truth (however veiled or unrevealed as of yet) is whatever it is.


but back to what I was originally getting at...

IMHO - the mere fact that there is no constant in religion is proof that religion is nothing more than a tool to control the masses - everyone is selective in choosing what they want to believe and follow from their religion. There are thousands of sects of christianity - each one professing to know the real "truth", each using the same book and interpretation to support their viewpoints.

The mere existance of thousands of different religions tells me on thing - there is no singular, universal "TRUTH". There are no constant ideals, there is no heaven, no hell, no god - NOTHING. Life is change - that is the only constant and true thing. Accept that fact, and you will be a better person, and live a better life instead of convincing yourself that life continues after death.

The fact that there is no common belief and everyone disagrees... will not negate whatever factually exists. The fact that what finally exists "heaven, hell, god, or nothing" may not have been revealed yet, but that does not change the fact that there will be eventually a concrete anser to that question.

 

[BAMAVOO]

Originally posted by: Ryan

Originally posted by: hans030390
I'm assuming this book is the Bible? Last time I checked, the Bible has a lot more to it than rights and wrongs.

According to the Bible, man is born sinful, and has been ever since Adam and Eve disobeyed God. Sin apparently comes from evil/Satan.

So since we have sin built in with us, we need to have some sort of guide. People do wrong things and don't even realize it. It's just how humans have been.

So God is trying to direct us with the Bible. How would we know any better without it?

Looking back at the title of this thread...are you saying God should be directly telling us what to do, or that if he exists, we should automatically know what is right and wrong? Like I said, we would be clueless without the Bible...God's telling us what to do through that.

I'd like to see what would happen if we raised a human without any outside sources influencing them in any way.

Without Human Influence: http://www.feralchildren.com/en/children.php?tp=0

The first sentence of your link should have stopped you from posting the link in the first place.

"These are children who have supposedly raised by animals.....blah.........blah........blah.........."

 

[her209]

How many people of faith have we seen get into an lion's enclosure only to be attacked and killed or nearly killed? Same goes for the people who try to walk on water.

 

[BAMAVOO]

Originally posted by: her209
How many people of faith have we seen get into an lion's enclosure only to be attacked and killed or nearly killed? Same goes for the people who try to walk on water.

Because they are placing their faith in themselves. The miracles stopped with the Deciples.

 

[Moonbeam]

Maybe miracles are acts performed at a level of consciousness you do not posses.

 

[Whoozyerdaddy]

Topic: If there is really a God then why do people NEED a book to tell them what is right and wrong

Washing Machines are real and they come with manuals too.

I don't understand the OP's point.

 

[jagec]

Originally posted by: Ryan
IMHO - the mere fact that there is no constant in religion is proof that religion is nothing more than a tool to control the masses - everyone is selective in choosing what they want to believe and follow from their religion. There are thousands of sects of christianity - each one professing to know the real "truth", each using the same book and interpretation to support their viewpoints.

The mere existance of thousands of different religions tells me on thing - there is no singular, universal "TRUTH".

A logically untenable statement. Just because people cann't agree doesn't mean they're all right, or all wrong. And it's certainly far from "proof" of anything.

The very fundamentals of science depend on universal truth. The history of western society and the world as a whole has been shaped by those who were able to discover the truths of the world that surrounded them.

It's true that I'm talking physical laws and the underpinnings of technology, things that are provable, and you're talking religion. But the inability to discover or prove a truth in no way implies its nonexistence. Unless you believe that (for example) the laws of relativity came into being only after Einstein started publishing?

Originally posted by: Ryan
Mask your belief in whatever form your want, faith, tell yourself that god is controlling the actions of your life, or has "interveined" in it - in the end, you're limiting your existance, and the quality of life in general.

Drawing lines and putting things in boxes is the only way that we are able to make sense of the world. Don't think that you are somehow more "free" than anyone else, just because you can see other peoples' boxes and not your own.

Even when we mature and are able to open our minds to ideas and concepts that previously existed outside our boxes, we're only able to do this after having built up a pillar of absolutes that must remain inviolate. To shake this pillar leads to mental anguish, soul-searching, and restructuring of one's entire life, to shatter it leads to madness.

We all have our limits. But they are very hard to see from within oneself; it's much easier to spot limitations in others which we do not possess.

Originally posted by: Ryan
And that's where we differ. Truth is not absolute.

Can you say that absolutely?

Our knowledge of the truth will never be complete or absolute. But until you can give me an example of any basic principle of life showing irreproducibilities (ie, one day gravity does not pull downwards), an absolute truth is a more logically tenable position than otherwise. I'm always amazed that relativists feel comfortable getting on airplanes...just because we may not know all aspects of truth, doesn't mean it's not there.

 

[Vic]

What is it about Moonie's posts that always remind me of Fixx lyrics?

"Maybe... someday... "

 

[Moonbeam]

Originally posted by: Vic
What is it about Moonie's posts that always remind me of Fixx lyrics?

"Maybe... someday... "

I have no idea, Vic, as I have never heard of them. but maybe they read my threads or, hold your breath, there is one truth and they use similar words about it too.

 

[Kev]

Originally posted by: Vic

Originally posted by: Ryan

Originally posted by: Vic

Originally posted by: SaltBoy

Originally posted by: Vic
Of course they do. It's just that the God they believe in has very little to do with their fighting. It just provides them with one more excuse among many to hate each other. All war is large scale armed robbery and nothing else.
Anyone who thinks that wars would disappear if religion disappeared is pretty much a clueless idiot and/or a bigot obsessed with controlling the beliefs of others (i.e., religion = crimethink).

