If there is a such thing as an Abrahamic God, why is he such a tyrant?

[OdiN]

Originally posted by: Jeff7

So yes He is giving freedom of thought, and though He knows what your thoughts are, He is not making you think them. Knowing that you are thinking something and making you think something are two completely different things. Yes He has infinite power and knowledge...this doesn't automatically dictate what His decisions will be or should be. That's where your argument falls flat there.

This is about where it starts going in circles.


God lays out the plans for Jeff7. He sees in the future, "Huh, he'll decide that I don't exist. Obvious design flaw I suppose. But hey, I'll go ahead and send the plans to Earth, let Jeff be born imperfectly, and punish him for the decisions that I already know he's going to make on his own. I should feel guilty about that, but I don't. Of course, I make up the rules of ethics in the Universe, so hah! to me."
In that sense, I think it's more like God's sick sense of humor as he plays with his human bacteria colonies.

Who ever said that we are perfect? I'm not refuting the fact that EVERYONE on this earth is imperfect.

So..you decided that God does not exist. That was your choice though. Would you rather be forced into deciding that God does exist, even if you didn't want to?

Again...I'm saying you are trying to understand something that is so far beyond your capability of understanding. Not that you're stupid or anything - I don't understand it either. But you don't have to understand everything in the universe to have faith.

 

[deftron]

Ok then.... answer this..


If an Abrahamic God exists ... which one is the right one?
And how do you know that?


How do you know that the religion you chose (with the human "free-will" falacies you mentioned above) is the right one...

What makes you beieve in the Christianity over the Judaism or the Islam ?
They all have the same God, just different prophets... or lack of

Or maybe God isn't Abrahamic, maybe the Hindus or Buddists got it right...

How do you know which one is righ?
Why does God punish those that believe in the "wrong" faith?

 

[db]

74 posts--I'm not even going to try and read all that.

Among belivers, there are so many different positions on this.
What makes sense to you? According to some Christians, once Jesus showed up that put an end to the Old Testament ways of doing things (that would include Abrahamic) . He was about love others as yourself, rather than killing your enemies.
Unfortunately, many today want to kill their enemies, and they consider themselves to be Christians. They also happen to be far Right. How those two got mixed up, I just can't figure out. Why can't people let God do his job, whatever that is, rather than assuming what His job is and doing it themselves?! WTF?

 

[bamacre]

Originally posted by: Jeff7

So yes He is giving freedom of thought, and though He knows what your thoughts are, He is not making you think them. Knowing that you are thinking something and making you think something are two completely different things. Yes He has infinite power and knowledge...this doesn't automatically dictate what His decisions will be or should be. That's where your argument falls flat there.

This is about where it starts going in circles.


God lays out the plans for Jeff7. He sees in the future, "Huh, he'll decide that I don't exist. Obvious design flaw I suppose. But hey, I'll go ahead and send the plans to Earth, let Jeff be born imperfectly, and punish him for the decisions that I already know he's going to make on his own. I should feel guilty about that, but I don't. Of course, I make up the rules of ethics in the Universe, so hah! to me."
In that sense, I think it's more like God's sick sense of humor as he plays with his human bacteria colonies.

The basis of your comment relies on your thinking that God is omnipotent. He may, or may not be. Even if He is, it doesn't mean He uses it. I believe that Jeff7's life is laid out by Jeff7. Do you not believe in free will?

 

[OdiN]

Originally posted by: deftron
Ok then.... answer this..


If an Abrahamic God exists ... which one is the right one?
And how do you know that?


How do you know that the religion you chose (with the human "free-will" falacies you mentioned above) is the right one...

What makes you beieve in the Christianity over the Judaism or the Islam ?
They all have the same God, just different prophets... or lack of

Or maybe God isn't Abrahamic, maybe the Hindus or Buddists got it right...

How do you know which one is righ?
Why does God punish those that believe in the "wrong" faith?

How do I know? Well...experience.

This may sound ridiculous to some, but I have felt the presence of God. It is not a feeling that can be explained...it's just something that when it happens...you KNOW...without a doubt. It's....an overwhelming sensation of joy and just so much more. If you ever experience it you will just know and be comforted.

Not saying that you have to believe in a specific religion. This is why (as stated earlier) I do not really like religion. Religion was made of man, not God. It's more of a personal thing to me - I don't have to be a certain religion.

Of course, I would disagree with Buddhism or Hinduism - not that there isn't good that comes from these religons or that the people who are of these religions are evil.

I don't think that God is as cut and dry as maybe we think. Can a devout Buddhist get to heaven? I belive so - if this person has lived a good life and loved and cared for others. I think that if you have lived a worthy life you can get into heaven.

