If there is a such thing as an Abrahamic God, why is he such a tyrant?

[deftron]

"And ... today ... there's Advil"

 

[Cerpin Taxt]

Originally posted by: bamacre

What he's trying to say is that you have a choice, God just knows what you are going to choose.

Believe me, I know what he's trying to say. This is certainly not the first time I've encountered the claim, and if you look only a few posts earlier you'll see where I showed why it is nonsense. Repeating the assertion more times won't make that refutation go away, nor will it make the assertion any less ridiculous.

-Garth

 

[OdiN]

Originally posted by: Garth

Originally posted by: OdiN

I don't know what is so hard about this.

The confoundment is mutual.

You have choice A and B.

Do I? How is it that I can choose B if it is known that I must select A? If I cannot choose B, but must only select A, how is that appropriately described as a choice? I've already asked questions to this effect, and until you have answers for them, you're not really doing anything but re-asserting the same silliness.

You can choose A or B. Just because God knows what you will choose does not take away the fact that you are the one making the choice. He is not making you choose A or B. You are making that decision yourself.

I already answered this nonsense. You are invited to go back and address those arguments if you think they are unsound. If all you can do is ignore the arguments that refute you only to perpetually re-assert your demonstrably unsound position, then I feel confident that the more rational position is already plainly evident.

-Garth

I answered this all already buy you are not getting it.

It is NOT known what your choice is (other than God knowing) - Okay...fine. You have a situation to which there are 1,245 possible choices. You make a choice. Why did you make the choice you did? Was it because you decided yourself to choose that option, or was it because a being which you don't believe exists already knew about and made you make that choice?

This is ludicrous. Let's say you have a gun. You can fire it, or you can set it down. Let's say those are the only choices you have just for the sake of simplicity. You decided to set it down. How can you possibly think that just because God knew you were going to set it down (just assume it's true for now) that you were refused the choice of what to do?

The choice existed. If there were no choices, then it would only be possible for you to do one thing. There wouldn't be another option. If you tried to fire the gun, instead you would put it down because you were forced to do so by an external force???

So how is it that you can select choice B if it is known that you must choose A? Who knows it? Do you know that you must choose A? If you yourself are presented with options A or B, you will choose A or B. That's all there is to it. Nobody is forcing you to choose either. It's all up to you.

Let's say that I know that you will choose A. Does that all of a sudden make it NOT a choice? That's ridiculous. Just because someone...anyone...has knowledge of a future choice by you does not mean that you are forced to choose that. It's still up to you.

If I buy into what you are saying here...then pretty much your entire life is laid out and you have no control over it whatsoever. If you shoot someone, then you shouldn't go to jail becuase you didn't have a choice? You had to do it....?

Knowledge of what you are GOING to do does not change the fact that it is YOU who are going to do it and YOU who are going to make the choices that lead to these events.

 

[OdiN]

Originally posted by: Garth

Originally posted by: bamacre

What he's trying to say is that you have a choice, God just knows what you are going to choose.

Believe me, I know what he's trying to say. This is certainly not the first time I've encountered the claim, and if you look only a few posts earlier you'll see where I showed why it is nonsense. Repeating the assertion more times won't make that refutation go away, nor will it make the assertion any less ridiculous.

-Garth

Repeating your assertion that my assertion is nonsence will not make mine go away either, nor will it make your assertion any more or less valid.

 

[Cerpin Taxt]

Originally posted by: OdiN

I answered this all already buy you are not getting it.

No, you didn't. My refutations remain heretofore unaddressed by you.

It is NOT known what your choice is (other than God knowing) -

It's not a good idea to begin your argument with an internally contradictory statment. If God knows the outcome, then it *IS* known, even if not to you. You might as well have said "Squares don't have corners (except for those pointy vertexes where the sides intersect)."

Okay...fine. You have a situation to which there are 1,245 possible choices.

If God knows inerrantly that I will choose one of them, then it is impossible for me to choose any of the 1,244 other alternatives. If I were to choose one of those, God's knowledge would be wrong, but that can't happen. That's why none of those other 1,244 are possible, despite your erroneous claim.

You make a choice. Why did you make the choice you did? Was it because you decided yourself to choose that option, or was it because a being which you don't believe exists already knew about and made you make that choice?

Obviously it must be the latter since I could not have deviated from that which was already known by God.

