I get conservative guys point about public assistance

[yllus]

I too had my eyes opened some years ago about users/abusers of welfare. My thinking has gradually moved to be:

1. The welfare system needs to be simplified, probably to the point of being turned into a Universal Basic Income (UBI) system. The amount of hoops one must jump through to stay on welfare is incredible - you've basically got one appointment a week to travel to wherever the hell the welfare office near you is to meet with someone (who doesn't care) and show up with documentation proving that you really are looking for a job or have a doctor's note that proves you can't look for a job or something else. It wreaks havoc with your ability to, like, actually get a job. Consequently, the administration of the welfare system is immensely expensive. The most effective - and most small-government - model would be to simply give you cash and let you best spend it however you want: By buying product, spending it to convert part of your house into an office, whatever. It is by far the best idea to getting people off of the dole. Seriously, conservatives should be the most on board with the UBI idea.

2. Any and all free trade agreements should have massive programs in the style of the Trade Adjustment Assistance program. I believe strongly in the values of free trade - it really does ultimately help every citizen, rich or poor - but it also forces changes, and those changes should be subsidized or fully paid for. That way we get cheaper goods and better jobs, instead or just the former.

3. Relevant to the U.S. and not to my home country: It's time to get universal, state-paid healthcare in place. The lack of that system means workers (especially those with families or with pre-existing health issues) are pushed towards large-ish employers - yet the best chance they have to get out of poverty is small business that they or neighbours run. They're massively incentivized by the lack of health care from starting or joining small businesses. Again, conservatives should be the first on board for this. It unlocks so much human capital and freedom of movement.

 

[mikeymikec]

When the Conservative party re-gained power in the UK, one of their big campaigning points was to get people who didn't need (health related) welfare off it and back into work. They instituted a new evaluation system for determining who should be on such welfare.

That system experienced something like a 66% reinstatement of benefits on appeal, stories abound of people who were terminally ill were told that they were fit for work and died within weeks of being told that, as well as people who were mentally ill who ended up committing suicide after being told that they were fit for work.

Before they regained power, I had spent two weeks in hospital which resulted in me being diagnosed with a chronic digestive disorder. I had been spending my days rushing to the toilet with diarrhoea 10+ times per day, most foods I tried exacerbated the problem, which had steadily gotten worse over a period of about 9-12 months. I had a BMI of 14.8. I was given a massive dose of steroids to clear up the inflammation in my bowels which started the road to recovery, but that was my BMI when I left hospital. I could not sit for anything more than a short while because the muscles in my butt checks had wasted away, portions of my hair had also fallen out. To summarise, I was not in a good way. When I asked for a sick note so I could claim disability benefit while I recovered, he said the best that I'd likely manage was 2 weeks before the benefits people would want to withdraw disability benefit. Three months later, I had gained maybe half a stone and started feeling like I could actually work again, but I chose self-employment because I still had to make a lot of allowances for my condition and its effect on my ability to work. If my parents weren't in a position to take me in during that time of my life, I wonder how I could have managed.

So while I'm absolutely certain that there are people who abuse the system, I'm pretty sceptical when politicians try to convince people that sickness benefits cheats are the source of their problems.

 

[sandorski]

When the Conservative party re-gained power in the UK, one of their big campaigning points was to get people who didn't need (health related) welfare off it and back into work. They instituted a new evaluation system for determining who should be on such welfare.

That system experienced something like a 66% reinstatement of benefits on appeal, stories abound of people who were terminally ill were told that they were fit for work and died within weeks of being told that, as well as people who were mentally ill who ended up committing suicide after being told that they were fit for work.