I know a lot of Christians say you must believe in God and Jesus and take Jesus as your only saviour etc....but I'm not completely positive of this. I mean...I could be wrong...maybe this is a requirement. I do not know for sure.

 

[bamacre]

Originally posted by: deftron
Ok then.... answer this..


If an Abrahamic God exists ... which one is the right one?
And how do you know that?


How do you know that the religion you chose (with the human "free-will" falacies you mentioned above) is the right one...

What makes you beieve in the Christianity over the Judaism or the Islam ?
They all have the same God, just different prophets... or lack of

Or maybe God isn't Abrahamic, maybe the Hindus or Buddists got it right...

How do you know which one is righ?
Why does God punish those that believe in the "wrong" faith?

There are many paths up the mountain, but only one view.

I don't believe that there is one right religion, not the way you see it. I believe it possible for any man to enter Heaven, be the man Jew, Christian, Hundu, etc. In all honesty, those are labels man has given to himself. God does not view man as black or white, or Christian or Jew. I believe He has the power to see past that, in fact, man has the power to see past that. In God's eyes, I believe, there are no groups of men. Just billions of individual men. We are not Americans, nor Russians, nor Christians, nor Jews. We are not white, nor black, we are not lawyers, nor doctors. We are only men. The rest are mental illusians.

 

[OdiN]

Originally posted by: bamacre

Originally posted by: deftron
Ok then.... answer this..


If an Abrahamic God exists ... which one is the right one?
And how do you know that?


How do you know that the religion you chose (with the human "free-will" falacies you mentioned above) is the right one...

What makes you beieve in the Christianity over the Judaism or the Islam ?
They all have the same God, just different prophets... or lack of

Or maybe God isn't Abrahamic, maybe the Hindus or Buddists got it right...

How do you know which one is righ?
Why does God punish those that believe in the "wrong" faith?

There are many paths up the mountain, but only one view.

I don't believe that there is one right religion, not the way you see it. I believe it possible for any man to enter Heaven, be the man Jew, Christian, Hundu, etc. In all honesty, those are labels man has given to himself. God does not view man as black or white, or Christian or Jew. I believe He has the power to see past that, in fact, man has the power to see past that. In God's eyes, I believe, there are no groups of men. Just billions of individual men. We are not Americans, nor Russians, nor Christians, nor Jews. We are not white, nor black, we are not lawyers, nor doctors. We are only men. The rest are mental illusians.

:thumbsup:

 

[deftron]

Originally posted by: OdiN

Originally posted by: bamacre

Originally posted by: deftron
Ok then.... answer this..


If an Abrahamic God exists ... which one is the right one?
And how do you know that?


How do you know that the religion you chose (with the human "free-will" falacies you mentioned above) is the right one...

What makes you beieve in the Christianity over the Judaism or the Islam ?
They all have the same God, just different prophets... or lack of

Or maybe God isn't Abrahamic, maybe the Hindus or Buddists got it right...

How do you know which one is righ?
Why does God punish those that believe in the "wrong" faith?

There are many paths up the mountain, but only one view.

I don't believe that there is one right religion, not the way you see it. I believe it possible for any man to enter Heaven, be the man Jew, Christian, Hundu, etc. In all honesty, those are labels man has given to himself. God does not view man as black or white, or Christian or Jew. I believe He has the power to see past that, in fact, man has the power to see past that. In God's eyes, I believe, there are no groups of men. Just billions of individual men. We are not Americans, nor Russians, nor Christians, nor Jews. We are not white, nor black, we are not lawyers, nor doctors. We are only men. The rest are mental illusians.

:thumbsup:

That makes no sense...

If you have all the "beliefs" on your own that contradict what is written in
relgious books of worship... why do you even believe in an established God...

Why don't you just believe in yourself?

 

[bamacre]

Originally posted by: deftron

Originally posted by: OdiN

Originally posted by: bamacre

Originally posted by: deftron
Ok then.... answer this..


If an Abrahamic God exists ... which one is the right one?
And how do you know that?


How do you know that the religion you chose (with the human "free-will" falacies you mentioned above) is the right one...

What makes you beieve in the Christianity over the Judaism or the Islam ?
They all have the same God, just different prophets... or lack of

Or maybe God isn't Abrahamic, maybe the Hindus or Buddists got it right...

How do you know which one is righ?
Why does God punish those that believe in the "wrong" faith?

There are many paths up the mountain, but only one view.