This is ludicrous.

Yes, your incredulity certainly is.

Let's say you have a gun. You can fire it, or you can set it down. Let's say those are the only choices you have just for the sake of simplicity. You decided to set it down. How can you possibly think that just because God knew you were going to set it down (just assume it's true for now) that you were refused the choice of what to do?

The answer will be obvious when you try to explain how it was legitimately possible for me to choose to fire the gun if God already knew that I would not. A real choice only exists where multiple alternative outcomes are legitimately possible. When only one outcome is possible (that which God knows) then the person HAS NO CHOICE but to comply with what God knows, despite all appearances.

The choice existed.

No, it didn't. When A is the only option, and B is not a possible choice, then no choice exists.

If there were no choices, then it would only be possible for you to do one thing. There wouldn't be another option. If you tried to fire the gun, instead you would put it down because you were forced to do so by an external force???

Precisely.

So how is it that you can select choice B if it is known that you must choose A?

That is the question I have put to you. If I can't select B, how can it be considered a real option?

Who knows it?

God does, according to you.

Do you know that you must choose A?

Irrelevant.

If you yourself are presented with options A or B, you will choose A or B. That's all there is to it. Nobody is forcing you to choose either. It's all up to you.

Nonsense. I had no say in the outcome at all -- it only APPEARS that I do. In reality, the outcome was determined when God decided to create precisely the universe in which he knew that outcome was inevitable. I already covered all of this in a response to you to which you have not responded.

Let's say that I know that you will choose A. Does that all of a sudden make it NOT a choice? That's ridiculous. Just because someone...anyone...has knowledge of a future choice by you does not mean that you are forced to choose that. It's still up to you.

Your foreknowledge is not supposed to be infallible as God's is. How conveniently we forgot that little detail, no?

If I buy into what you are saying here...then pretty much your entire life is laid out and you have no control over it whatsoever. If you shoot someone, then you shouldn't go to jail becuase you didn't have a choice? You had to do it....?

That is exactly the consequence of a universe in which there exists an entity with infallible foreknowledge: determinism.

Knowledge of what you are GOING to do does not change the fact that it is YOU who are going to do it and YOU who are going to make the choices that lead to these events.

So you say, but such as been more than adequately refuted already.

-Garth

 

[Cerpin Taxt]

Originally posted by: OdiN

Repeating your assertion that my assertion is nonsence will not make mine go away either, nor will it make your assertion any more or less valid.

That is why I supplied arguments in a reply to you that you haven't even acknowledged. It's really quite silly to chide me for providing only assertions when the arguments which substantiate those assertions are staring you in the face and you refuse to address them.

-Garth

 

[OdiN]

I didn't leave anything unaddressed.

You have a choice. It is as simple as that.

So...how is it possible for you to choose A insead of B if God knows what you are going to pick? Simple. Instead of choosing B, you would choose A. The decision is still up to you. I don't understand why you don't understand that. Just because God knows the outcome of an event does not make it impossible for you to choose A or B.

You are creating the future by your decision. The fact that God (or anyone for that matter) has pre-knowledge of what you choose does not change the fact that it is you who chose it. You are not "complying with what God knows" you are simply making a choice. That's all there is to it. It's that simple.


I said the choice existed...to which you said if A is the only option (which it isn't, B is an option too), and B is not a possible choice, then no choice exists. This is a fallacy. Whether you admit it or not, the choice was there. How is B not a possible choice? Only because you decided it wasn't. And that doesn't work.


Let's say that you know the future. You know that you are going to choose A, so instead of choosing A, you choose B. So how could you have known you were going to choose A in the first place if you didn't choose A? That's the problem with knowing the future - it's beyond your understanding.


You say that you have no say in the outcome and that it only appears that you do. That the reality is that God created the universe and knew the outcome. This is flawed logic. Just because He knew the outcome doesn't mean that you were forced to do something you didn't decide to do.

The choice is created. It exists. What you decide to do is up to you. You decide the outcome - not some external force. You are assuming that God created everything and laid it out and made everyone do exactly as he wanted. That isn't true. You were put into this world and are free to do as you choose. God did not write the script for your life - you did (of course there are external forces like parents and things that do cause you to do something that you perhaps don't want to or before you were able to control your own body you went places you had no control over...but ignore all that). So no...He didn't write the script. But He does know what it says. He's not in there editing it and changing it around and forcing you to make certain chioces.

