I have the guts to say it.

[Matt1970]

We've spent the last 30 years squeezing every last dollar out of the lower and middle class, and wonder why we can't spend our way out of a recession anymore.

You care to enlighten us how you come to that conclusion? The bottom 50% pay no Federal income tax at all.

 

[Jhhnn]

You care to enlighten us how you come to that conclusion? The bottom 50% pay no Federal income tax at all.

If the income distribution of 1980 had been maintained, median families would be earning ~40% more. That's the squeeze referenced.

 

[Matt1970]

If the income distribution of 1980 had been maintained, median families would be earning ~40% more. That's the squeeze referenced.

Exactly who is doing this distributing?

 

[Matt1970]

What about sales tax breaks or refunds for purchased items that are made in the USA? I am the first to admit that economics makes my head hurt, but maybe a partial or full refund program to raise awareness regarding the importance of buying US made products? Or would the net effect be a negative?

Seems hypocritical when people bitch about the elites using off shore accounts, take advantage of cheaper foriegn labor, .etc, while at the same time using the products made by those same people to save a few bucks.

I like that quite a bit.

 

[Pr0d1gy]

You care to enlighten us how you come to that conclusion? The bottom 50% pay no Federal income tax at all.

That is because we can't man. At all. If we had that 40% boost that Jhhnn spoke about we could actually contribute to the economy, and we certainly would be happy to.

I'd hate to call you a liar, but I haven't seen any of your posts that resemble anything like Libertarian or conservative thinking. So I won't call you a liar.

Fine, then I won't call you a political dinosaur with a brainwashed peanut in between your ears.

 

[davmat787]

I like that quite a bit.

Thank you, I was bound to come up with a half way decent idea after being here this long.

I live in a state with sales tax and no income tax, but OR just to the south does not have a sales tax so that would have to be taken into account.

But the core question is this: what pays a bigger dividend to the US, a 9% sales tax paid on a foreign made item, or no sales tax paid but the item purchased is produced domestically?

I would guess, and hope, the latter is true. That the great benefit comes with the domestic good and no sales tax paid. The .gov is most likely going to piss away that tax money on some stupid bullshit anyway.

 

[Pr0d1gy]

Thank you, I was bound to come up with a half way decent idea after being here this long.

I live in a state with sales tax and no income tax, but OR just to the south does not have a sales tax so that would have to be taken into account.

But the core question is this: what pays a bigger dividend to the US, a 9% sales tax paid on a foreign made item, or no sales tax paid but the item purchased is produced domestically?

I would guess, and hope, the latter is true. That the great benefit comes with the domestic good and no sales tax paid. The .gov is most likely going to piss away that tax money on some stupid bullshit anyway.

Most of us have no choice but to buy foreign goods. We either have no choices of domestic products in certain fields or cannot afford the ones that are built here.

 

[trenchfoot]

We have eight/six years of incontrovertible proof that the Repub ideology that got set free and unbridled as manifested in the form of Bush/Cheney and their rubber stamping House/Senate ultimately led to an economic disaster the likes of which we're still mired in. There's also a bunch of Repub criminals that are still in jail from making their ideological dreams come true.

Not only have the Repubs had to deal with this yoke made of pachyderm turd hung around their necks, they've had to deal with having a black president getting elected explicitly due to their complicity in blindly and wantonly handing over the surplus and every single penny that was in the treasury to the richest among us along with maxing out the nation's credit card that was wholly spent on looking for WMD's in some foreign land (and coincidentally) creating huge profits for Pimp Cheney's whore sidekick Hally Burton.

Why we're here arguing about whether trickle down voodoo economics worked or not is moot.

The Repubs themselves proved it's a lie.

 

[monovillage]

This is the new joke when it comes to the right wing. If you don't repeat the talking points of the off the cliff super extreme right that is the republican party, EVERYONE ELSE must be "liberal."

The idea that the democrats are middle/right would make their brain explode. If you move so far to the right that every opposing view equals "liberal" in your eyes... well.. you don't see a problem with that?

See a problem with you making shit up? Nope.

 

[DucatiMonster696]

I think it had to do with corporate greed. By cutting quality of materials and demanding increased production, instead of just creating more product by (wait for it, hiring more employees and building new factories in this country) they turned our production into a joke that Americans quickly found to be lacking.

My family has always bought American cars and the quality went to shit in the 70's, due to the leaders cutting materials costs by using shoddy material and forcing workers to make more mistakes by selling them on the concept of productivity while overworking them into a zombie-like state.

It is all pretty obvious if you read between the lines.