I don't believe that there is one right religion, not the way you see it. I believe it possible for any man to enter Heaven, be the man Jew, Christian, Hundu, etc. In all honesty, those are labels man has given to himself. God does not view man as black or white, or Christian or Jew. I believe He has the power to see past that, in fact, man has the power to see past that. In God's eyes, I believe, there are no groups of men. Just billions of individual men. We are not Americans, nor Russians, nor Christians, nor Jews. We are not white, nor black, we are not lawyers, nor doctors. We are only men. The rest are mental illusians.

:thumbsup:

That makes no sense...

If you have all the "beliefs" on your own that contradict what is written in
religious books of worship... why do you even believe in an established God...

Why don't you just believe in yourself?

My belief in myself is only possible with my belief in God. Finding God in a book is like finding peace in the world. You must find God within yourself, much like you must find peace within yourself.

The Bible is still a good book, but some of it has been rewritten, and some parts deleted, althouth the just of it may not be destroyed, for they exist not just in the book, but in the hearts of many. People can only be fooled to a point. Good liars know this point well.

 

[mwtgg]

Originally posted by: bamacre

Originally posted by: mwtgg

Originally posted by: OdiN
Jeff7 said: "He's knowingly creating a defective person, and then punishing that person for being defective."


Okay...this isn't true. What He is doing is creating a person, and letting them decide what they want to do or not do with their life. Then said person is judged based on the decisions that the PERSON, not God, made.

What about people who are mentally retarded or crippled in some way? They chose that?

I believe that this is not a defect, not at all. It is a gift. However, my explanation of this is probably very hard to understand, and to explain.

IT'S A GIFT?! Wow.

 

[Hayabusa Rider]

If there is one thing that brings out the stupidity of people is these religion threads.


Point is that no one objectively can state anything about God. You may believe something but you don't know crap.

What a waste of electrons.

 

[deftron]

"knowing" anything is impossible

since existence itself could be a figment.

 

[OdiN]

Originally posted by: Hayabusa Rider
If there is one thing that brings out the stupidity of people is these religion threads.


Point is that no one objectively can state anything about God. You may believe something but you don't know crap.

What a waste of electrons.

I do KNOW something...just because you do not or don't believe that I do doesn't mean that I don't.

 

[Cerpin Taxt]

Originally posted by: OdiN

Okay...you are not understanding this here. Yes...God is all knowing. Yes... He knows what you are going to do and what you are thinking and all your choices. This is true. But the fact is...they are still yours. You do not know everything that will happen, therefore you do have a choice. God knows the choice and isn't changing that choice. That is how you get free will. Just because He knows a chioce you are going to make is bad doesn't mean He will change it for you.

I think it is you that is confused. No one is saying that God is changing anybody's thoughts or actions. What we're saying is that in order for God to know what the future will be, then the future must already be determined, and therefore it is quite unchangeable. If it were possible to choose an outcome that was different than that which was already known by God, it would be tantamount to the possibility that God's knowledge is wrong. That possibility is already precluded in the definition of God's omniscience, however. Therefore, it is inconsistent to suppose that a person has legitimately free choices while the future is already known inerrantly by God.

So yes He is giving freedom of thought, and though He knows what your thoughts are, He is not making you think them. Knowing that you are thinking something and making you think something are two completely different things.

They may be, but knowing the outcome of a chain of events and still choosing to set it in motion is generally considered grounds for culpability for the consequences of that chain of events. It is as though God is an inerrant marksman, knowing infallibly every target that his bullets will hit. When God created the universe, knowing the future infallibly, He similarly "fired a bullet" knowing everything that would result. He is therefore as culpable for the events that transpire in the universe as such a marksman is for the path of his bullet. If the bullet kills a person, we do not say that the even though the marksman knew where it was going, he didn't make it go there. That would be silly, and so it is with your claim.

Yes He has infinite power and knowledge...this doesn't automatically dictate what His decisions will be or should be. That's where your argument falls flat there.

Quite not. I wonder how you could explain that God knows everything yet does not already know what all of his decisions are. That you don't see the glaring inconsistency is frankly perplexing.

And yeah...the whole error does not compute thing....it's kinda like asking a computer to give you the last digit of Pi.

The last digit of pi doesn't exist, to the best of our knowledge. In that respect, I would agree that God is identical.

-Garth

 

[spunkz]

Originally posted by: bamacre

Originally posted by: deftron

That makes no sense...

If you have all the "beliefs" on your own that contradict what is written in
religious books of worship... why do you even believe in an established God...

Why don't you just believe in yourself?

My belief in myself is only possible with my belief in God. Finding God in a book is like finding peace in the world. You must find God within yourself, much like you must find peace within yourself.