Before they regained power, I had spent two weeks in hospital which resulted in me being diagnosed with a chronic digestive disorder. I had been spending my days rushing to the toilet with diarrhoea 10+ times per day, most foods I tried exacerbated the problem, which had steadily gotten worse over a period of about 9-12 months. I had a BMI of 14.8. I was given a massive dose of steroids to clear up the inflammation in my bowels which started the road to recovery, but that was my BMI when I left hospital. I could not sit for anything more than a short while because the muscles in my butt checks had wasted away, portions of my hair had also fallen out. To summarise, I was not in a good way. When I asked for a sick note so I could claim disability benefit while I recovered, he said the best that I'd likely manage was 2 weeks before the benefits people would want to withdraw disability benefit. Three months later, I had gained maybe half a stone and started feeling like I could actually work again, but I chose self-employment because I still had to make a lot of allowances for my condition and its effect on my ability to work. If my parents weren't in a position to take me in during that time of my life, I wonder how I could have managed.

So while I'm absolutely certain that there are people who abuse the system, I'm pretty sceptical when politicians try to convince people that sickness benefits cheats are the source of their problems.

Last time I gained Stones, my Gall Bladder was removed.....

 

[Jaskalas]

If we just magically implement a 25% tax on our income...

I'll let you in on a little secret. It's the value I care about, not how it is obtained. As labor continues to decline I expect personal income to also free fall. It would make a poor long term tax source for UBI. The long term solution is taxing production. The automated factories will provide the same value to our economic system that labor and employment once did. We must plan a transition where it's ultimately the robots "paying for" UBI. I wonder if you'll have hurt feelings then.

IN ADDITION to the 25% we already pay (plus social security + medicare)

Ah yes, you paid attention. There's more to government policy than just UBI. I imagine Medicare for all would require another 13-15%, with a smaller piece for all remaining government functions. Total expectations range between 40-50%. Social security would not exist, UBI covers that.

I never said it was cheap... just necessary.

...everything will just magically be peachy. I mean, that won't make the middle class take a huge nosedive in their overall life at the expense of redistributing their wealth will it? That couldn't possibly widen the gap of rich vs. poor even more COULD IT? No, of course not

Middle class? This is America, our middle class has been getting economically murdered and it has EVERYTHING to do with widening income inequality. It's the decline of labor, loss of opportunities, greater risks... you name it. You might think you have some selfish reason to fight against modest taxation but we need those programs to fight for everyone else. And some day that WILL include you and your family. Do not think for a second that your life style would be maintained if the consumers are too poor to purchase. You depend on the economy and the economy depends on them.

There are NO alternative economic theories for accomplishing the goal of stabilizing Capitalism. This social safety net is the only option I am aware of, and the need for it grows by the year in an accelerating trend. The decline began over 40 years ago but modern advances in automation are poised to end the labor based economy as you know it. This moment requires a bold initiative to meet the challenges that we face.

Anyone is free to present another solution. Right now I don't think another one exists.

 

[bshole]

Long and worthwhile read:

http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/on...ontinue/ar-BBBOEaR?li=BBmkt5R&ocid=spartandhp

I just don't know what to think. There is definitely some form of enabling going on and she appears to have not learned or been able to make the right decision on things in life.
However I am truly torn its not my job to judge people, I want to help people but sometimes helping seems to do more harm than good.

snippets for the lazy:
Young mom, everyone in the family has some kind of disability. She seems to know more than medical professionals, everyone is on some kind of med. She seems disappointed that two kids don't have autism because it reduces her monthly check (I'm speculating and judging about this)
She appears to have trouble setting limits for the kids and doesn't seem disappointed with failure.
Plus the classic $300 per month cell phone bill.

Thoughts guys @glenn1 @Doc Savage Fan @werepossum not meant to be a call out so only contribute if you want

The base problem is this. Don't you dare blame the poor. Blame the wealthy capitalists who mortgaged all of our futures by purchasing our politicians. The amount of damage they have done to their fellow Americans is nearly beyond comprehension.

 

[Fanatical Meat]

The base problem is this. Don't you dare blame the poor. Blame the wealthy capitalists who mortgaged all of our futures by purchasing our politicians. The amount of damage they have done to their fellow Americans is nearly beyond comprehension.

