I just found the weirdest letter I've ever gotten.

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91TTZ

Lifer
Jan 31, 2005
14,374
1
0
Originally posted by: MrChad
You don't seem to be replying to ANY counterarguments, let alone Amused's.

It's because I can identify a dead end when I see one.

The first few times I encounter an argument I'll spend the time to go out of the way and address it. But often the course of the argument begins to follow a worn and beaten path, where no compromise can be reached.

It's when raw emotion gets involved that the argument really goes downhill. Once one party gets emotionally charged, reason no longer applies.

Have you ever talked to a religious person about religion? There is no reasoning involved. People are too emotional about it, and they'll never see each other's view. Once you see the argument falling into the gutter and following the gutter's path, the constructive phase of that argument is over. You might as well get a bunch of Christians, Jews, and Muslims in one room and tell them to talk about religion.
 

shilala

Lifer
Oct 5, 2004
11,437
1
76
Originally posted by: PingSpike
Originally posted by: 91TTZ
Originally posted by: PingSpike

You are not required to have sex with a gay man in order to not be bothered by his existence. The same goes for transexuals, fat women, goats, etc.

Hypocrisy Connection Fail: Apples and Oranges Logic Error.

You sound so young. How old are you? It seems that every high school or college aged kid on here spews out what they learned in yesterday's class, yet they have no idea what they're talking about.

And what you might find interesting is that gay people don't bother me. But people who get surgery on themselves to change their sex is a freak in my book. It is not natural. Homosexuality happens to people in nature. It is a natural occurrance. But nobody has ever changed sex mid-life in nature. It's just not meant to be.

Were unable to defeat Amused in a battle of wits so you'd thought you take on the guy who makes poop jokes instead?

I couldn't fricking understand transexuals either until about last year. I couldn't understand why some one would put themselves through such horrible surgery and turmoil...wouldn't it be easier to just work with what you had?

Then I watched a couple interested shows about them that sort of changed my view. Dissections of their brains revealed they had more in common with the opposite sex. All it takes is a burst of hormones at the wrong time. There are women who are genetically men you know?

Sorry, but I'm not some victim of a vaste conspiracy to...stop people from hating eachother (?) or something?

When the sum of the parts adds up to something different than what I expect it to be, I eat my crow and change my mind. A wise man knows that he does not know everything and looks at both sides, before allowing logic to prevail.

If you had a point, it would be easy to make and you would have done so...instead you appear to be reduced to parroting, character assassination and victim mentality.

10/10.
I think this may well be the first insightful adult counter-argument I've ever seen put together at this board.
You have my admiration PingSpike.
 

MrChad

Lifer
Aug 22, 2001
13,507
3
81
Originally posted by: shilala
Originally posted by: MrChad
Human sexual identity is much more complex than anything we've observed in other species (to my knowledge). We are talking about people whose internal sexual identity (caused by genetics, hormones, etc.) does not match their external sexual identity. This IS a natural occurrence, just like homosexuality. Modern medical science allows these people to "correct" their external identities, not unlike some other cosmetic surgeries.

I can buy that argument to an extent.
There still stands the "bicurious" phenomena. The "I think I'll give this two way street thing a try". In many cases, homosexuality is a conscious decision rather than a natural born instinct. Either that, or there are certain "levels" that exist naturally between homosexual and heterosexual.
People are who they are. To me, deciding whether I'm going to like or dislike a person based on their sexual preference is just plain short sighted.
If my best bud wakes up tomorrow and says "Ya know, I think I'm gonna suck a dick today", it no more changes the validity of our friendship than if he says "Ya know, I think I'm gonna buy a Toyota today".
As a matter of fact, I'd be more upset about the Toyota.
In the end, It's none of my business whether he sucks that dick or buys that Toyota. It's his life and he's got the right to live it however he sees fit, whether I like it or not.

Sexual preference is a different topic from sexual identity. A gay man may still feel like a man, but nonetheless feels attracted to other men and not women. These feelings cannot really be observed until the teenage years because that's when sexual development occurs.