The Bible is still a good book, but some of it has been rewritten, and some parts deleted, althouth the just of it may not be destroyed, for they exist not just in the book, but in the hearts of many. People can only be fooled to a point. Good liars know this point well.

which parts are you referring to having been rewritten or deleted? it's my understanding that there have been no content changes found when comparing the hebrew/greek texts of the bible now to ancient copies such as the dead sea scrolls.

 

[Cerpin Taxt]

Originally posted by: OdiN

Originally posted by: Hayabusa Rider
If there is one thing that brings out the stupidity of people is these religion threads.


Point is that no one objectively can state anything about God. You may believe something but you don't know crap.

What a waste of electrons.

I do KNOW something...just because you do not or don't believe that I do doesn't mean that I don't.

With all due respect, some men equally "know" that they are Napoleon Bonaparte. If your "knowledge" isn't something objectively demonstrable, it isn't appropriately described as knowledge.

-Garth

 

[OdiN]

Originally posted by: Garth

Originally posted by: OdiN

Originally posted by: Hayabusa Rider
If there is one thing that brings out the stupidity of people is these religion threads.


Point is that no one objectively can state anything about God. You may believe something but you don't know crap.

What a waste of electrons.

I do KNOW something...just because you do not or don't believe that I do doesn't mean that I don't.

With all due respect, some men equally "know" that they are Napoleon Bonaparte. If your "knowledge" isn't something objectively demonstrable, it isn't appropriately described as knowledge.

-Garth

It's just an understanding....if you don't posess it, you can't understand it. Hard to accept, I know, but I'm not asking you to.

 

[spunkz]

Originally posted by: Garth

Originally posted by: OdiN

Okay...you are not understanding this here. Yes...God is all knowing. Yes... He knows what you are going to do and what you are thinking and all your choices. This is true. But the fact is...they are still yours. You do not know everything that will happen, therefore you do have a choice. God knows the choice and isn't changing that choice. That is how you get free will. Just because He knows a chioce you are going to make is bad doesn't mean He will change it for you.

I think it is you that is confused. No one is saying that God is changing anybody's thoughts or actions. What we're saying is that in order for God to know what the future will be, then the future must already be determined, and therefore it is quite unchangeable. If it were possible to choose an outcome that was different than that which was already known by God, it would be tantamount to the possibility that God's knowledge is wrong. That possibility is already precluded in the definition of God's omniscience, however. Therefore, it is inconsistent to suppose that a person has legitimately free choices while the future is already known inerrantly by God.

if God exists outside of time, as would the God of the Bible, i don't see any reason why he can't give you freedom to choose something and yet still know what it is that you will eventually choose.

 

[Cerpin Taxt]

Originally posted by: spunkz

Originally posted by: Garth

Originally posted by: OdiN

Okay...you are not understanding this here. Yes...God is all knowing. Yes... He knows what you are going to do and what you are thinking and all your choices. This is true. But the fact is...they are still yours. You do not know everything that will happen, therefore you do have a choice. God knows the choice and isn't changing that choice. That is how you get free will. Just because He knows a chioce you are going to make is bad doesn't mean He will change it for you.

I think it is you that is confused. No one is saying that God is changing anybody's thoughts or actions. What we're saying is that in order for God to know what the future will be, then the future must already be determined, and therefore it is quite unchangeable. If it were possible to choose an outcome that was different than that which was already known by God, it would be tantamount to the possibility that God's knowledge is wrong. That possibility is already precluded in the definition of God's omniscience, however. Therefore, it is inconsistent to suppose that a person has legitimately free choices while the future is already known inerrantly by God.

if God exists outside of time, as would the God of the Bible, i don't see any reason why he can't give you freedom to choose something and yet still know what it is that you will eventually choose.

The "God is outside of time" mantra isn't quite the get-out-of-logical-jail-free card that so many internet apologists would like it to be. It remains that we are in time, so if we were to suppose that at our time T God knows inerrantly that at time T+1 I will choose A and not B, it must be impossible for me to choose B. If it were possible for me to choose B, it would follow that it must be possible for God's knowledge to be wrong, but that isn't possible.

If you think what you claim is possible, you are cordially invited to explain exactly how it would work that someone has legitimate opportunities to choose among options that are not part of what God already knows. Does God already know that I will choose A? Then how can you say that I was free to choose B? Is there any chance that I would choose B? Is there any chance God would have been wrong?

