If there is a such thing as an Abrahamic God, why is he such a tyrant?

[bamacre]

Originally posted by: jerryjg
By the way, why are all the chrisitians so obsessed with living forever? for me this life is more than enough.

Different meaning of the word, "life."

Original Christians believed in reincarnation. It was removed from the Bible, supposedly, by the church. It may have been believed that being saved meant that you would not be physically reincarnated, but removed from life in this world, and placed in Heaven eternally. Others who could not be saved were in fact reincarnated and began a new human life in the world as we know it, with another chance of being saved (that is until the world ends, and you can imagine what would happen after that). So your remark, "for me this life is more than enough," has some validity here. Supposedly, the church took this idea out, thinking people would just assume they could screw up in this life, and then lead a good life on the next go-round.

 

[OdiN]

Jeff7 said: "He's knowingly creating a defective person, and then punishing that person for being defective."


Okay...this isn't true. What He is doing is creating a person, and letting them decide what they want to do or not do with their life. Then said person is judged based on the decisions that the PERSON, not God, made.

 

[miniMUNCH]

Originally posted by: deftron

Originally posted by: bamacre

Originally posted by: deftron
If you don't follow his orders, you will burn for eternity...

What's up with that?


Does the Bible explian why he's so mean?

Actually, God does not send souls to Hell. He has the ability to save them from going to Hell.

And he selectively chooses whether or not to.

Uh...no.

A more accurate picture is "God is love and His love is a consuming fire (that's is more or less in the Bible BTW)...those who have lived their lives in love (mind you this carries a lot of implications) will experience God's love with joy. Those who have lived selfish, dissolute lives will experience God's as a fire and will be in anguish.

 

[deftron]

No one has ansewred the question ...

Do the (religious books) you base your belief in God on
explian why he is so vengeful?

If not, why do you accept it?

 

[bamacre]

Originally posted by: Jeff7
I don't see a need to pray. If you fornicate with a neighbor, God's in there with you already. No need to tell him about it later. He already knows what you'd say anyway if you were to pray. So there's no need telling God what he already knows all too well.

There is a difference between prayer and confession.

Praying to God benefits you, and since it benefits you, it benefits God.

 

[Jeff7]

Originally posted by: OdiN
Not true. If he were controlling us, we would have no choice. He decided to give us freedom of choice - whether it benefits us or not. He does not simply "make" us do whatever he wants. Sure...he knows what will happen and he CAN change it, but that would be taking away our freedom of choice, something that is a gift.

You're trying to understand something that isn't understandable. This is almost like asking the question "Can God create a rock so heavy that he can't move it?"

As miniMUNCH said, you cannot apply human logic to God...it's just too far beyond human understanding for that to work. Even though we as humans think that we can eventually understand and unlock the secrets of everything.

You thusly show that God is not omniscient. Either God knows everything or he doesn't. Omniscience means infinite knowledge, across all dimensions of space and time. You can give someone freedom of thought, but if you know everything, you know what that person's "free" thoughts are going to be until death.

I do not believe humans per se will understand everything. Perhaps our distant ancestors will come closer, but our brains in current capacity are too small.

Human logic you say. There is logic. Humans can twist it, but there is logic despite that. A simple logical argument really can't be refuted. There is the omniscience argument. The Bible sets forth the terms of the argument, that God is all knowing and all powerful. He therefore knows everything and can do anything. Infinite power and knowledge. That's where it falls flat - infinity can be a dangerous thing in the wrong hands.

You mention the rock that God can not lift. There isn't anything wrong with that question. God creating a rock he can not lift - that is made both possible and impossible by the same premise: God is all powerful. He can create a rock, but he should be able to lift it as well, being all powerful. It's a self-conflicting statement, and the only argument made against it basically amounts to "Error, does not compute."

 

[Caveman]

You are right about a God that burns people for eternity being tyrannical...

But you are wrong about the bible saying anything about humans burning for eternity... This is a common misconception that's founded in Pagan doctrines interjected into the NT church during the apostasy that was nearly complete as early as 300 AD.

Rest assured, the God of the bible does not want to burn people for eternity. Understanding the translated meaning of the word "Hell" in greek will go a long way in helping you through this misunderstanding...

 

[bamacre]

Originally posted by: deftron

Originally posted by: bamacre

Originally posted by: deftron
If you don't follow his orders, you will burn for eternity...