In the case of "defective" sexual identity, a man (or boy; these things can be observed at young ages) actually feels like a female inside and feels more comfortable with female activities than with male activities. Sometimes these feelings are mild; girls can behave like "tomboys" and still be readily accepted under social norms. Sometimes they are so strong that people need to undergo sex changes in order to feel "normal", otherwise they feel "trapped" in a foreign body.

Again, you should really watch Ma Vie En Rose. It deals with this subject quite well.
 

91TTZ

Lifer
Jan 31, 2005
14,374
1
0
I'm going to be serious for a moment, so I'll old off on the humorous cheap shots.

Amused, do you have any personal attachment to this subject?

And I have an honest question for you:

If you began seeing a beautiful woman and you got along great, what would you do if she told you that she used to be a man? Would you honestly have no problems with it and continue an otherwise great relationship, or would you be disgusted and instantly break it off? I just want to know your stance on this. Do you find it so acceptable that you'd have no problem dating a transsexual, or do you still hold some reservations about the whole idea and consider it a showstopper?
 

MrChad

Lifer
Aug 22, 2001
13,507
3
81
Originally posted by: 91TTZ
I'm going to be serious for a moment, so I'll old off on the humorous cheap shots.

Amused, do you have any personal attachment to this subject?

And I have an honest question for you:

If you began seeing a beautiful woman and you got along great, what would you do if she told you that she used to be a man? Would you honestly have no problems with it and continue an otherwise great relationship, or would you be disgusted and instantly break it off? I just want to know your stance on this. Do you find it so acceptable that you'd have no problem dating a transsexual, or do you still hold some reservations about the whole idea and consider it a showstopper?

Why do you keep bringing up that criteria? I wouldn't date a mentally retarded woman, but that doesn't mean I view her as less of a human being.
 

91TTZ

Lifer
Jan 31, 2005
14,374
1
0
I'd like to pose the same question to everyone else reading this:

If you began seeing a beautiful woman and you got along great, what would you do if she told you that she used to be a man? Would you honestly have no problems with it and continue an otherwise great relationship, or would you be disgusted and instantly break it off? Are you so comfortable with their new sexual identity that you'd have no problem dating a transsexual, or do you still hold some reservations about the whole idea and consider it a showstopper?
 

Glpster

Banned
Jan 14, 2005
221
0
0
Originally posted by: 91TTZ
Originally posted by: Glpster

Ha!! None of those are strawman arguments. They are all examples of the very "unnatural" things that we primates, HomoSapien Sapiens, do everyday.

Wearing clothing is quite unnatural. Just look to your book of Genesis, if that's the route you prefer to take.

I think you're missing the level of extremity in this case. Moderation is key. I think you're blurring the issue too much. Wearing clothes is not extreme. Shooting yourself up with hormones to change your sex is quite extreme. I lift weights, but I wouldn't use steroids. I do want to get bigger but I have to draw the line somewhere. Changing my body's chemistry through artifical means just seems like it would be going way too far.

Also, I am not religious at all.


Unless you or I were in the position of a transexual, we are in no position to judge their decision to have gender reassignment surgery.

The enlightened individual can only presume to empathize with the anguish of living in the body of a gender that their mind tells them they do not belong.

Men's and women's brains are, in fact, not only chemically, but physically different than one another. I've not heard of any medications that make a transexual feel comfortable and at home in the physical body they have. So, it's much easier to change the body than it is the brain.

Just because such reassignments are new doesn't make them bad. Not long ago people with acid reflux simply had to live with the pain. Now we can medically, or surgically remedy it. It's not "natural", but noone is complaining.

I'm not going to lie and say that I'm not a bit "weirded" out by transsexuals, and I've never really (that I know of) been an associate of one. But, I've also been weirded out by people with handicaps or deformities, that once I got to know them, the difference didn't even register in my mind when interacting with them. So, I suspect the same would be true should I have any interactions with a transexual.

The best thing for someone like yourself, though, would be to have a child that is mentally a different gender than they are physically. Nine out of Ten such parents quickly learn to love and accept their child for who they are. The rest, tend to be married to some fundamentalist religious beliefs.

 

Amused

Elite Member
Apr 14, 2001
56,515
16,237
146
Originally posted by: 91TTZ
I'm going to be serious for a moment, so I'll old off on the humorous cheap shots.

