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I'd like to give up but...

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Born2bwire said:
Is what everybody is thinking. Just because you read a wikipedia article on some fancy ten dollar word doesn't mean you know shit about it.
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I came up with the damn idea before I read some Wiki on it.

I've had this view on life for quite a while... It wasn't until someone told me that there was a name for it that I realized my view was already some colloquial term. :hmm:
 
TridenT said:
I came up with the damn idea before I read some Wiki on it.

I've had this view on life for quite a while... It wasn't until someone told me that there was a name for it that I realized my view was already some colloquial term. :hmm:
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So you're saying you came up with nihilism, or you came up with materialistic determinism? Or both? You're also saying that you, as a condition of existence, lack free will? Also, do you know what the word colloquial means? 😛
 
TheVrolok said:
So you're saying you came up with nihilism, or you came up with materialistic determinism? Or both? You're also saying that you, as a condition of existence, lack free will? Also, do you know what the word colloquial means? 😛
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All of the above. It was only until I started talking about this shit that people told me the names of the views I had.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/colloquial I might have used it a bit off, but I couldn't think of another word to describe it being a term that could be used in casual conversation.
 
Dude you seriously need to see a shrink. You truly are delusional and really do have low self confidence. People are trying to help you but it's impossible when you don't think you have a problem. Just like addicts, the first step into bettering yourself is admitting you have a problem and you won't. You seriously need to see a shrink. The reason why you won't get laid isn't cus you're ugly, it's cus you're an asshole.
 
TridenT said:
All of the above. It was only until I started talking about this shit that people told me the names of the views I had.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/colloquial I might have used it a bit off, but I couldn't think of another word to describe it being a term that could be used in casual conversation.
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I'm actually still waiting for an explanation on how you're nihilistic, since we've essentially already determined you're not .. and I suppose that's why you've since swapped to "materialistic determinism?" So now you're saying that you lack free will and that all cultural/social constructs are brought about by economic/materialistic conditions? Or did you mean to say you're a deterministic nihilist? Because that would make slightly more sense, but, of course, you'd still be full of shit.
 
TheVrolok said:
I'm actually still waiting for an explanation on how you're nihilistic, since we've essentially already determined you're not .. and I suppose that's why you've since swapped to "materialistic determinism?" So now you're saying that you lack free will and that all cultural/social constructs are brought about by economic/materialistic conditions? Or did you mean to say you're a deterministic nihilist? Because that would make slightly more sense, but, of course, you'd still be full of shit.
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I don't think they're mutually exclusive ideas, but some people do. I can understand why they might think that, but to me they don't see them that far apart.

Anyway, nihilist and materialistic determinist, yes.

I lack free will, yes. Free will is only something a god could have. If everything is natural, then how can you disobey the laws of the universe? (Is your brain magically the one thing in the universe, along with 6+ billion other brains, that can somehow disobey these laws?) I don't believe in a god, thus there is no purpose thus... nihilism. I don't believe in anything supernatural.
 
TridenT said:
I don't think they're mutually exclusive ideas, but some people do. I can understand why they might think that, but to me they don't see them that far apart.

Anyway, nihilist and materialistic determinist, yes.

I lack free will, yes. Free will is only something a god could have. If everything is natural, then how can you disobey the laws of the universe? (Is your brain magically the one thing in the universe, along with 6+ billion other brains, that can somehow disobey these laws?) I don't believe in a god, thus there is no purpose thus... nihilism. I don't believe in anything supernatural.
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So you believe in complete predestination? Not by the will of a god, obviously, but by the laws and subsequent actions of the universe. Also, please do explain how free will is a violates the law of the universe. Or are you just using the old, old, old, old example of all actions requiring a force to propagate them and there being no recognizable force to stimulate the beginning of a thought therefore whatever stimuli existed, had always been planned to occur in such a way? Because that's a pretty weak interpretation of the laws of physics, and doesn't take quantum mechanics into account. Or do you only have a philosophy 101 rhetorical argument here?
 
trying to install a photo but i dont know how?
 
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TheVrolok said:
So you believe in complete predestination? Not by the will of a god, obviously, but by the laws and subsequent actions of the universe. Also, please do explain how free will is a violates the law of the universe. Or are you just using the old, old, old, old example of all actions requiring a force to propagate them and there being no recognizable force to stimulate the beginning of a thought therefore whatever stimuli existed, had always been planned to occur in such a way? Because that's a pretty weak interpretation of the laws of physics, and doesn't take quantum mechanics into account. Or do you only have a philosophy 101 rhetorical argument here?
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Yes.