Future knowledge does not prevent people in the past from having a choice. It's that simple.

I am going to bed now. Because I CHOOSE TO. I wasn't flung over there by sheer will of God and forced to go to sleep. I could have just as easily chose to stay up another hour. It was up to me to make that decision.

Needless to say, you have claimed to have refuted this...but I have found no solid evidence to that fact.

Good night.

 

[OdiN]

Originally posted by: Garth

Originally posted by: OdiN

Repeating your assertion that my assertion is nonsence will not make mine go away either, nor will it make your assertion any more or less valid.

That is why I supplied arguments in a reply to you that you haven't even acknowledged. It's really quite silly to chide me for providing only assertions when the arguments which substantiate those assertions are staring you in the face and you refuse to address them.

-Garth

Where are they? I haven't found them.

 

[Cerpin Taxt]

Originally posted by: OdiN
I didn't leave anything unaddressed.

If you would only take a cursory examination of the previous page, you'll find a response to you by me that you have yet to address. Seriously, just a little bit of effort on your part would have shown this to be the case.

You have a choice. It is as simple as that.

This is something that is inconsistent with the reality that you describe.

So...how is it possible for you to choose A insead of B if God knows what you are going to pick? Simple. Instead of choosing B, you would choose A. The decision is still up to you. I don't understand why you don't understand that. Just because God knows the outcome of an event does not make it impossible for you to choose A or B.

You haven't answered the question. Let me re-phrase it once more: If God knows I will pick A, then how can B be accurately characterized as a legitimately possible option? What possibility is there that I will pick B if God already knows that I will pick A?

You are creating the future by your decision.

Utter nonsense. How could God know the future if it didn't exist?

The fact that God (or anyone for that matter) has pre-knowledge of what you choose does not change the fact that it is you who chose it.

That's not what I'm saying, genius. I'm saying that the event isn't properly described as a "choice" because in reality only one outcome is possible: that which God knows.

You said exactly that yourself when you said:

If there were no choices, then it would only be possible for you to do one thing. There wouldn't be another option.

Yet in the reality that you describe, it *IS* only possible to do one thing -- that which is contained in God's foreknowledge. You can weasel around all you want saying "whatever you pick, that's what God knew you would do," but it won't change the fact that you were only ever capable to doing the one thing that God knew. You could not have done any differently, which means that you had no choice.

You are not "complying with what God knows" you are simply making a choice. That's all there is to it. It's that simple.

Yet you are completely unable to explain HOW the event of me making such a decision IS REALLY A CHOICE. Another illustrative question:

If we were to suppose that at time T God knows inerrantly that at time T+10 I will choose A and not B, can I choose B? If not, then my only option is A, and I have no choice. If I can choose B, then it must be possible for God's knowledge to be wrong, because it was already established that God knew beforehand that I would pick A.

So which is it? Is it the case that I have no choice, or is it the case that God's foreknowledge can be wrong?

I said the choice existed...to which you said if A is the only option (which it isn't, B is an option too), and B is not a possible choice, then no choice exists. This is a fallacy.

OH REALLY?!?! A fallacy, you say? Then please be so kind as to tell me which fallacy I've committed. They have names, you know.

Whether you admit it or not, the choice was there.

Absurdity.

How is B not a possible choice?

Because God's knowledge cannot be wrong.

Only because you decided it wasn't. And that doesn't work.

But that isn't the reason, genius, so your claim is as empty as the rest of your assertions.

Let's say that you know the future. You know that you are going to choose A, so instead of choosing A, you choose B. So how could you have known you were going to choose A in the first place if you didn't choose A? That's the problem with knowing the future - it's beyond your understanding.

You speak only for your own handicapped comprehension. I understand the consequences of it just fine.

You say that you have no say in the outcome and that it only appears that you do. That the reality is that God created the universe and knew the outcome. This is flawed logic.

OH REALLY?!?! So what rule of logic did I violate? Care to name that one, too, Poindexter?

Just because He knew the outcome doesn't mean that you were forced to do something you didn't decide to do.

You can justifiably make this assertion when you can explain how I am free to choose something that God does not already know will happen. If I cannot do otherwise, then we have fulfilled the very definition of determinism. This has all been explained ad nauseum, and only your own incredulity remains.