Amused, do you have any personal attachment to this subject?

And I have an honest question for you:

If you began seeing a beautiful woman and you got along great, what would you do if she told you that she used to be a man? Would you honestly have no problems with it and continue an otherwise great relationship, or would you be disgusted and instantly break it off? I just want to know your stance on this. Do you find it so acceptable that you'd have no problem dating a transsexual, or do you still hold some reservations about the whole idea and consider it a showstopper?

Nope.

I would break it off simply because I would find it a sexual turn off. I would not be disgusted, nor would I think any less of the person.

While I am logically tolerant of sexual defects, I am not turned on sexually by them.

At any rate, I already explained that this is NOT duplicity.
 

nakedfrog

No Lifer
Apr 3, 2001
59,208
13,801
136
Originally posted by: 91TTZ
I'm going to be serious for a moment, so I'll old off on the humorous cheap shots.

Amused, do you have any personal attachment to this subject?

And I have an honest question for you:

If you began seeing a beautiful woman and you got along great, what would you do if she told you that she used to be a man? Would you honestly have no problems with it and continue an otherwise great relationship, or would you be disgusted and instantly break it off? I just want to know your stance on this. Do you find it so acceptable that you'd have no problem dating a transsexual, or do you still hold some reservations about the whole idea and consider it a showstopper?

Bumping pelvises with someone != Working with them
Oh, and in answer to your question, I would have no problem with it.
 

MrChad

Lifer
Aug 22, 2001
13,507
3
81
Originally posted by: Glpster
The best thing for someone like yourself, though, would be to have a child that is mentally a different gender than they are physically. Nine out of Ten such parents quickly learn to love and accept their child for who they are. The rest, tend to be married to some fundamentalist religious beliefs.

That's a big assumption there. I would imagine a lot of parents would feel uncomfortable if their son started wearing dresses and acting like a girl. Daughters acting like boys is much more socially acceptable, but it's unfair to say that the "handful" of parents who would not automatically accept their child's behavior do so because of their religious beliefs.
 

91TTZ

Lifer
Jan 31, 2005
14,374
1
0
Originally posted by: MrChad


Why do you keep bringing up that criteria? I wouldn't date a mentally retarded woman, but that doesn't mean I view her as less of a human being.

The reason I bring it up is because I want to know how people truly feel about it. They might say that they have no problem with it at all, or they might say that it gives the person a "contaminated" feel.

I'll give you another example. Some people are racist and wouldn't date a black woman. If they met a "white" woman who seemed great to them, they'd be perfectly happy. But what if she told him she was half black? To some racists, that would spoil the relationship because the very thought of her being black would discusts them. But I, on the other hand, wouldn't be bothered by that at all, because I truly don't mind. But if she told me that she used to be a man, that would discust me.
 

91TTZ

Lifer
Jan 31, 2005
14,374
1
0
Originally posted by: Glpster

The best thing for someone like yourself, though, would be to have a child that is mentally a different gender than they are physically. Nine out of Ten such parents quickly learn to love and accept their child for who they are. The rest, tend to be married to some fundamentalist religious beliefs.

I was agreeing with your post and thought it was pretty solid until this part. This part sounds uncalled for and out of place.
 

shilala

Lifer
Oct 5, 2004
11,437
1
76
Originally posted by: MrChad
Originally posted by: shilala
Originally posted by: MrChad
Human sexual identity is much more complex than anything we've observed in other species (to my knowledge). We are talking about people whose internal sexual identity (caused by genetics, hormones, etc.) does not match their external sexual identity. This IS a natural occurrence, just like homosexuality. Modern medical science allows these people to "correct" their external identities, not unlike some other cosmetic surgeries.

I can buy that argument to an extent.
There still stands the "bicurious" phenomena. The "I think I'll give this two way street thing a try". In many cases, homosexuality is a conscious decision rather than a natural born instinct. Either that, or there are certain "levels" that exist naturally between homosexual and heterosexual.
People are who they are. To me, deciding whether I'm going to like or dislike a person based on their sexual preference is just plain short sighted.
If my best bud wakes up tomorrow and says "Ya know, I think I'm gonna suck a dick today", it no more changes the validity of our friendship than if he says "Ya know, I think I'm gonna buy a Toyota today".
As a matter of fact, I'd be more upset about the Toyota.
In the end, It's none of my business whether he sucks that dick or buys that Toyota. It's his life and he's got the right to live it however he sees fit, whether I like it or not.