What's up with that?


Does the Bible explian why he's so mean?

Actually, God does not send souls to Hell. He has the ability to save them from going to Hell.

And he selectively chooses whether or not to.

I do not know this to be true. Do you?

 

[deftron]

Originally posted by: bamacre

Originally posted by: deftron

Originally posted by: bamacre

Originally posted by: deftron
If you don't follow his orders, you will burn for eternity...

What's up with that?


Does the Bible explian why he's so mean?

Actually, God does not send souls to Hell. He has the ability to save them from going to Hell.

And he selectively chooses whether or not to.

I do not know this to be true. Do you?

How do you "know" what you said to be true then?

 

[OdiN]

Originally posted by: deftron
No one has ansewred the question ...

Do the (religious books) you base your belief in God on
explian why he is so vengeful?

If not, why do you accept it?

Explain yourself. Why do you believe He is so vengeful...and what do you think He is doing that is so vengeful? Are you simply referring to Hell or something else?

I tried to explain it with my analogy. I'm sure you've heard the saying spare the rod spoil the child. I totally believe in that. It's kinda the same thing. Though God loves us, He will punish people for wrongdoing. A serial killer and rapist to me definitely deserves worse than Hell.

Maybe you are referring to the destruction at a place referred to in the Bible. Soddam and Gamorah for example. If you do not know the story, the people in these towns were wicked and evil. Because of this, God destroyed the towns completely. However...He had compassion on those who were good and believed in them, sent them a warning and allowed them to leave the towns so that they would not be killed. Vengance...but Love at the same time.

 

[bamacre]

Originally posted by: Garth
The question really is, if God did not want us to commit certain actions, why did He even create us so that we're capable of doing them? Free will certainly doesn't excuse it, because not only is it inconsistent with His foreknowledge, but one does not need to be able to do ANYTHING in order to have free will. One must only have the freedom to choose among a certain set of possible actions, none of which need to include acts of sin.

-Garth

Free will is a Gift.

Think about it mathematically.

1 represents Good

0 represents nonexistence and thus unimportance

-1 represents Bad


Without free will, man is stuck eternally at zero. He has not the option of being good, nor the option of being bad. He has not the option of moving torward 1, and neither -1. Man is neither good nor bad, man is not even dead, because man was never with life.

Free will gives man the power to achieve 1, unfortunately it also allows man to achieve -1.
However, without the ability to achieve -1, there is no ability of achieving 1.

 

[deftron]

Originally posted by: OdiN

Originally posted by: deftron
No one has ansewred the question ...

Do the (religious books) you base your belief in God on
explian why he is so vengeful?

If not, why do you accept it?

Explain yourself. Why do you believe He is so vengeful...and what do you think He is doing that is so vengeful? Are you simply referring to Hell or something else?

I tried to explain it with my analogy. I'm sure you've heard the saying spare the rod spoil the child. I totally believe in that. It's kinda the same thing. Though God loves us, He will punish people for wrongdoing. A serial killer and rapist to me definitely deserves worse than Hell.

Maybe you are referring to the destruction at a place referred to in the Bible. Soddam and Gamorah for example. If you do not know the story, the people in these towns were wicked and evil. Because of this, God destroyed the towns completely. However...He had compassion on those who were good and believed in them, sent them a warning and allowed them to leave the towns so that they would not be killed. Vengance...but Love at the same time.

YOu still didn't answer "why"


Why did he destroy Soddam ... just because they had butt sex ..?
So they burn in hell forever...

Why does God deem these things evil

And why is he unmerciful in punishment (eternity)

And why does he allow us to do these "evil things" if they are truly evil

 

[bamacre]

Originally posted by: Jeff7

Originally posted by: bamacre

Originally posted by: deftron
If you don't follow his orders, you will burn for eternity...

What's up with that?


Does the Bible explian why he's so mean?

Actually, God does not send souls to Hell. He has the ability to save them from going to Hell.

God is aware of how each human will turn out before they are born - omniscient.. God has the power to change the future - omnipotence. If God knows what is going to happen, and easily has the power to change it, is that not the same as sending someone to Hell? He's knowingly creating a defective person, and then punishing that person for being defective.

Again, I do not know this to be true. Your definition of omnipotence is probably different than God's.