-Garth

 

[OdiN]

Originally posted by: Garth

Originally posted by: spunkz

Originally posted by: Garth

Originally posted by: OdiN

Okay...you are not understanding this here. Yes...God is all knowing. Yes... He knows what you are going to do and what you are thinking and all your choices. This is true. But the fact is...they are still yours. You do not know everything that will happen, therefore you do have a choice. God knows the choice and isn't changing that choice. That is how you get free will. Just because He knows a chioce you are going to make is bad doesn't mean He will change it for you.

I think it is you that is confused. No one is saying that God is changing anybody's thoughts or actions. What we're saying is that in order for God to know what the future will be, then the future must already be determined, and therefore it is quite unchangeable. If it were possible to choose an outcome that was different than that which was already known by God, it would be tantamount to the possibility that God's knowledge is wrong. That possibility is already precluded in the definition of God's omniscience, however. Therefore, it is inconsistent to suppose that a person has legitimately free choices while the future is already known inerrantly by God.

if God exists outside of time, as would the God of the Bible, i don't see any reason why he can't give you freedom to choose something and yet still know what it is that you will eventually choose.

The "God is outside of time" mantra isn't quite the get-out-of-logical-jail-free card that so many internet apologists would like it to be. It remains that we are in time, so if we were to suppose that at our time T God knows inerrantly that at time T+1 I will choose A and not B, it must be impossible for me to choose B. If it were possible for me to choose B, it would follow that it must be possible for God's knowledge to be wrong, but that isn't possible.

If you think what you claim is possible, you are cordially invited to explain exactly how it would work that someone has legitimate opportunities to choose among options that are not part of what God already knows. Does God already know that I will choose A? Then how can you say that I was free to choose B? Is there any chance that I would choose B? Is there any chance God would have been wrong?

-Garth

I don't know what is so hard about this.

You have choice A and B. You can choose A or B. Just because God knows what you will choose does not take away the fact that you are the one making the choice. He is not making you choose A or B. You are making that decision yourself.

 

My interpretation of the Bible/Torah doesn't say you will burn. You simply cease to exist as an entity. If however God chooses you may be given eternal life...................

Hell/ devil is a relatively new concept.

 

[bamacre]

Originally posted by: Hayabusa Rider
If there is one thing that brings out the stupidity of people is these religion threads.


Point is that no one objectively can state anything about God. You may believe something but you don't know crap.

True. None of us know anything in that regard. But what is useful in these threads is to open people to other and different ideas, other angles of thinking. And that is a good thing.

Whether you know it or not, someone here has something new on which to ponder. Limit the scope, limit the findings.

 

[Cerpin Taxt]

Originally posted by: OdiN

I don't know what is so hard about this.

The confoundment is mutual.

You have choice A and B.

Do I? How is it that I can choose B if it is known that I must select A? If I cannot choose B, but must only select A, how is that appropriately described as a choice? I've already asked questions to this effect, and until you have answers for them, you're not really doing anything but re-asserting the same silliness.

You can choose A or B. Just because God knows what you will choose does not take away the fact that you are the one making the choice. He is not making you choose A or B. You are making that decision yourself.

I already answered this nonsense. You are invited to go back and address those arguments if you think they are unsound. If all you can do is ignore the arguments that refute you only to perpetually re-assert your demonstrably unsound position, then I feel confident that the more rational position is already plainly evident.

-Garth

 

[Compton]

Originally posted by: deftron
If you don't follow his orders, you will burn for eternity...

What's up with that?


Does the Bible, Torah, Kuran, etc. explain why he's so mean?

He is a Goa'uld.

 

[bamacre]

Originally posted by: Garth

Originally posted by: OdiN

I don't know what is so hard about this.

The confoundment is mutual.

You have choice A and B.

Do I? How is it that I can choose B if it is known that I must select A? If I cannot choose B, but must only select A, how is that appropriately described as a choice? I've already asked questions to this effect, and until you have answers for them, you're not really doing anything but re-asserting the same silliness.

You can choose A or B. Just because God knows what you will choose does not take away the fact that you are the one making the choice. He is not making you choose A or B. You are making that decision yourself.

I already answered this nonsense. You are invited to go back and address those arguments if you think they are unsound. If all you can do is ignore the arguments that refute you only to perpetually re-assert your demonstrably unsound position, then I feel confident that the more rational position is already plainly evident.

-Garth

What he's trying to say is that you have a choice, God just knows what you are going to choose.

I don't know if I believe this is true though.

Why can it not be possible for God to not know what you are going to choose?

Does God cease to be omnipotent because he does not know what you are going to choose? Maybe God is so omnipotent that he chooses not to be omnipotent.

I know priests (and several AT members) who have a penis, yet they do not use it.