Yeah however it still doesn't address why a Mother hopes her twins are autistic so she can get $1200 in benefits to pay bills.
a) what a horrible thing to want
b) shouldn't the $1200 be spent on treatment not telecom & furniture debt?

 

[Jhhnn]

The base problem is this. Don't you dare blame the poor. Blame the wealthy capitalists who mortgaged all of our futures by purchasing our politicians. The amount of damage they have done to their fellow Americans is nearly beyond comprehension.

It's what happens when you let the greediest people in the solar system run the economy- top down class warfare in which ordinary Americans get hammered so that multi national mega billionaires can reap greater profit.

Conservatives have been voting for it since Reagan. No matter what else Repubs promise to deliver they'll deliver more of the same on that front, then blame the powerless for the deeds of the powerful.

The economy? It's just the way that the investor class has made it, because they have the power. We gave it to them back in the 80's when we went along with the basic slogan- "Greed is good!"

 

[Fanatical Meat]

It's what happens when you let the greediest people in the solar system run the economy- top down class warfare in which ordinary Americans get hammered so that multi national mega billionaires can reap greater profit.

Conservatives have been voting for it since Reagan. No matter what else Repubs promise to deliver they'll deliver more of the same on that front, then blame the powerless for the deeds of the powerful.

The economy? It's just the way that the investor class has made it, because they have the power. We gave it to them back in the 80's when we went along with the basic slogan- "Greed is good!"

Yeah however it still doesn't address why a Mother hopes her twins are autistic so she can get $1200 in benefits to pay bills.
a) what a horrible thing to want
b) shouldn't the $1200 be spent on treatment not telecom & furniture debt?

 

[mizzou]

"disability"

 

[bshole]

Yeah however it still doesn't address why a Mother hopes her twins are autistic so she can get $1200 in benefits to pay bills.
a) what a horrible thing to want
b) shouldn't the $1200 be spent on treatment not telecom & furniture debt?

How about addressing why my ISP can now legally spy on me and sell my information to the highest bidder... a gift of corrupt politicians to the oligarchs this year. How about addressing the upcoming net neutrality demolition which promises to triple my internet cost.... another gift to billionaires. HOW ABOUT ADDRESSING THINGS THAT AFFECT ME! If there are poor people WE SHOULD HELP THEM. Bitching about pennies to the most poverty ridden Americans while remaining silent about the truckloads of money robbed from the working class and given to oligarchs.... something that seemed impossible a few decades ago.... strikes me as morally repugnant and in complete lockstep with the people who are destroying us all. Fuck that.

 

[Jhhnn]

Yeah however it still doesn't address why a Mother hopes her twins are autistic so she can get $1200 in benefits to pay bills.
a) what a horrible thing to want
b) shouldn't the $1200 be spent on treatment not telecom & furniture debt?

Not quite. She firmly believes that her twins are, in fact, autistic. Doesn't mean she's right.

What if it's just people trying to make the best of it, to utilize the resources they can get?

These are very poor places where it's hard to make any kind of a living. They've been in decline for decades. Big farmers hardly need any help at all these days. There never has been much industry to speak of.

If you think their lives are screwed up now, just imagine what it would be like for them & their neighbors if the exalted Job Creators could just forget about them.

 

[Zaap]

LOL! A conservative reads a topic like this and just thinks, "Well that sucks. People shouldn't abuse the system and there should be more controls for abuse. Then money could go to people actually IN NEED, not sucked up by child-abusing fraudsters."

A mush-minded liberal reads a topic like this and thinks: "Well that sucks, other peeps getting money for free??! Where's MY money for free!!? Damn rich people are whoring it all, that's where!! What we need is a way to fleece what they have and give it to ME! So I can sit home and play playstation all day too!! Capitalism sucks!!!!!!! The rich won't give ME shit!!!! There's no such thing as jobs anymore!!! This lady was just doing for her kids! So she had so fake some illnesses, so what?! Don't people understand... rich people suck!!! Capitalism sucks! TRUMP!!! ALT RIGHT!!! FOX NEWS!!!!! Dammit.. where's MY check??"