According to your definition, God may not be omnipotent. In fact, God may not wish to be omnipotent.

 

[EyeMNathan]

Their God is vengeful because if there was no fear of consequences, no one would follow the rules of the religion.

 

[OdiN]

Originally posted by: Jeff7

Originally posted by: OdiN
Not true. If he were controlling us, we would have no choice. He decided to give us freedom of choice - whether it benefits us or not. He does not simply "make" us do whatever he wants. Sure...he knows what will happen and he CAN change it, but that would be taking away our freedom of choice, something that is a gift.

You're trying to understand something that isn't understandable. This is almost like asking the question "Can God create a rock so heavy that he can't move it?"

As miniMUNCH said, you cannot apply human logic to God...it's just too far beyond human understanding for that to work. Even though we as humans think that we can eventually understand and unlock the secrets of everything.

You thusly show that God is not omniscient. Either God knows everything or he doesn't. Omniscience means infinite knowledge, across all dimensions of space and time. You can give someone freedom of thought, but if you know everything, you know what that person's "free" thoughts are going to be until death.

I do not believe humans per se will understand everything. Perhaps our distant ancestors will come closer, but our brains in current capacity are too small.

Human logic you say. There is logic. Humans can twist it, but there is logic despite that. A simple logical argument really can't be refuted. There is the omniscience argument. The Bible sets forth the terms of the argument, that God is all knowing and all powerful. He therefore knows everything and can do anything. Infinite power and knowledge. That's where it falls flat - infinity can be a dangerous thing in the wrong hands.

You mention the rock that God can not lift. There isn't anything wrong with that question. God creating a rock he can not lift - that is made both possible and impossible by the same premise: God is all powerful. He can create a rock, but he should be able to lift it as well, being all powerful. It's a self-conflicting statement, and the only argument made against it basically amounts to "Error, does not compute."

Okay...you are not understanding this here. Yes...God is all knowing. Yes... He knows what you are going to do and what you are thinking and all your choices. This is true. But the fact is...they are still yours. You do not know everything that will happen, therefore you do have a choice. God knows the choice and isn't changing that choice. That is how you get free will. Just because He knows a chioce you are going to make is bad doesn't mean He will change it for you.

So yes He is giving freedom of thought, and though He knows what your thoughts are, He is not making you think them. Knowing that you are thinking something and making you think something are two completely different things. Yes He has infinite power and knowledge...this doesn't automatically dictate what His decisions will be or should be. That's where your argument falls flat there.


And yeah...the whole error does not compute thing....it's kinda like asking a computer to give you the last digit of Pi.

 

[mwtgg]

Originally posted by: OdiN
Jeff7 said: "He's knowingly creating a defective person, and then punishing that person for being defective."


Okay...this isn't true. What He is doing is creating a person, and letting them decide what they want to do or not do with their life. Then said person is judged based on the decisions that the PERSON, not God, made.

What about people who are mentally retarded or crippled in some way? They chose that?

 

[deftron]

Originally posted by: mwtgg

Originally posted by: OdiN
Jeff7 said: "He's knowingly creating a defective person, and then punishing that person for being defective."


Okay...this isn't true. What He is doing is creating a person, and letting them decide what they want to do or not do with their life. Then said person is judged based on the decisions that the PERSON, not God, made.

What about people who are mentally retarded or crippled in some way? They chose that?

No, God fvcked them over..

 

[bamacre]

oops, dp. Devil made me do it

 

[deftron]

Originally posted by: bamacre
oops, dvda. Devil made me do it

fixed

 

[OdiN]

Originally posted by: deftron

Originally posted by: OdiN

Originally posted by: deftron
No one has ansewred the question ...

Do the (religious books) you base your belief in God on
explian why he is so vengeful?

If not, why do you accept it?

Explain yourself. Why do you believe He is so vengeful...and what do you think He is doing that is so vengeful? Are you simply referring to Hell or something else?

I tried to explain it with my analogy. I'm sure you've heard the saying spare the rod spoil the child. I totally believe in that. It's kinda the same thing. Though God loves us, He will punish people for wrongdoing. A serial killer and rapist to me definitely deserves worse than Hell.