Sexual preference is a different topic from sexual identity. A gay man may still feel like a man, but nonetheless feels attracted to other men and not women. These feelings cannot really be observed until the teenage years because that's when sexual development occurs.

In the case of "defective" sexual identity, a man (or boy; these things can be observed at young ages) actually feels like a female inside and feels more comfortable with female activities than with male activities. Sometimes these feelings are mild; girls can behave like "tomboys" and still be readily accepted under social norms. Sometimes they are so strong that people need to undergo sex changes in order to feel "normal", otherwise they feel "trapped" in a foreign body.

Again, you should really watch Ma Vie En Rose. It deals with this subject quite well.

When you put it in that light, it sounds like a purely psychological issue rather than a physiological issue.
"I need a sex change because I feel like an outcast because I like doing girl things more than boy things" is a psychological condition, not a physiological condition.
I do believe (and it is scientifically proven) that some men are actually more woman on a biological base than they are man (and vice versa).
The act of having a sex change is purely psychologically motivated. Your statements above solidify that argument.
I don't know how sexual preference ties into this. It's interesting though.
Do men who feel like they are trapped in a woman's body generally develop a sexual attraction to other men?
That's where my understanding breaks down and what makes me think about transexuality different than homosexuality.
I feel that the conditions are both natural, but concurrently I feel that the acting out homosexual urges is biological while having a transgender operation is psychological.
 

FFactory0x

Diamond Member
Aug 8, 2001
6,991
0
0
Originally posted by: JimRaynor
Well, he had big man boobs which we all thought were because of smoking too much pot or something. Later we found out that he had been on hormones already for like two years.

Too much pot. hahahahah Yea like pot gives you big boobs you idiot
 

MrChad

Lifer
Aug 22, 2001
13,507
3
81
Originally posted by: shilala
Originally posted by: MrChad
Originally posted by: shilala
Originally posted by: MrChad
Human sexual identity is much more complex than anything we've observed in other species (to my knowledge). We are talking about people whose internal sexual identity (caused by genetics, hormones, etc.) does not match their external sexual identity. This IS a natural occurrence, just like homosexuality. Modern medical science allows these people to "correct" their external identities, not unlike some other cosmetic surgeries.

I can buy that argument to an extent.
There still stands the "bicurious" phenomena. The "I think I'll give this two way street thing a try". In many cases, homosexuality is a conscious decision rather than a natural born instinct. Either that, or there are certain "levels" that exist naturally between homosexual and heterosexual.
People are who they are. To me, deciding whether I'm going to like or dislike a person based on their sexual preference is just plain short sighted.
If my best bud wakes up tomorrow and says "Ya know, I think I'm gonna suck a dick today", it no more changes the validity of our friendship than if he says "Ya know, I think I'm gonna buy a Toyota today".
As a matter of fact, I'd be more upset about the Toyota.
In the end, It's none of my business whether he sucks that dick or buys that Toyota. It's his life and he's got the right to live it however he sees fit, whether I like it or not.

Sexual preference is a different topic from sexual identity. A gay man may still feel like a man, but nonetheless feels attracted to other men and not women. These feelings cannot really be observed until the teenage years because that's when sexual development occurs.

In the case of "defective" sexual identity, a man (or boy; these things can be observed at young ages) actually feels like a female inside and feels more comfortable with female activities than with male activities. Sometimes these feelings are mild; girls can behave like "tomboys" and still be readily accepted under social norms. Sometimes they are so strong that people need to undergo sex changes in order to feel "normal", otherwise they feel "trapped" in a foreign body.

Again, you should really watch Ma Vie En Rose. It deals with this subject quite well.