Good point, but I don't see religion going away any time soon, and I *DO* see religion as arguably the biggest influence on war. If you want religion in general to go away because you're an agnostic/atheist, then your pushing your agnostic/atheist religion on others who have a more concrete faith.

Religion didn't cause any of the wars that America has fought. War is fought for power and resources.

I don't understand your comment about a "more concrete faith." An atheist can be just as zealous in their faith as a nun if they want to be.

Religion doesn't cause wars because religion isn't a singular object. Religion is a belief system, and that belief system dictates people's actions.

Okay. Name a war where religious belief systems were the primary cause of the war, and provide us with background on that cause.

LMFAO, are you insane?

How about the war in Afghanistan? To weed out terrorists who attack us because of their religious beliefs. Are you really that dense?

 

[Kev]

Originally posted by: Garth

Originally posted by: Vic
"I do not believe X" is agnosticism, i.e. not holding a belief in an unprovable unknown. "I believe not-X" is atheism, i.e. actually holding a belief in an unprovable unknown. In other words, you're comparing apples to oranges.

Not exaclty, but at this point we're arguing over definitions which can be rather fruitless.

Strictly speaking, however, agnosticism and atheism are not mutually exclusive. It is coherent to talk about agnostic atheists and (the more rare) gnostic atheists. The dichotomies between gnosticism/agnosticism and theism/atheism are orthogonal, and they are true dichotomies. There does not exsit a trilemma among theism, agnosticism, and atheism.

I realize this is incongruent with the casual usages of those terms, but it is more useful because it is more accurately descriptive and consistent with the words' etymologies.

 

[Vic]

Originally posted by: Moonbeam

Originally posted by: Vic
What is it about Moonie's posts that always remind me of Fixx lyrics?

"Maybe... someday... "

I have no idea, Vic, as I have never heard of them. but maybe they read my threads or, hold your breath, there is one truth and they use similar words about it too.

I doubt that. The Fixx was an 80's British New Wave group. Their singer and primary lyricist, Cy Curnin, is a Buddhist. The 2 words quoted above are from "Saved by Zero," a song about questing for Nirvana.

 

[Vic]

Originally posted by: Kev

Originally posted by: Vic

Originally posted by: Ryan

Originally posted by: Vic

Originally posted by: SaltBoy

Originally posted by: Vic
Of course they do. It's just that the God they believe in has very little to do with their fighting. It just provides them with one more excuse among many to hate each other. All war is large scale armed robbery and nothing else.
Anyone who thinks that wars would disappear if religion disappeared is pretty much a clueless idiot and/or a bigot obsessed with controlling the beliefs of others (i.e., religion = crimethink).

Good point, but I don't see religion going away any time soon, and I *DO* see religion as arguably the biggest influence on war. If you want religion in general to go away because you're an agnostic/atheist, then your pushing your agnostic/atheist religion on others who have a more concrete faith.

Religion didn't cause any of the wars that America has fought. War is fought for power and resources.

I don't understand your comment about a "more concrete faith." An atheist can be just as zealous in their faith as a nun if they want to be.

Religion doesn't cause wars because religion isn't a singular object. Religion is a belief system, and that belief system dictates people's actions.

Okay. Name a war where religious belief systems were the primary cause of the war, and provide us with background on that cause.

LMFAO, are you insane?

How about the war in Afghanistan? To weed out terrorists who attack us because of their religious beliefs. Are you really that dense?

You think those terrorists attack us because of their/our religious beliefs? Or that we attack them in return for our/their religious beliefs? Are you really that naive?

 

[Kev]

Originally posted by: Vic

Originally posted by: Kev

Originally posted by: Vic

Originally posted by: Ryan

Originally posted by: Vic

Originally posted by: SaltBoy

Originally posted by: Vic
Of course they do. It's just that the God they believe in has very little to do with their fighting. It just provides them with one more excuse among many to hate each other. All war is large scale armed robbery and nothing else.
Anyone who thinks that wars would disappear if religion disappeared is pretty much a clueless idiot and/or a bigot obsessed with controlling the beliefs of others (i.e., religion = crimethink).

Good point, but I don't see religion going away any time soon, and I *DO* see religion as arguably the biggest influence on war. If you want religion in general to go away because you're an agnostic/atheist, then your pushing your agnostic/atheist religion on others who have a more concrete faith.

Religion didn't cause any of the wars that America has fought. War is fought for power and resources.

I don't understand your comment about a "more concrete faith." An atheist can be just as zealous in their faith as a nun if they want to be.

Religion doesn't cause wars because religion isn't a singular object. Religion is a belief system, and that belief system dictates people's actions.

Okay. Name a war where religious belief systems were the primary cause of the war, and provide us with background on that cause.

LMFAO, are you insane?

How about the war in Afghanistan? To weed out terrorists who attack us because of their religious beliefs. Are you really that dense?

You think those terrorists attack us because of their/our religious beliefs? Or that we attack them in return for our/their religious beliefs? Are you really that naive?

They attacked us because we are in their "holy land" and because we support Israel who is in their "holy land." We didn't attack them because of religion, we attacked them because they flew planes into the fvcking World trade center and pentagon.