Freewill is an idea that if one so chooses they can completely override all forces of nature and make a decision completely outside the laws of the universe within their damn brain. A good example is someone with a mental illness or some kind of impossible decision being overcome by "freewill." The brain is deterministic, quantum mechanics doesn't scale up THAT nicely for decision making even with its apparent randomness.

Anyway, even if the universe was entirely random or just partially random it still wouldn't have a purpose. A transcendental purpose requires a god, and I don't think there is one. There is no evidence that points very well towards the argument for one, and the idea of a god is very weird. How would a god think since it's outside the laws of nature? It could wish itself out of existence. Lots of stupid questions like that are the reason why it seems so implausible.

Edit: I'm not a philosopher. I don't really play in the realm of philosophy that often nor do I ever read up on it... so I don't know much about philosophical ideas or whatever.
 
TridenT said:
Yes.

Freewill is an idea that if one so chooses they can completely override all forces of nature and make a decision completely outside the laws of the universe within their damn brain. A good example is someone with a mental illness or some kind of impossible decision being overcome by "freewill." The brain is deterministic, quantum mechanics doesn't scale up THAT nicely for decision making even with its apparent randomness.

Anyway, even if the universe was entirely random or just partially random it still wouldn't have a purpose. A transcendental purpose requires a god, and I don't think there is one. There is no evidence that points very well towards the argument for one, and the idea of a god is very weird. How would a god think since it's outside the laws of nature? It could wish itself out of existence. Lots of stupid questions like that are the reason why it seems so implausible.
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The problem with your explanation is that it requires an understanding of quantum mechanics, and the brain that neither you, nor anyone else (yet, unfortunately) possesses. Take things as "simple" as the double slit experiment and the results are still baffling. Quantum physics itself is indeterministic; so you also argue that quantum physics violates the law of the universe? The absolute best you can do is argue your "interpretation" and to be honest, neither you, nor I have enough knowledge to truly argue the points to any fruitful extent. So really, arguing that free will is non-existent is still just speculation and in many ways, a cop out for responsibility.
 
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TheVrolok said:
The problem with your explanation is that it requires an understanding of quantum mechanics, and the brain that neither you, nor anyone else (yet, unfortunately) possesses. Take things as "simple" as the double slit experiment and the results are still baffling. So really, arguing that free will is non-existent is still just speculation and in many ways, a cop out for responsibility.
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The current understanding of quantum mechanics says that decision making in the human brain is not that well affected by the lack of understanding of quantum mechanics. OR at least it was that way 5 years ago: link I heard that a few years ago but already had made my decision before that.

Uh, freewill still requires a breaking in the laws of the universe. How does adding a random factor make you have freewill? It doesn't... It just means some shit isn't going to add up correctly sometimes, like a memtest failure in a computer... That's not freewill, that's not coming to something you WANT to happen.

If I want my fucking arm to turn into a machine gun and back at my freewill, it ain't gonna happen. If I could, that would be freewill. Similar obstacles are inside the brain as well. Being in constant euphoria for instance is practically impossible even if you want it to happen. A billion more examples there are here...
 
TridenT said:
The current understanding of quantum mechanics says that decision making in the human brain is not that well affected by the lack of understanding of quantum mechanics. OR at least it was that way 5 years ago: link I heard that a few years ago but already had made my decision before that.

Uh, freewill still requires a breaking in the laws of the universe. How does adding a random factor make you have freewill? It doesn't... It just means some shit isn't going to add up correctly sometimes, like a memtest failure in a computer... That's not freewill, that's not coming to something you WANT to happen.

If I want my fucking arm to turn into a machine gun and back at my freewill, it ain't gonna happen. If I could, that would be freewill. Similar obstacles are inside the brain as well. Being in constant euphoria for instance is practically impossible even if you want it to happen. A billion more examples there are here...
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You realize you're quoting from The Skeptic's Guide? Hardly a non-biased source. Given that the nature of quantum mechanics isn't fully (hell, it's barely) understood, anyone who states as fact the limits of its affect are at best speculating. You can google "quantum mechanics free will" and find many papers on both sides. Your argument about your arm turning into a machine gun is inane. If free will does exist, it obviously operates within the laws of the universe (just as if it doesn't, it obviously operates within the laws of the universe) and as such the extension of free will (movement of your arm) is also governed by the laws of the universe. At this point in time, our understanding of those laws is that you cannot will your arm into transmutation.
 
