Originally posted by: Garth
Originally posted by: Citrix
I think its highly unlikely that cavemen would have a clue that a toe bone from a t-rex was a toe bone from a t-rex and would be able to draw a pretty damn good picture of one.
Strawman. Who said all they had to go on was a toe bone? Fossils are often found preserved in "assembled" form. Furthermore, it is hardly more reasonable to believe that all of geology, paleontology, biology, physics, and archaeology is completely wrong than it is to believe that ancient man was capable of discovering fossils and constructing images of them. Why don't we ever find human remains in the same strata as dinos? Why do the dates match up so precisely over, and over, and over again?
For that matter, who is to say that ancient man did not dream of dinosaurs and construct the images from his dreams? That an individual doodles an image of something else does not mean that he existed contemporarily with the subject of his art. That is the bottom line.
THe first time dino bones were seriously looked at by science was in the early 1800's
We're not talking about bones being "seriously looked at by science" so that is another strawman. (Me? Surprised? Nope!) We're talking about the simple inspriation of caveman drawings. There could be any number of methods for ancient man to form images in his mind of what dinosaurs looked like, and none of then need to include man's contemporaneous existence with them.
Of course, indiviudals like yourself are often to lazy to conceive those reasons, and instead would rather toss out decades of confirmed research and evidence in order to sate their incredulity at the simple proposition of ancient men coming to know of the approximate appearance of dinosaurs any other way than by directly observing them in the flesh.
Oh well, as the saying goes: you can lead a creationist to reason, but you can't make him think...
-Garth
"
If dinosaurs and humans once lived as contemporaries on the Earth, why is it that human fossils have not been found alongside, near, or in the same strata as dinosaur fossils? If they lived together and died together, shouldn?t there be evidence from the fossil record of their coexistence?
Admittedly, at times questions like these appear somewhat puzzling. We know from the biblical record that dinosaurs and humans coexisted. Furthermore, various ancient paintings, figurines, rock carvings, and historical references confirm they were contemporaries upon the Earth. Why, then, at first glance, does the fossil record seem not to corroborate this information?
First, fossils are rare. Not every living plant, animal, or human fossilizes after death. In fact, it is extremely rare for things once living to fossilize. Dead animals in a field or on the side of the road do not fossilize. In order for something to become fossilized, it must be buried quickly in just the right place. Consider all the bison that were slaughtered and left to rot on the prairies of the Old West. In those days, you could buy a seat on a train, pull up to a herd of bison, and keep shooting out of the window until you were either out of bullets or your barrel overheated. When everyone had enough, the train would move on, leaving the dead and dying animals behind. By 1885, millions of bison had been reduced to just 500 (Jones, n.d.). What happened to all of their remains? We do not see them on the prairies today. Why? Because their bones and flesh were scavenged by birds, insects, worms, and other animals. The smallest pieces were dissolved by bacteria, fungi, and enzymatic degradation until the buffalo remains were gone. Even oxygen plays a part in breaking down the chemicals that make up the living body.
Evolutionary scientist James Powell described another situation where a large population of animals died. He wrote:
n the winter after the great Yellowstone fires of 1988, thousands of elk perished from extreme cold coupled with lack of food. Late the following spring, their carcasses were strewn everywhere. Yet only a few years later, bones from the great elk kill are scarce. The odds that a single one will be preserved so that it can be found 65 million years from now approach zero. At best we can expect to find fossil evidence of only a tiny fraction of the animals that once lived. The earth?s normal processes destroy or hide most of the clues (1998, p. xv).
Normally, as Powell indicated, living things do not fossilize. Under normal conditions, living things decay and rot. It is atypical for plants and animals to fossilize, because they must avoid even the smallest of scavengers, bacteria, fungi, etc. For bones to fossilize, they must be buried?the deeper and sooner the better. Fine sediments, like mud and silt, are good because they block out oxygen. In this ?protected? environment, bones and teeth may last long enough to mineralize. But, normally carcasses do not find themselves in such environments.
Second, although dinosaur graveyards have been discovered in various places throughout the world (e.g., Tanzania, Africa; Jenson, Utah) where thousands of dinosaur bones are jumbled together (obviously due to some sort of catastrophe?e.g., a flood), most people are unaware of the fact that, ?in spite of the intense popular and scientific interest in the dinosaurs and the well-publicized efforts of generations of dinosaur hunters, only about 2,100 articulated dinosaur bones (two or more aligned in the same position as in life) have ever been found? (Powell, 1998, p. xv; see also Dodson, 1990, 87:7608; Lewin, 1990). Furthermore, in an article that appeared in the October 1990 issue of the Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences, Peter Dodson of the University of Pennsylvania reported that almost half (45.3%) of all dinosaur genera are based on a single specimen, and 74% are represented by five specimens or less (p. 7608). Even some of the most famous dinosaurs are based on a fraction of what they were originally. For example, the 120-foot-long Argentinosaurus replica housed in the Fernbank Museum of Natural History is based on only 10 percent of its remains (a dozen backbone vertebrae, a few limb bones and part of the hips) [Meyer, 2002]. Truthfully, although dinosaurs have captured the attention of scientists for more than 150 years, their fossilized remains are not as prevalent as many would think.