Maybe you are referring to the destruction at a place referred to in the Bible. Soddam and Gamorah for example. If you do not know the story, the people in these towns were wicked and evil. Because of this, God destroyed the towns completely. However...He had compassion on those who were good and believed in them, sent them a warning and allowed them to leave the towns so that they would not be killed. Vengance...but Love at the same time.

YOu still didn't answer "why"


Why did he destroy Soddam ... just because they had butt sex ..?
So they burn in hell forever...

Why does God deem these things evil

And why is he unmerciful in punishment (eternity)

And why does he allow us to do these "evil things" if they are truly evil

Why is it allowed? Again free will. God is not making us do anything. Imagine living a life you were not in control of. You would go around and do whatever it is you do....it would be like being trapped inside a robot your whole life - staring out and having no control at all. Is that even really living? I think not.

Yes...homosexuallity is seen as a sin. It's not what we were meant to do. This wasn't the only thing going on in Soddam - murder, etc. too.

God has mercy. His only Son came and died for everyone so that we can be forgiven for any wrongdoings. How is that not mercy?

And I did answer. Do not ask me why - ask God. God is the only one that knows all the correct answers. I surely am no expert on why He does what He does. Sometimes you just must believe in something and belive that it just happened...even if you don't know specifically why it happened.

 

[bamacre]

Originally posted by: mwtgg

Originally posted by: OdiN
Jeff7 said: "He's knowingly creating a defective person, and then punishing that person for being defective."


Okay...this isn't true. What He is doing is creating a person, and letting them decide what they want to do or not do with their life. Then said person is judged based on the decisions that the PERSON, not God, made.

What about people who are mentally retarded or crippled in some way? They chose that?

I believe that this is not a defect, not at all. It is a gift. However, my explanation of this is probably very hard to understand, and to explain.

 

[bamacre]

Originally posted by: deftron

Originally posted by: bamacre
oops, dvda. Devil made me do it

fixed

What is dvda?

 

[OdiN]

Originally posted by: deftron

Originally posted by: mwtgg

Originally posted by: OdiN
Jeff7 said: "He's knowingly creating a defective person, and then punishing that person for being defective."


Okay...this isn't true. What He is doing is creating a person, and letting them decide what they want to do or not do with their life. Then said person is judged based on the decisions that the PERSON, not God, made.

What about people who are mentally retarded or crippled in some way? They chose that?

No, God fvcked them over..

Mentally retarded or crippled people did not choose this no - and it is unfortunate. Why does this exist and why does God allow this to happen? I don't know. This is the same thing as asking why God allows someone to kill someone else...or why He allows someone like Hitler to do such horrible things. But....God never said that life is fair or that life is perfect. Bascially...sh!t happens.

I believe that anyone mentally retarded or truly insane, etc. will not be sent to Hell. It's kind of like when a baby or small child dies - they will be in Heaven. I believe that if someone truly does not have the capacity to understand right and wrong or understand what the Bible teaches...that that person will not be judged and sent to Hell.

 

[Jeff7]

So yes He is giving freedom of thought, and though He knows what your thoughts are, He is not making you think them. Knowing that you are thinking something and making you think something are two completely different things. Yes He has infinite power and knowledge...this doesn't automatically dictate what His decisions will be or should be. That's where your argument falls flat there.

This is about where it starts going in circles.


God lays out the plans for Jeff7. He sees in the future, "Huh, he'll decide that I don't exist. Obvious design flaw I suppose. But hey, I'll go ahead and send the plans to Earth, let Jeff be born imperfectly, and punish him for the decisions that I already know he's going to make on his own. I should feel guilty about that, but I don't. Of course, I make up the rules of ethics in the Universe, so hah! to me."
In that sense, I think it's more like God's sick sense of humor as he plays with his human bacteria colonies.

 

[OdiN]

Originally posted by: mwtgg

Originally posted by: OdiN
Jeff7 said: "He's knowingly creating a defective person, and then punishing that person for being defective."


Okay...this isn't true. What He is doing is creating a person, and letting them decide what they want to do or not do with their life. Then said person is judged based on the decisions that the PERSON, not God, made.

What about people who are mentally retarded or crippled in some way? They chose that?

The retarted or crippled have no more choice about their condition than you had about the natural color of your hair or your facial appearance or any other aspect of your physical self. Some "mentally retarted" people are actually extremely intelligent in some ways.

I did not say that we had a choice about that. I said that we have a choice about our actions here.