{snip repetitious nonsensical and baseless assertions}

Come back when you can mount a cogent argument... which I expect to be never.

-Garth

 

Originally posted by: OdiN
I didn't leave anything unaddressed.

You have a choice. It is as simple as that.

So...how is it possible for you to choose A insead of B if God knows what you are going to pick? Simple. Instead of choosing B, you would choose A. The decision is still up to you. I don't understand why you don't understand that. Just because God knows the outcome of an event does not make it impossible for you to choose A or B.

You are creating the future by your decision. The fact that God (or anyone for that matter) has pre-knowledge of what you choose does not change the fact that it is you who chose it. You are not "complying with what God knows" you are simply making a choice. That's all there is to it. It's that simple.


I said the choice existed...to which you said if A is the only option (which it isn't, B is an option too), and B is not a possible choice, then no choice exists. This is a fallacy. Whether you admit it or not, the choice was there. How is B not a possible choice? Only because you decided it wasn't. And that doesn't work.


Let's say that you know the future. You know that you are going to choose A, so instead of choosing A, you choose B. So how could you have known you were going to choose A in the first place if you didn't choose A? That's the problem with knowing the future - it's beyond your understanding.


You say that you have no say in the outcome and that it only appears that you do. That the reality is that God created the universe and knew the outcome. This is flawed logic. Just because He knew the outcome doesn't mean that you were forced to do something you didn't decide to do.

The choice is created. It exists. What you decide to do is up to you. You decide the outcome - not some external force. You are assuming that God created everything and laid it out and made everyone do exactly as he wanted. That isn't true. You were put into this world and are free to do as you choose. God did not write the script for your life - you did (of course there are external forces like parents and things that do cause you to do something that you perhaps don't want to or before you were able to control your own body you went places you had no control over...but ignore all that). So no...He didn't write the script. But He does know what it says. He's not in there editing it and changing it around and forcing you to make certain chioces.

Future knowledge does not prevent people in the past from having a choice. It's that simple.

I am going to bed now. Because I CHOOSE TO. I wasn't flung over there by sheer will of God and forced to go to sleep. I could have just as easily chose to stay up another hour. It was up to me to make that decision.

Needless to say, you have claimed to have refuted this...but I have found no solid evidence to that fact.

Good night.

With your current arguement he is correct......however there is a flaw in his logic that you have not seen or at least not addressed.



as to why I haven't pointed it out........well it is pointless even though I have a big long reply typed out and I'm slightly torn between the two viewpoints.

 

[DanTMWTMP]

and "there's paradise" if you believe in him? if life's so hard, isn't paradise just wishful thinking? and the whole paradise hell thing, it's seem waay two-sided and simple to me .


EDIT: meanwhile, i'm going to go run out naked outside for a bit and yell because God found it odd today that he should make me make this decision, as since everything is predestined by him, instead of atoms clashing together, chemicals and electrons working within the confines of the laws of physics in our brains deciding it for us.

 

[C'DaleRider]

Originally posted by: Garth

Originally posted by: OdiN
I didn't leave anything unaddressed.

If you would only take a cursory examination of the previous page, you'll find a response to you by me that you have yet to address. Seriously, just a little bit of effort on your part would have shown this to be the case.

You have a choice. It is as simple as that.

This is something that is inconsistent with the reality that you describe.

So...how is it possible for you to choose A insead of B if God knows what you are going to pick? Simple. Instead of choosing B, you would choose A. The decision is still up to you. I don't understand why you don't understand that. Just because God knows the outcome of an event does not make it impossible for you to choose A or B.

You haven't answered the question. Let me re-phrase it once more: If God knows I will pick A, then how can B be accurately characterized as a legitimately possible option? What possibility is there that I will pick B if God already knows that I will pick A?

You are creating the future by your decision.

Utter nonsense. How could God know the future if it didn't exist?

The fact that God (or anyone for that matter) has pre-knowledge of what you choose does not change the fact that it is you who chose it.

That's not what I'm saying, genius. I'm saying that the event isn't properly described as a "choice" because in reality only one outcome is possible: that which God knows.

You said exactly that yourself when you said:

If there were no choices, then it would only be possible for you to do one thing. There wouldn't be another option.