Third, humans make up an infinitesimal part of the fossil record. Due to the number of drawings of our alleged human ancestors that appear in the news on a regular basis, one might get the feeling that ?hominoid? and/or human fossils were ubiquitous. But, such is not the case. More than two decades ago, in an article that appeared in New Scientist, John Reader wrote: ?The entire hominid collection known today would barely cover a billiard table (1981, 89:802). One year later, Lyall Watson similarly stated: ?The fossils that decorate our family tree are so scarce that there are still more scientists than specimens. The remarkable fact is that all the physical evidence we have for human evolution can still be placed, with room to spare, inside a single coffin (1982, 90:44, emp. added). In a conversation in 1996 with James Powell, president and director of the Los Angeles County Museum of Natural History, the renowned evolutionary paleoanthropologist Meave Leakey gave some insight into her frustrations in search for hominid or human fossils as she described her ?nearly futile hunt for human bone in a new field area as four years of hard work producing only three nondescript scraps? (Powell, 1998, p. xv, emp. added). Most recently, David Begun concluded an article in Science magazine titled ?The Earliest Hominins?Is Less More?,? by saying: ?[T]he level of uncertainty in the available direct evidence at this time renders irreconcilable differences of opinion inevitable. The solution is in the mantra of all paleontologists: We need more fossils!? (2004, 303:1479-1480, emp. added). Although hominid and human fossils are the most sought-after fossils in the world, scientists readily admit that few human fossils have been found.
As you can see, the question ?Why don?t we find dinosaur and human fossils together?? is extremely misleading. The truth is, fossils are rare. And, of those things that do fossilize, it appears that less than 1% are vertebrates (fish, amphibians, reptiles, birds, or mammals ) [see Snelling, 1991, p. 30]. Furthermore, human fossils make up a microscopic part of the fossil record. Searching for one is like trying to find the one proverbial needle in a giant haystack. The real question then, is not, ?Why don?t we find dinosaur and human fossils together?,? but, ?Where are all of the human fossils??
Simply because human fossils apparently have not been found with dinosaur fossils does not make the case for the coexistence of dinosaurs and humans any less credible. Think about it. Where are the human fossils that have been found with the recently extinct Pyrenean Ibex? Can we prove that Dodo birds and humans once lived together by observing their fossilized remains together in a particular layer of rock? We know that they once coexisted, but can a person point to the fossil record for such information? The chance of finding human fossils is rare. The chance of finding exactly the combination of fossils for which one is searching (in this case, dinosaurs and humans) is even less likely.
Fourth, considering that sedimentary rocks (the sort of rocks where fossils are most likely to be found) cover two-thirds of the continents and are over a mile thick on average, even if there are dinosaur and human remains fossilized in the same rock, the chance of them being exposed, discovered, recognized, and reported together is very improbable. They might be exposed somewhere in the world today (like in a mine, road cutting, or a cliff), but unless they are discovered before the wind, Sun, and rain reduce them to dust, such exposure is useless to scientists.
Furthermore, it may very well be that these bones have been discovered together in times past, but for at least two reasons they were never reported. First, someone who might have found these bones in a quarry, may react by saying, ?Hey look guys, it?s a bunch of old bones. But quick, pass me another stick of dynamite so we can get the next ton of coal out of here.? The proof that man and dinosaurs were fossilized together may have gone up in smoke years ago. Second, it may be possible that human bones have been found by scientists alongside dinosaur fossils, yet simply have not been reported widely. By saying this, we do not mean to accuse evolutionary researchers of dishonesty. We simply believe they are afflicted with presuppositions that have affected their judgment. It is evolutionary geologists and paleontologists who are doing most of the research in this area. If they did happen upon human fossils and dinosaur fossils in the same strata, is it not possible that they would think to themselves, ?Oh, these human fossils are an anomaly; they cannot have actually existed in this time period because evolution is true?? If evolutionists can ?confuse? a dolphin?s rib for a human collarbone (Anderson, 1983, p. 199), or an extinct pig?s tooth for a human tooth (e.g., Nebraska Man; see Harrub and Thompson, 2004, pp. 88-89), then similar mistakes could easily be made concerning human and dinosaur fossils. If one ever has been found with another, scientists could have misinterpreted the ?anomaly.? Because (from an evolutionary perspective) human fossils ?shouldn?t be where they are,? they may very well not get reported as being where they are!
