I get conservative guys point about public assistance

[agent00f]

Hey, don't be so hard on yourself (that's our job lol ), I for one think you're a real original "thinker". I mean, who that has posted here has been batshit crazy enough to think he's historically marking other posters as racist for strawmen he's cooked up and attributed to someone else? We had a JKWhiteGuilter here during the '17 year old thug shot dead' thread and even he wasn't as nutty - see how special (ed) you are?

Yeah it's real unfair you're marked as pretty racist.

 

[chucky2]

Please stop the thread crapping....everyone....

I'm sorry, I'll stop making fun of AgentFail...I get carried away I admit (it's just too fun)...

 

[agent00f]

Please stop the thread crapping....everyone....

Seems to me that allowing chucky to represent his ideology & colleagues illustrates american conservatism at its core. That's a somewhat greater purpose than the usual background noise here.

 

[chucky2]

Yeah it's real unfair you're marked as pretty racist.

Mmmmmust resist....

 

[Jhhnn]

Mmmmm...I'm sure those Intellectual Dems scrapping for a dollar aren't offering themselves as sacrifice to the Dem elite though, amirite? Poor indoctrinated Jhhnn...

Your "they're just as bad!" routine is duly noted. It's where Righties go when confronted with the avaricious greed of who they adulate & follow.

When we come back to the subject at hand, you have no answers to poverty other than "Fuck 'em!"

 

[chucky2]

Your "they're just as bad!" routine is duly noted. It's where Righties go when confronted with the avaricious greed of who they adulate & follow.

When we come back to the subject at hand, you have no answers to poverty other than "Fuck 'em!"

Your avoidance of Reality is also duly noted LOL.

I'm sorry you're unable to explain away what are hundreds of abuses of welfare I've personally seen. When you can do that, coherently, maybe you'll be free of your indoctrination. Given how bad the Republican who touched you scarred you, I'm going to go with....not holding my breath...

 

[child of wonder]

The biggest problem is a question that was asked earlier in this thread:

"If all their government assistance ended tomorrow, what would they do?"

One answer is crime. Others would be prostitution, drugs, or worse.

The core issue here is the result of this family being on government assistance for so long. The result is grown adults with no marketable skills, no work history, and who see their disabilities as a means to garner income. The human mind is a powerful thing and if you believe the only way to make ends meet is to have debilitating physical and mental ailments, your body will eventually respond.

This is not to say SSDI should go away or that there aren't real people with real disabilities who have no recourse but to rely on the state. All I'm saying is we should encourage these people to gain and maintain work skills even while collecting disability payments and not completely pulling the rug out from underneath of them when they "earn too much." We want everyone to be productive in some way, if possible, and a system where their very livelihood depends on remaining on government assistance because should they take even a few steps towards helping themselves, a flood of benefits are terminated which de-incentivizes them from trying.

I wouldn't be where I am today without government assistance and I'm happy our country offers it. But it can't be a way of life and we can't make it an "all or nothing" system where the longer people use it, the more trapped they are in that system with little hope of escape.

 

[Atreus21]

The biggest problem is a question that was asked earlier in this thread:

"If all their government assistance ended tomorrow, what would they do?"

One answer is crime. Others would be prostitution, drugs, or worse.

Another answer is that they might find a job. Despite the best efforts of minimum-wage advocates, there are still low-skill jobs available, even in New Orleans.

The core issue here is the result of this family being on government assistance for so long. The result is grown adults with no marketable skills, no work history, and who see their disabilities as a means to garner income. The human mind is a powerful thing and if you believe the only way to make ends meet is to have debilitating physical and mental ailments, your body will eventually respond.

This is not to say SSDI should go away or that there aren't real people with real disabilities who have no recourse but to rely on the state. All I'm saying is we should encourage these people to gain and maintain work skills even while collecting disability payments and not completely pulling the rug out from underneath of them when they "earn too much." We want everyone to be productive in some way, if possible, and a system where their very livelihood depends on remaining on government assistance because should they take even a few steps towards helping themselves, a flood of benefits are terminated which de-incentivizes them from trying.

I wouldn't be where I am today without government assistance and I'm happy our country offers it. But it can't be a way of life and we can't make it an "all or nothing" system where the longer people use it, the more trapped they are in that system with little hope of escape.

My perspective: When the chips are down and the compulsion isn't there, I'm a very lazy person. If I could get my meals and housing without doing any work more meaningful than playing TF2 all day, I'm frankly scared I might do exactly that.

Two things keep me from that: One, my wife would never permit it. And two, social stigma. Sometimes people like me need a kick in the pants to make them productive, to make them act like adults.

I'm not at all in favor of consigning truly indigent citizens to despair. But I do think that over-provisioning otherwise able-minded and -bodied people will surely destroy their motivation and drive. And their children will suffer for that.

 

[Jhhnn]

Your avoidance of Reality is also duly noted LOL.