 

[Geekbabe]

I have an adult son with Autism, I'd give everything I have to make this condition go away for him.

My adult son receives $572 per month in SSDI, not enough to rent a room really & he lives with me. He didn't start drawing disability till age 18 under the provisions for children disabled before age 22.

He attended special schools all of his life, next May he will graduate from UMass & I pray a smart employer really needs a numbers man

He didn't speak till he was five, at age eight he was still head banging. Now he travels to school & community events, has some friends & has hope of getting a decent job.

Thank you fellow taxpayers

 

[Zaap]

^ Personally I think all the money possible should be available for situations like your son.

And not a thin dime more than possible wasted in the myriad of ways that able-bodied people manage to game the system... and worse- all the ways politicians fritter and waste the money on complete bullshit in the first place, and con everyone that the problem is not enough money from taxpayers.

The real solutions- though no easy- isn't always "just toss more money at politicians!" every time they squeak like they are anything close to being poor (or their governments actually lacking money) like the people they pretend to give two shits about.

 

[ch33zw1z]

Yeah however it still doesn't address why a Mother hopes her twins are autistic so she can get $1200 in benefits to pay bills.
a) what a horrible thing to want
b) shouldn't the $1200 be spent on treatment not telecom & furniture debt?

Re: a) ASD has expanded as our knowledge if the disorder has. People on the spectrum can be fully functional to not at all

Re: b) treatments for ASD vary greatly. From working with a counselor to overcome social issues, to full time assistance. $1200 would go fast.

I don't disagree that money management is a problem here. But let's be honest about it, it's an American trend for sure, not isolated to the OP, and not to people on government assistance.

 

[ch33zw1z]

^ Personally I think all the money possible should be available for situations like your son.

And not a thin dime more than possible wasted in the myriad of ways that able-bodied people manage to game the system... and worse- all the ways politicians fritter and waste the money on complete bullshit in the first place, and con everyone that the problem is not enough money from taxpayers.

The real solutions- though no easy- isn't always "just toss more money at politicians!" every time they squeak like they are anything close to being poor (or their governments actually lacking money) like the people they pretend to give two shits about.

Do you have any experience or knowledge of ASD?

 

[ch33zw1z]

I have an adult son with Autism, I'd give everything I have to make this condition go away for him.

My adult son receives $572 per month in SSDI, not enough to rent a room really & he lives with me. He didn't start drawing disability till age 18 under the provisions for children disabled before age 22.

He attended special schools all of his life, next May he will graduate from UMass & I pray a smart employer really needs a numbers man

He didn't speak till he was five, at age eight he was still head banging. Now he travels to school & community events, has some friends & has hope of getting a decent job.

Thank you fellow taxpayers

He'll do great. Plenty of positions for number oriented individuals.

Accounting comes to mind

 

[Fanatical Meat]

I have an adult son with Autism, I'd give everything I have to make this condition go away for him.

My adult son receives $572 per month in SSDI, not enough to rent a room really & he lives with me. He didn't start drawing disability till age 18 under the provisions for children disabled before age 22.

He attended special schools all of his life, next May he will graduate from UMass & I pray a smart employer really needs a numbers man

He didn't speak till he was five, at age eight he was still head banging. Now he travels to school & community events, has some friends & has hope of getting a decent job.

Thank you fellow taxpayers

Good work and that sounds like a proper way to use funds. Per @ch33zw1z I know for a fact ATT needs numbers guys however it will be out of State and TJX likes having numbers guys around, these are in state.
We should schedule a MA AT meet up some time
I guess my original points are how do I avoid telling someone what to do probably a better question for my dork pastor (yes that's what he calls himself) and at what point is supporting someone doing more harm than good?

 

[ch33zw1z]

I can answer your second question.

The point at which individuals are actively trying to not get off, it's a problem. Yet we can't ignore the children either. I agree there needs to be changes, I'm not knowledgeable enough to provide solutions.