When you put it in that light, it sounds like a purely psychological issue rather than a physiological issue.
"I need a sex change because I feel like an outcast because I like doing girl things more than boy things" is a psychological condition, not a physiological condition.
I do believe (and it is scientifically proven) that some men are actually more woman on a biological base than they are man (and vice versa).
The act of having a sex change is purely psychologically motivated. Your statements above solidify that argument.
I don't know how sexual preference ties into this. It's interesting though.
Do men who feel like they are trapped in a woman's body generally develop a sexual attraction to other men?
That's where my understanding breaks down and what makes me think about transexuality different than homosexuality.
I feel that the conditions are both natural, but concurrently I feel that the acting out homosexual urges is biological while having a transgender operation is psychological.

Physiological abnormalities in the brain can manifest themselves as psychological symptoms. As PingSpike mentioned above, men and women have physically and chemically different brains, and men/women afflicted with this condition tend to have brains that more closely resemble the opposite sex (the sex they desire to become).
 

91TTZ

Lifer
Jan 31, 2005
14,374
1
0
Originally posted by: shilala

When you put it in that light, it sounds like a purely psychological issue rather than a physiological issue.
"I need a sex change because I feel like an outcast because I like doing girl things more than boy things" is a psychological condition, not a physiological condition.

That is honestly the way that I feel about this. I feel that it is a mental condition and not a physical condition.

If a man feels that he's a woman in a man's body, I will feel as though that man is an otherwise normal man that has some abnormal mental issues.

But when that man makes the decision to get hormones and become a woman, I feel that the man is no longer a normal man, he's a mentally troubled person who has mutilated their body.

I will always think of the person as a man, and seeing that man in woman's clothes and with breasts just seems freaky to me. I don't know if I could truly accept that man to be a woman.

 

91TTZ

Lifer
Jan 31, 2005
14,374
1
0
Originally posted by: MrChad
As PingSpike mentioned above, men and women have physically and chemically different brains, and men/women afflicted with this condition tend to have brains that more closely resemble the opposite sex (the sex they desire to become).

It is interesting that you say this. While I agree with it (the fact that women and men have chemically and physically different brains), I was blasted for making this same statement in another thread (about the statements that the Harvard president made about women and men having mental differences due to biological causes).

I do think men and women have different brains, and it is reasonable to think that since their brains are different, you'd be able to detect differences in the way they operate.
 

FFactory0x

Diamond Member
Aug 8, 2001
6,991
0
0
WOuldnt you kinda realize you seeing a used to be man when you cant pound your girl in the puntang and must always pound her in the ass.

 

MrChad

Lifer
Aug 22, 2001
13,507
3
81
Originally posted by: 91TTZ
Originally posted by: MrChad
As PingSpike mentioned above, men and women have physically and chemically different brains, and men/women afflicted with this condition tend to have brains that more closely resemble the opposite sex (the sex they desire to become).

It is interesting that you say this. While I agree with it (the fact that women and men have chemically and physically different brains), I was blasted for making this same statement in another thread (about the statements that the Harvard president made about women and men having mental differences due to biological causes).

I do think men and women have different brains, and it is reasonable to think that since their brains are different, you'd be able to detect differences in the way they operate.

So if someone has a female brain but a male body, he's "mentally troubled"? What about cases where a child is born without fully developed genitals? The doctors have to make a call (and they usually choose male, I believe). What if they make the wrong call?
 

Glpster

Banned
Jan 14, 2005
221
0
0
Originally posted by: 91TTZ
Originally posted by: Glpster

The best thing for someone like yourself, though, would be to have a child that is mentally a different gender than they are physically. Nine out of Ten such parents quickly learn to love and accept their child for who they are. The rest, tend to be married to some fundamentalist religious beliefs.

I was agreeing with your post and thought it was pretty solid until this part. This part sounds uncalled for and out of place.

Perhaps. My appologies.

But in regard to another statment about being digusted by finding out after the fact. I think that is why it is better for someone to be upfront about their gender change. (Like the OP's boss)

I would not personally have a problem starting up a new association with, even becoming friends with, someone who had a gender reassignment. I think I would be taken a bit back if I were to have an ongoing association with someone who I wasn't told until much later had gone through such a change. Particularly if it was a romantic relationship.

My presupposition is that I would not have any romantic or physical attraction to someone who had a sex change, but who's to know until they find them self at such a place in life.