Yet in the reality that you describe, it *IS* only possible to do one thing -- that which is contained in God's foreknowledge. You can weasel around all you want saying "whatever you pick, that's what God knew you would do," but it won't change the fact that you were only ever capable to doing the one thing that God knew. You could not have done any differently, which means that you had no choice.

You are not "complying with what God knows" you are simply making a choice. That's all there is to it. It's that simple.

Yet you are completely unable to explain HOW the event of me making such a decision IS REALLY A CHOICE. Another illustrative question:

If we were to suppose that at time T God knows inerrantly that at time T+10 I will choose A and not B, can I choose B? If not, then my only option is A, and I have no choice. If I can choose B, then it must be possible for God's knowledge to be wrong, because it was already established that God knew beforehand that I would pick A.

So which is it? Is it the case that I have no choice, or is it the case that God's foreknowledge can be wrong?

I said the choice existed...to which you said if A is the only option (which it isn't, B is an option too), and B is not a possible choice, then no choice exists. This is a fallacy.

OH REALLY?!?! A fallacy, you say? Then please be so kind as to tell me which fallacy I've committed. They have names, you know.

Whether you admit it or not, the choice was there.

Absurdity.

How is B not a possible choice?

Because God's knowledge cannot be wrong.

Only because you decided it wasn't. And that doesn't work.

But that isn't the reason, genius, so your claim is as empty as the rest of your assertions.

Let's say that you know the future. You know that you are going to choose A, so instead of choosing A, you choose B. So how could you have known you were going to choose A in the first place if you didn't choose A? That's the problem with knowing the future - it's beyond your understanding.

You speak only for your own handicapped comprehension. I understand the consequences of it just fine.

You say that you have no say in the outcome and that it only appears that you do. That the reality is that God created the universe and knew the outcome. This is flawed logic.

OH REALLY?!?! So what rule of logic did I violate? Care to name that one, too, Poindexter?

Just because He knew the outcome doesn't mean that you were forced to do something you didn't decide to do.

You can justifiably make this assertion when you can explain how I am free to choose something that God does not already know will happen. If I cannot do otherwise, then we have fulfilled the very definition of determinism. This has all been explained ad nauseum, and only your own incredulity remains.

{snip repetitious nonsensical and baseless assertions}

Come back when you can mount a cogent argument... which I expect to be never.

-Garth

All of this discussionon determinism and God knowing what you'll do, so there's no free will.........and with God's all-knowing ability, it seems that no one has addressed the possibility that MAYBE God, with his omnipitence, can see the outcomes of any and all choices you MAY choose to make, much like a good chess player can see ahead 6 moves of his opponent.

Maybe God can actually "see" what the outcome is for each decision we can make but has yet to "see" what decision we will make......much like the branching of a tree, He sees them all but cannot predict where we will trave. While God can see the end result of all our choices, it's up to us to present to God the choice we will make, thereby determining the outcome......an outcome God already knows that will happen but cannot predict that we will follow until we choose to take that or this particular path.

So, in the end, I don't see the God-knowing thing as "I know you'll choose A over B," but instead more of a "I know what the consequences of you choosing A or B will be, but your choice of A or B is up to you. I do know what the end result will be with either choice, but the path is yours to decide upon."

 

[aidanjm]

more importantly, what kind of sick, pathetic masochist would follow such a god?

 

[meltdown75]

Nice thread guys, enjoyed the read. :thumbsup:

 

[bamacre]

Originally posted by: aidanjm
more importantly, what kind of sick, pathetic masochist would follow such a god?

Some people think you're sick.

 

[OdiN]

choice ( P ) Pronunciation Key (chois)
n.
The act of choosing; selection.
The power, right, or liberty to choose; option.
One that is chosen.
A number or variety from which to choose: a wide choice of styles and colors.
The best or most preferable part.
Care in choosing.
An alternative.


Maybe that will help you.

You keep saying that you don't have a choice. Why? Prove why you cannot have a choice. You haven't done that.

As I have said before....the fact that you make a choice and it is known does not preclude you from making the choice in the first place.

What you do is up to you. You select A or B. God does not make you select A or B.

Knowledge about an outcome is one thing. Taking a proactive effort to control the outcome is another completely different thing.

Thus ends the lesson for this morning - I'm going to work. Got bills to pay.

Oh...yeah and it was my choice to go to work too.