I'm sorry you're unable to explain away what are hundreds of abuses of welfare I've personally seen. When you can do that, coherently, maybe you'll be free of your indoctrination. Given how bad the Republican who touched you scarred you, I'm going to go with....not holding my breath...

I won't even try to explain away your fantasies or strident self righteousness. Welfare abuse isn't shit compared to the abuse that the American people have suffered at the hands of the high priests of greed & the religion of trickle down economics.

More to the point, you're pretty much proud to be ignorant, having admitted to not even reading the article linked in the OP or much of anything else on the subject of poverty. If you can judge poor people to be immoral, then that justifies them living on the edge of desperation & Trump shitting in gold toilets. The fact that he's rich means that he's moral, right?

 

[child of wonder]

Another answer is that they might find a job. Despite the best efforts of minimum-wage advocates, there are still low-skill jobs available, even in New Orleans.

In the case of the 32 year old mother of 4 with an IQ of 75 in this story, her odds of getting a job are nearly zero. This isn't the case for everyone on SSDI, but

My perspective: When the chips are down and the compulsion isn't there, I'm a very lazy person. If I could get my meals and housing without doing any work more meaningful than playing TF2 all day, I'm frankly scared I might do exactly that.

Two things keep me from that: One, my wife would never permit it. And two, social stigma. Sometimes people like me need a kick in the pants to make them productive, to make them act like adults.

I'm not at all in favor of consigning truly indigent citizens to despair. But I do think that over-provisioning otherwise able-minded and -bodied people will surely destroy their motivation and drive. And their children will suffer for that.

I agree. SSDI should be for the those who are truly temporarily or permanently disabled and we should encourage them to find ways to stay productive without totally ripping out the safety net from underneath them.

 

[Jaskalas]

The biggest problem is a question that was asked earlier in this thread:

"If all their government assistance ended tomorrow, what would they do?"

One answer is crime. Others would be prostitution, drugs, or worse.

It appears Alabama is leading a charge to find out.
13 Alabama counties saw 85 percent drop in food stamp participation after work requirements restarted

 

[[DHT]Osiris]

It appears Alabama is leading a charge to find out.
13 Alabama counties saw 85 percent drop in food stamp participation after work requirements restarted

I guess that makes sense, the drop was within 3 months, and 3 months was the timeframe of work requirement, so in theory 85% found a way to get work within 3 months, or got booted off the program.

I'd be curious what percentage actually found work vs got told to go pound sand and is now eating ramen.

 

[Jhhnn]

It appears Alabama is leading a charge to find out.
13 Alabama counties saw 85 percent drop in food stamp participation after work requirements restarted

Which just means that there's less money going into poor communities & counties, apparently something that conservatives see as some sort of victory.

 

[pauldun170]

Haven't read thread but this seems like a natural home for this link
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...e-benefits-study-says/?utm_term=.b99a94e663c9

alternate
https://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2017/06/race-safety-net-welfare/529203/

 

[[DHT]Osiris]

Which just means that there's less money going into poor communities & counties, apparently something that conservatives see as some sort of victory.

That does depend on whether or not those who are no longer receiving food stamps are now working. I find it unlikely that there were just tons of jobs waiting around for them to jump off the govt dole, though.

 

[Jhhnn]

That does depend on whether or not those who are no longer receiving food stamps are now working. I find it unlikely that there were just tons of jobs waiting around for them to jump off the govt dole, though.

Don't kid yourself. Job opportunities in really poor rural places in this country are basically non-existent. It's not like the Job Creators intend to change it, either, or they already would have. Reducing the total cash flow in such places just makes it worse, not better.

 

[crashtech]

Not all rich people are oppressors, and not all poor people are victims, but that doesn't fit the narrative.

It appears Alabama is leading a charge to find out.
13 Alabama counties saw 85 percent drop in food stamp participation after work requirements restarted

The counties - Greene, Hale, Perry, Dallas, Lowndes, Wilcox, Monroe, Conecuh, Clarke, Washington, Choctaw, Sumter and Barbour - had been exempt from a change that limited able-bodied adults without dependents to three months of Supplemental Nutrition Assistance Program benefits within a three-year time frame unless they were working or participating in an approved training program.

That's an interesting tidbit right there, it would be good to know if there are onerous barriers to entry into these programs.

 

[[DHT]Osiris]

Don't kid yourself. Job opportunities in really poor rural places in this country are basically non-existent. It's not like the Job Creators intend to change it, either, or they already would have. Reducing the total cash flow in such places just makes it worse, not better.

Oh, I know. Just pointing out the silliness of the situation, and the premise that things are 'better' by lowering social program usage. I've lived in very depressed areas, and it's frankly depressing.

 

[kinev]

Aaaaaaand welcome to the ignore list, Kinev. I'm not even going to dignify that pile of false analogies, non-sequiturs, and outright deception (e.g., the conservatives give more absolute dollars, but it's mostly to their own churches, and that study doesn't track the actual benefit to the needy...) with the point by point deconstruction it's begging for. This is so amateur it feels like I wasted my time even replying...