What you call "Greed" is not "Greed" but in fact US businesses reacting to foreign competition in the marketplace and producing more value priced goods and services that consumers are willing to purchase at given price. Furthermore competition from outside firms (especially in the car industry) has forced US businesses to continually seek cost cutting measures to keep up with foreign producers who often have access to lower cost labor, subsidized resources, or some other competitiveness edge that is not present in the US such as a less legislatively hostile business environment which does not increase the cost of their goods and services. So their cost cutting actions have nothing to do with "Greed" and everything to do with keeping up with competition they face from outside foreign businesses in the US and abroad. Of which said price increases would have you railing about "GREED" from US producers after you just forced increased costs onto them and they have to react in a common sense approach in an attempt to stay in the black rather then in the red. Additionally you would also further give foreign producers a greater edge because their prices for their goods and services would be far lower then their US rivals and effectively drive a stake in the heart of US manufacturers and their ability to compete globally and locally.

 

[DucatiMonster696]

We have eight/six years of incontrovertible proof that the Repub ideology that got set free and unbridled as manifested in the form of Bush/Cheney and their rubber stamping House/Senate ultimately led to an economic disaster the likes of which we're still mired in. There's also a bunch of Repub criminals that are still in jail from making their ideological dreams come true.

Not only have the Repubs had to deal with this yoke made of pachyderm turd hung around their necks, they've had to deal with having a black president getting elected explicitly due to their complicity in blindly and wantonly handing over the surplus and every single penny that was in the treasury to the richest among us along with maxing out the nation's credit card that was wholly spent on looking for WMD's in some foreign land (and coincidentally) creating huge profits for Pimp Cheney's whore sidekick Hally Burton.

Why we're here arguing about whether trickle down voodoo economics worked or not is moot.

The Repubs themselves proved it's a lie.

Really? Because government shitting out massive amounts of unsustainable debt, ramping up the shenanigans with our monetary policy to keep said spending going and thus driving up inflation which eats away at the value of our currency, along with the signing of lopsided trade treaties by our government exposing our labor markets and consumer markets to nations like China, and imposing regulations which make doing business far more costly in the US vs overseas have not had a damn thing to do with the economic decline of the US?

LOLOLOL silly leftists.

 

[DucatiMonster696]

If the income distribution of 1980 had been maintained, median families would be earning ~40% more. That's the squeeze referenced.

If we did not devalue the fuck of our currency via reckless monetary polices to keep the spending party in government going then maybe, just maybe wages would be able to keep pace with inflation.

 

[Pr0d1gy]

What you call "Greed" is not "Greed" but in fact US businesses reacting to foreign competition in the marketplace and producing more value priced goods and services that consumers are willing to purchase at given price. Furthermore competition from outside firms (especially in the car industry) has forced US businesses to continually seek cost cutting measures to keep up with foreign producers who often have access to lower cost labor, subsidized resources, or some other competitiveness edge that is not present in the US such as a less legislatively hostile business environment which does not increase the cost of their goods and services. So their cost cutting actions have nothing to do with "Greed" and everything to do with keeping up with competition they face from outside foreign businesses in the US and abroad. Of which said price increases would have you railing about "GREED" from US producers after you just forced increased costs onto them and they have to react in a common sense approach in an attempt to stay in the black rather then in the red. Additionally you would also further give foreign producers a greater edge because their prices for their goods and services would be far lower then their US rivals and effectively drive a stake in the heart of US manufacturers and their ability to compete globally and locally.

It's a lot easier to stay in the black when you aren't paying yourself $100 million a year guy. Just sayin....

As for your little Americans like cheap, shoddy goods belief. I guess it would be easier for Americans to buy quality, long lasting goods if there wasn't magically a Recession everytime a Republican goes out of the Oval Office. This is what it looks like when your leadership fails you.

'Murica, fuck yeah!

 

[EagleKeeper]

Trickle down theory is a failure.

It's time to try Trickle Up.

Supply side economics has failed.

Its time to try demand side economics.

Where are you getting the money for trickle up.

It was tried under Bush - $600/family.
How did that work?

we know that throwing money at a wall and hoping that it sticks works;
pumping up the public sectors with Federal funds works?
Both tried and proven under Obama - why try something else?

 

[Pr0d1gy]

1972, Nixon begins Watergate, gets caught, RECESSION ENSUES:
http://recession.org/history/1970s-oil-crisis/


1992 Bush voted out for lying about taxes, RECESSION ENSUES:
http://www.time.com/time/covers/0,16641,19920113,00.html
^^^We almost voted in Ross Perot after that little fiasco.