TheVrolok said:
You realize you're quoting from The Skeptic's Guide? Hardly a non-biased source. Given that the nature of quantum mechanics isn't fully (hell, it's barely) understood, anyone who states as fact the limits of its affect are at best speculating. You can google "quantum mechanics free will" and find many papers on both sides. Your argument about your arm turning into a machine gun is inane. If free will does exist, it obviously operates within the laws of the universe (just as if it doesn't, it obviously operates within the laws of the universe) and as such the extension of free will (movement of your arm) is also governed by the laws of the universe. At this point in time, our understanding of those laws is that you cannot will your arm into transmutation.
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I really think you're arguing with a middle aged alcoholic lawyer who gets off on this shit.
 
TridenT said:
my brain won't let me.

It's part of that whole evolution thing.

Can't commit suicide, brain won't let me. Can't stop trying for ladies, brain won't let me.

Can't do this, can't do that. All because my brain is fixated on its evolutionary goals which are completely irrelevant to my interests that I have developed over time like my genetics did over millions of years.

Big broken machine I am.

Fucking hate it. It's horrible. Body is ultra fail.
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Are you broken or is it the world that is broken. I to long for rest, How much has been put on your plate as compared tp mine, Hang in there fella your suffering is small compared to what is coming to this world. Don't blame God or reject him because your heart is heavey. Instead raise up your head in the knowledge that you shall be free soon enough.
 
TheVrolok said:
You realize you're quoting from The Skeptic's Guide? Hardly a non-biased source. Given that the nature of quantum mechanics isn't fully (hell, it's barely) understood, anyone who states as fact the limits of its affect are at best speculating. You can google "quantum mechanics free will" and find many papers on both sides. Your argument about your arm turning into a machine gun is inane. If free will does exist, it obviously operates within the laws of the universe (just as if it doesn't, it obviously operates within the laws of the universe) and as such the extension of free will (movement of your arm) is also governed by the laws of the universe. At this point in time, our understanding of those laws is that you cannot will your arm into transmutation.
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Yes, and I know I am quoting a somewhat biased source. 😛 If we don't understand quantum mechanics then what is stopping me from saying that it could all be predetermined but it just seems random or chaotic because we don't have a complete understanding of it? (i.e. a random number generator seems random to a human unless we view the source code)

If you cannot will your arm into transmutation then how can you will your brain into perfect euphoria consistently? How can you will over the laws of what your brain is set out to already have done? That is the essence of freewill, overcoming laws of nature.

We have nothing but an illusion of freewill.
 
TridenT said:
Yes, and I know I am quoting a somewhat biased source. 😛 If we don't understand quantum mechanics then what is stopping me from saying that it could all be predetermined but it just seems random or chaotic because we don't have a complete understanding of it? (i.e. a random number generator seems random to a human unless we view the source code)
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Nothing is stopping you from saying it. That's exactly my point, and as I've already said, due to our lack of understanding the best you (or anyone) can do is speculate. You cannot state that free will violates the laws of physics because those laws are not entirely known; in the same way that I cannot state, without a doubt, that free will does exist. All I'm saying is that we may be equally right, and equally wrong; so you cannot possibly state your ideas as fact - because hey are not.

TridenT said:
If you cannot will your arm into transmutation then how can you will your brain into perfect euphoria consistently? How can you will over the laws of what your brain is set out to already have done? That is the essence of freewill, overcoming laws of nature.
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Who said anything about willing ones brain into perfect euphoria constantly? I don't think you can do that, I don't think that anyone is arguing that you could. If you could, that'd be a real ball buster for all the companies doing R&D on the next new antidepressants, eh? Again, we've already covered that there may very well be no laws that "the brain is set out to already have done" so stop using that argument.

I'm done having this circular argument, all your arguments consist of "Hey, look what I got on this website that backs up what I say, and I'll keep saying it because it makes my point stronger."
 
zerocool84 said:
Dude you seriously need to see a shrink. You truly are delusional and really do have low self confidence. People are trying to help you but it's impossible when you don't think you have a problem. Just like addicts, the first step into bettering yourself is admitting you have a problem and you won't. You seriously need to see a shrink. The reason why you won't get laid isn't cus you're ugly, it's cus you're an asshole.
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This.

Also- if you do end up going to UW- live in the dorms for a year- you will get laid.....or there is no hope for you...but I really do think you'd get laid. Just relax, drop your no alcohol thing and have fun...if you've been dancing already then you've already got that going for you...you just need some drunk chick to fuck you and snap you out of what ever funk you're in.
 
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