There are other matters to consider as well. We do find a number of evidences in the fossil record that the Earth is not nearly as old as evolutionists say it is, and that man has been on the Earth during the so-called ?geologic times? when he should not have been present (if evolution is true). For example, in 1936 a metal hammer with a wooden handle was dug out of Cretaceous limestone (dated by evolutionists at 135 million years old?the same strata in which dinosaur bones supposedly should be found) in the area near London, Texas. In fact, we have a beautiful, professional produced replica of it here in offices. The hammer?s broken handle is 6¾ inches long, and the hammer itself is made of very strong metal. When the surface oxidation was removed, the metal was still shiny. [Details of this remarkable discovery (including photographs) may be found in Helfinstine and Roth (1994, pp. 83,91-92), and the February 1984 issue of Creation Ex Nihilo magazine (see ?Ordovician Hammer Report,? 2[3]:16-17).]
Numerous other human artifacts and footprints have been found in coal veins around the world?coal veins that allegedly were formed 250 million years (in the Carboniferous period of the geologic timescale) before men ?evolved.? For example, several years ago evolutionist Albert G. Ingalls (the state geologist of Kentucky) was working in the coal veins in Kentucky and nearby states. Dr. Ingalls stumbled across ?human-like footprints? embedded in the coal veins of those states. Coal, of course, is supposed to have been laid down during the so-called Carboniferous period of the geologic timescale, which allegedly is separated from mankind by 240 to 250 million years, according to the standard geologic timetable. How, then, could a human footprint possibly occur in coal? And Dr. Ingalls did not discover these footprints just in Kentucky. He also discovered them in Missouri, Illinois, Pennsylvania, Virginia, West Virginia, and even westward toward the Rocky Mountains (Ingalls, 1940, 162:14; see also, Wilder-Smith, 1970, p. 300). So even though we don?t find a lot of human fossils, we do find quite a few human artifacts in the same strata of rock where scientists find dinosaur fossils. Yet, the evolutionary scientists always dismiss such evidence. [In attempting to explain away how two trilobites were found fossilized inside of a human sandal print in Antelope Springs, Utah in 1968, evolutionists assert that the print is merely a spall (cracking or chipping) pattern in the rock (see Conrad, 1981, 4:30-33).]
It may be that dinosaur and human fossils are never found together. But, whether they are or not, the evidence for the coexistence of humans and dinosaurs at one time in the past is undeniable to the unbiased truth seeker. Human footprints in coal veins allegedly 250 million years old, human artifacts buried in limestone dated at 135 million years old, clay figurines of dinosaurs from an ancient civilization in Acamboro, Mexico, ancient dinosaur petroglyphs (see Harrub and Thompson, 2003), and much, much more, all point to a conclusion that evolutionists will not accept?dinosaurs and humans once walked this Earth together.
REFERENCES
Anderson, I. (1983), ?Humanoid Collarbone Exposed as Dolphin?s Rib,? New Scientist, April 28.
Begun, David (2004), ?The Earliest Hominins?Is Less More?? Science, 3003:1478-1480, March 5.
Conrad, Ernest C. (1981), ?Tripping Over a Trilobite: A Study of the Meister Tracks,? Creation/Evolution, 4:30-33.
Dodson, Peter (1990), ?Counting Dinosaurs: How Many Kinds Were There?? Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences, 87:7608-7612, October.
Harrub, Brad and Bert Thompson (2003), ?Walking Amidst the Dinosaurs,? Reason and Revelation, [On-line], URL:
http://www.apologeticspress.org/articles/15.
Harrub, Brad and Bert Thompson (2004), The Truth About Human Origins (Montgomery, AL: Apologetics Press).
Helfinstine, Robert F. and Jerry D. Roth (1994), Texas Tracks and Artifacts (Anoka, MN: Privately published by authors).
Ingalls, Albert G. (1940), ?The Carboniferous Mystery,? Scientific American, 162:14, January.
Jones, Alvin T. (no date), ?The American Bison,? [On-line], URL:
http://www.texasbison.org/bisonstory.html.
Lewin, Roger (1990), ?Science: Dinosaur Count Reveals Surprisingly Few Species,? New Scientist Archive, 128[1745], December, [On-line], URL:
http://archive.newscientist.com/secure/...cle/article.jsp?rp=1&id=mg12817452.700.
Meyer, Pedro (2002), ?Does the Original Matter?? WashingtonPost.com, [On-line], URL:
http://media.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/photo/essays/zonezero/jan_02.htm.
?Ordovician Hammer Report? (1984), Creation Ex Nihilo, 2[3]:16-17, February.
Powell, James Lawrence (1998), Night Comes to the Cretaceous (New York: Harcourt Brace & Company).
Reader, John (1981), ?Whatever Happened to Zinjanthropus?,? New Scientist, 89:802, March 26.
Snelling, Andrew (1991), ?Where are All the Human Fossils?? Creation Ex Nihilo, 14[1]:28-33, December 1991-February 1992.
Watson, Lyall (1982), ?The Water People,? Science Digest, 90[5]:44, May.
Wilder-Smith, A.E. (1970), Man?s Origin, Man?s Destiny (Wheaton, IL: Harold Shaw Publishers)."
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http://www.apologeticspress.org/articles/1973
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