Better to bury your head in the sand than deal with the dissonance in your own thinking that is glaringly apparent. Easier to stay on your false high horse and maintain that identity.

 

[agent00f]

The biggest problem is a question that was asked earlier in this thread:

"If all their government assistance ended tomorrow, what would they do?"

One answer is crime. Others would be prostitution, drugs, or worse.

The core issue here is the result of this family being on government assistance for so long. The result is grown adults with no marketable skills, no work history, and who see their disabilities as a means to garner income. The human mind is a powerful thing and if you believe the only way to make ends meet is to have debilitating physical and mental ailments, your body will eventually respond.

This is not to say SSDI should go away or that there aren't real people with real disabilities who have no recourse but to rely on the state. All I'm saying is we should encourage these people to gain and maintain work skills even while collecting disability payments and not completely pulling the rug out from underneath of them when they "earn too much." We want everyone to be productive in some way, if possible, and a system where their very livelihood depends on remaining on government assistance because should they take even a few steps towards helping themselves, a flood of benefits are terminated which de-incentivizes them from trying.

I wouldn't be where I am today without government assistance and I'm happy our country offers it. But it can't be a way of life and we can't make it an "all or nothing" system where the longer people use it, the more trapped they are in that system with little hope of escape.

In the case of the 32 year old mother of 4 with an IQ of 75 in this story, her odds of getting a job are nearly zero. This isn't the case for everyone on SSDI, but



I agree. SSDI should be for the those who are truly temporarily or permanently disabled and we should encourage them to find ways to stay productive without totally ripping out the safety net from underneath them.

Funny that gainful employment was already the goal of clinton's centrist welfare reforms from the 90's, yet the same people still think that's what the gov should try one of these days. Seems the takeaway here is that governing and policy is basically pointless far as influencing the popular political mindset. The populace would remain ignorant of it, and they probably don't care anyway.

 

[Azuma Hazuki]

The "conservatives" don't care. Full stop. They don't know these things, and they don't want to know, because it would force them to re-evaluate their worldview (see "motivated ignorance"). You are not going to reach these people, because they refuse to be reached.

 

[DAPUNISHER]

But Cons have no problem paying for punishment. They'd rather pay $4K a month to imprison the mother and and later another $8K per month to imprison 2/3 of her kids after they leave foster care and end up breaking the law than to pay $2K now.

It's pathetic.

Some lack the ability to critically assess a problem that way. Or understand that incarceration and recidivism costs far more than addressing poverty in a holistic manner. Others support the prison industrial complex because it profits them, family, and/or friends, financially, to do so. Some are functional sociopaths, lacking empathy for others. They are the ones that mimic us in an attempt to hide what they are. But they inevitably let enough slip to spot them for what they are. Definitely a few in this thread. Some are petty, selfish, hypocrites, incapable of being logically consistent about why they act and react the way they do. Often hiding behind religious doctrines or small sample anecdotal examples to rationalize their contempt for others.

And then there is the spouting off about enforcement to prevent fraud. As if the costs of said enforcement would be more sustainable and effective. Deluding themselves into thinking it would be a surgeon's scalpel, not a shrapnel grenade.

I would prefer to live in a society that is defined by how we treat the least fortunate of us, not the most fortunate. That is the essence of the issue, are we going to be a people that keeps trickling down shit from above, onto the poor, or not? On a related note: Game of thrones taking the metaphor and making it the way the city is laid out, made me laugh and do a "What you did there, I see it".

 

[Azuma Hazuki]

And yet what I made this point, Kinev decided to deflect it and turn it into "and how much do YOU help?" (And the answer turned out to be "a hell of a lot more than Kinev suspected").

How do we get this point across to the people who most need to see it?

 

[[DHT]Osiris]

And yet what I made this point, Kinev decided to deflect it and turn it into "and how much do YOU help?" (And the answer turned out to be "a hell of a lot more than Kinev suspected").

How do we get this point across to the people who most need to see it?

I don't think we do. I think it might be easier to get them riled up on some unimportant issues to keep them distracted while the normies pass things that are important. Maybe we can find some nice wedge issues, like gays_doing_a_thing or religion_stuff_happening?

"Diplomacy is the art of saying 'nice doggie' until you can find a rock"

 

[agent00f]

And yet what I made this point, Kinev decided to deflect it and turn it into "and how much do YOU help?" (And the answer turned out to be "a hell of a lot more than Kinev suspected").

How do we get this point across to the people who most need to see it?

They already know what you're saying, they're just playing dumb because it comes off better than appearing wantonly degenerate. Eg. they know that "I'd rather give money to the rich even if the poor starve to death" is a losing argument in modern western society. Also keep in mind many of these people are "Christians".