2008 Bush 2.0 leaves White House after 2nd term after the entire economy almost collapsed on his watch, RECESSION ENSUES:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Late-2000s_recession

Yeah, I can see why so many people support the Republican cause.....wait, what? Derp.

 

[Matt1970]

1972, Nixon begins Watergate, gets caught, RECESSION ENSUES:
http://recession.org/history/1970s-oil-crisis/


1992 Bush voted out for lying about taxes, RECESSION ENSUES:
http://www.time.com/time/covers/0,16641,19920113,00.html
^^^We almost voted in Ross Perot after that little fiasco.

2008 Bush 2.0 leaves White House after 2nd term after the entire economy almost collapsed on his watch, RECESSION ENSUES:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Late-2000s_recession

Yeah, I can see why so many people support the Republican cause.....wait, what? Derp.

You are actually going to forget the recession whens Clinton and Carter left?

 

[SparkyJJO]

You are actually going to forget the recession whens Clinton and Carter left?

Of course. Fits his agenda.

 

[Pr0d1gy]

You are actually going to forget the recession whens Clinton and Carter left?

That actually began on Reagan's watch, but of course I know that had to be on Carter because he had been out of office for years:

"The peak of the recession was in November and December 1982"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Early_1980s_recession

How does that have anything to do with Carter?

 

[techs]

So, basically, we are going to keep doing everything possible to get more money into the hands of the rich in the hope that all the previous experience was wrong and it miraculously fixes the economy?

Faith based economics?

 

[Pr0d1gy]

So, basically, we are going to keep doing everything possible to get more money into the hands of the rich in the hope that all the previous experience was wrong and it miraculously fixes the economy?

Faith based economics?

Yes, Wall Street is now the church and Republicans are your new Jesus. It's mind boggling that people still trust or vote for these people.

 

[Jhhnn]

Where are you getting the money for trickle up.

It was tried under Bush - $600/family.
How did that work?

we know that throwing money at a wall and hoping that it sticks works;
pumping up the public sectors with Federal funds works?
Both tried and proven under Obama - why try something else?

How unbelievably dim that you'd even offer that. A single one time payment of $600-1200/family in no way compensates for shrinking share of national income, and for the decoupling of median income vs GDP.

You insult even your own ideologically crippled intelligence.

 

[Matt1970]

How unbelievably dim that you'd even offer that. A single one time payment of $600-1200/family in no way compensates for shrinking share of national income, and for the decoupling of median income vs GDP.

You insult even your own ideologically crippled intelligence.

Is that all you have is to constantly denounce people's intelligence? You are like a broken record stuck on the worst song ever written.

 

[Matt1970]

How unbelievably dim that you'd even offer that. A single one time payment of $600-1200/family in no way compensates for shrinking share of national income, and for the decoupling of median income vs GDP.

You insult even your own ideologically crippled intelligence.

And maybe before you go around insulting people's intelligence, you should get your facts straight. Median income vs GDP started to drop in the 70's, well before Trickle Down Economics.

 

[Jhhnn]

Is that all you have is to constantly denounce people's intelligence? You are like a broken record stuck on the worst song ever written.

I just do it for people stuck on stupid, you included.

So, uhh, you agree with the idea that a one time tax refund demonstrates that trickle up economics don't work, or what? That decoupling isn't real?

Your assertion about decoupling beginning in the 70's is pure obfuscation & distraction. When that minor divergence became apparent, we should have worked to counter it, not worked to enable it further with Reaganomics. What should we do about it now, other than make excuses, the standard answer from the Right?

 

[Matt1970]

I just do it for people stuck on stupid, you included.

So, uhh, you agree with the idea that a one time tax refund demonstrates that trickle up economics don't work, or what? That decoupling isn't real?

Your assertion about decoupling beginning in the 70's is pure obfuscation & distraction. When that minor divergence became apparent, we should have worked to counter it, not worked to enable it further with Reaganomics. What should we do about it now, other than make excuses, the standard answer from the Right?

I said nothing about the one time tax refund. You are the one distracting. I am merely pointing out our problems began well before Trickle Down. The one thing that really escalated in the 70’s and is even more true today is our demand for imported crap. Untill we fix that we are always going to have problems that no tax rate, refund, or stimulus will ever fix. Bring the demand back for American Made Products and the jobs return. When the demand for factory workers rise, then so will the pay. When worker pay increases then everyone wins. There's your trickle up. Artificially proping up worker pay without demand will never work.

I know your common reply is Corporations are shipping jobs overseas. Well I have new for you, that cheap ass labor has always been there. They didn't start shipping those jobs overseas untill lately and Corporations are just naturally going to follow the flow of money.