 

[zinfamous]

So because she barely scrapes by due to bieng uneducated we should just accept it? What is this, a retard tax we have to pay to keep retards barely above sea level?

How about some bold initiatives like education, teaching people finances, and generally how to not be retarded?

I have a damn good upper-middle class dual income household, and I cut the cable cord 5 years ago and haven't looked back. Every 6-12 months I get on the phone and argue with Comcast to lower my Internet bill to a reasonable amount. I have a dirt cheap pre-paid cell-phone plan that is perfectly acceptable. Where the fuck do you see people like this making such sacrifices that even an upper-middle class family does?

Smart phone and tablet in every hand in the family, dedicated extended cable/satellite TV, and generally stupid with keeping costs low. But your answer (and every liberal's answer) is to simply find this acceptable behavior? Get bent. Also get realistic.

you didn't read my post, assmunch. get over yourself. LoL--you're the guy claiming that you know what some stranger is planning to do just from asking a question about becoming qualified: "Oh, obviously this guy will go break his leg tonight, because he is a disgusting poor!"

You are a disease.

 

[zinfamous]

All I see from the "conservative" side is the same old disease of knowing the price of everything and the value of nothing. And even then...not even the price of everything, just the immediate, short term price!

Even if you have a stock ticker where your soul should be, it very simply costs less to help people maintain normal lifestyles than it does to deal with them in the prison system later. Even if you're so completely inhuman, so utterly sociopathic, that you don't care about whatever kind of torture these people go through, the simple fact that prevention is cheaper than half-assed not-really-cure should make some inroad into your thinking.

If it still doesn't, then hiding behind "butbutbut MUH MUNNIEZ" is a smokescreen to cover something much darker: that you want these people to suffer, and you will happily spend more of "muh munniez" to see that happen.

yup. that is all conservatism is at this point. Ignorance wallowing in empty pride.

 

[Jhhnn]

LOL! A conservative reads a topic like this and just thinks, "Well that sucks. People shouldn't abuse the system and there should be more controls for abuse. Then money could go to people actually IN NEED, not sucked up by child-abusing fraudsters."

A mush-minded liberal reads a topic like this and thinks: "Well that sucks, other peeps getting money for free??! Where's MY money for free!!? Damn rich people are whoring it all, that's where!! What we need is a way to fleece what they have and give it to ME! So I can sit home and play playstation all day too!! Capitalism sucks!!!!!!! The rich won't give ME shit!!!! There's no such thing as jobs anymore!!! This lady was just doing for her kids! So she had so fake some illnesses, so what?! Don't people understand... rich people suck!!! Capitalism sucks! TRUMP!!! ALT RIGHT!!! FOX NEWS!!!!! Dammit.. where's MY check??"

Posting when drunk, huh?

 

[feralkid]

Yeah however it still doesn't address why a Mother hopes her twins are autistic so she can get $1200 in benefits to pay bills.
?

Maybe because the kids already had multiple mental health diagnoses; she suspected autism as well, but without a firm diagnosis she couldn't get the additional funds to properly care for them?

Why do you keep assuming she WANTED her kids to have autism? She simply wanted an official diagnosis for what she suspected they already had.

You seem to be going out of your way to try to demonize the mother.

That helps no one.

 

[Jhhnn]

I can answer your second question.

The point at which individuals are actively trying to not get off, it's a problem. Yet we can't ignore the children either. I agree there needs to be changes, I'm not knowledgeable enough to provide solutions.

Read up-

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pemiscot_County,_Missouri#Demographics

Get off public assistance & do what, exactly? It's not like the Jerb Creators have anything for them.

 

[ch33zw1z]

Read up-

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pemiscot_County,_Missouri#Demographics

Get off public assistance & do what, exactly? It's not like the Jerb Creators have anything for them.

Well, I can't argue with one states problem. I just answered the question they way my gut says. I understand it's not a cut and dry issue. And I said somewhere else, probably in this thread, there's a huge gap from full time assistance to none at all. It's likely not feasible for many on assistance.