I do think that if someone who had a sex change is going to get romantically involved, they should inform the other person early on, so that that person can choose wether they are comfortable going forward with that type of relationship. They may decide they'd rather start off just being friends and see how things go from there.

Yes, this is going to greatly narrow the field of potential romances, but at least they will know they are with someone who is able to accept them (in that way) for who they are.


 

shilala

Lifer
Oct 5, 2004
11,437
1
76
Originally posted by: 91TTZ
Originally posted by: shilala

When you put it in that light, it sounds like a purely psychological issue rather than a physiological issue.
"I need a sex change because I feel like an outcast because I like doing girl things more than boy things" is a psychological condition, not a physiological condition.

That is honestly the way that I feel about this. I feel that it is a mental condition and not a physical condition.

If a man feels that he's a woman in a man's body, I will feel as though that man is an otherwise normal man that has some abnormal mental issues.

But when that man makes the decision to get hormones and become a woman, I feel that the man is no longer a normal man, he's a mentally troubled person who has mutilated their body.

I will always think of the person as a man, and seeing that man in woman's clothes and with breasts just seems freaky to me. I don't know if I could truly accept that man to be a woman.

You missed my point.
The condition comes first. The individual not only feels more like the opposite sex, but is biologically disposed to feel that way. They can't help it, that's the way they were born.
I feel that the ACT of having a transgender operation is psychologically motivated because of societal pressure.
It wasn't the individuals choice to feel like the opposite sex, it's caused directly from their makeup. They can no more adjust the way they feel than I can adjust the way I feel.
The choice to have an operation would stem from concious decisions to make themselves fit into a societal "norm". Imagine being a chick with a dick for a minute. It'd be sheer hell. Imagine you're a woman and I come over and staple a dick on you when it doesn't belong there. Now act like a man because I stapled the dick on there. There's going to be some major problems.

EDIT:
MrChad answered my question with this...
"Physiological abnormalities in the brain can manifest themselves as psychological symptoms. As PingSpike mentioned above, men and women have physically and chemically different brains, and men/women afflicted with this condition tend to have brains that more closely resemble the opposite sex (the sex they desire to become)."
Makes perfect sense.
 

Robor

Elite Member
Oct 9, 1999
16,979
0
76
A former coworker of mine went through the entire sex change process (I beleive it's called Sexual Reassignment Surgery) a few years ago. I wasn't very close with the him but one of my lunch buddies was a good friend of his and they kept in touch after he left the company. Well one day my friend sends me an Email with our former coworker's drivers license attached - including wig, makeup, and new legal name. I was shocked but not sickened. To each their own and if becoming a woman makes you happy then more power to you. The way I see it, if something like that bothers you that much you have your own issues you need to deal with.

My lunch buddy still keeps in touch with her and she's happy with her new life. According to her she was born in the wrong body and the surgery fixed it. I guess people can agree or disagree but that's how she feels so how can anyone tell her that she's wrong? FWIW, she claims to be a lesbian. I'm still confused on that part. She went from a man attracted to woman to a sex-changed woman attracted to women. Not trying to make light of a serious situation but talk about limiting your dating chances! ;)
 

FoBoT

No Lifer
Apr 30, 2001
63,082
12
76
fobot.com
Feelings, nothing more than feelings,
Trying to forget my feelings of love.
Teardrops rolling down on my face,
Trying to forget my feelings of love.

Feelings, for all my life I'll feel it.
I wish I've never met you, girl;
You'll never come again.

Feelings, wo-o-o feelings,
wo-o-o, feel you again in my arms.

Feelings, feelings like I've never lost you
And feelings like I've never have
You again in my heart.

Feelings, for all my life I'll feel it.
I wish I've never met you, girl;
You'll never come again.

Feelings, feelings like I've never lost you
And feelings like I've never have
You again in my life.

Feelings, wo-o-o feelings,
wo-o-o, feelings again in my arms.
Feelings

Feelings, wo-o-o feelings,
wo-o-o, feelings again in my arms.
Feelings
 

episodic

Lifer
Feb 7, 2004
11,088
2
81
He did this because to transition and for the doctor to agree to the gender reassignment, they have to come out and live openly as a woman. This was probably part of the medically ordered process to go through