I am a Christian

[athithi]

I don't wish to make this a debate on evolution either. But since you have categorically stated that I have blind faith in the theory of evolution, I feel the need to defend myself. I believe evolution offers the most plausible explanation for life on earth in its current form. That is vastly different from saying I believe evolution is the be all and end all of life on earth.

I find it amusing when religious-minded people want to compare faith and science as equals - they are not equals. Their nature is different and their purpose couldn't possibly be any more different. Science does not try to explain why we are here (ergo, my belief that religion is important and beautiful). Science is the process of observing, reporting and, where feasible, verifying through practical experimentation. Faith is everything but. What science can accomplish is not even remotely in the vicinity of that which faith influences. What faith can touch is besides science. The only commonality they have is in their ability to convert non-believers. Even there, the significant difference is that science does not ask the non-believer to change in any way during the process of observation, whereas faith asks that the non-believer essentially change who they are before they can "see".

My disbelief in evolution most certainly can be rationally explained.

No, it cannot. You do not have a disbelief of evolution. You have a belief in the non-existence of evolution because it has not touched your soul the way religion has. You have neither seen, nor heard, nor demonstrated any evidence that evolution is false. The claim that evolution lacks sufficient evidence is disingenuous unless you are willing to apply the same claim to faith, in which case, naturally there is far less evidence that God exists and you would have to lose your faith (not something I wish for, but am merely stating to identify the incongruity of your statements).

How can you disprove tongues when you have no way of determining which experiences with tongues are legitimate and which are not? You can disprove tongues a thousand times and never be sure you were testing a true experience instead of an emotional or induced one (something I've brought up several times).

Most religious experiences refuse to even submit themselves to observation by science, whereas all true believers feel entitled to sit in judgement of the validity of science. I come from a land where there are many people who claim to speak in tongues or be possessed by spirits that will reveal truths. They have repeatedly been exposed as scam artists and invariably are unable to sustain or project these powers in an open and neutrally observable environment. In-var-iab-ly. I believe that your speaking in tongues is just as supernatural as with these people, in that when it tries to usurp the position of science, it will inevitably self-destruct. The beauty of a personal religious experience can only be tainted when it tries to co-opt science. Don't knock evolution. It has far greater validity than instances of aberrant behaviour, even if such behaviour is one's own.

 

[Luthien]

Originally posted by: RichardE

Originally posted by: Luthien

Originally posted by: RichardE

Originally posted by: Luthien
You know why christians "hate" atheists and any other belief so much? Because they threaten christianity's very nature. While in the midst of belief a christian cannot reconcile the self inflicted threat of hell and loss of a magical heaven. Failure to believe in a believers mind means they must give up heaven and suffer hell. The enduring threats they got suckered into believing has traped them. It will continue to trap them until they stop believing in heaven and hell but that means they are going to hell... I think you get the irony of this mind trap that religions love to use because it is so powerful; on top of that they will lose the social bonds that were created within the church and amongst fellow believers so moving on is a very scary thing. It is all no different than any cult. Christianity is a macrocosmic cult just like every other major world religion. The very threat that converted them traps them.

You don't really have any idea of the Christian religion I see at all. Christians don't "hate" athiests, or muslims, or hindu's ect. Yes, small extremists groups do, as is observed in every religion but as a religion overall they do not. Just as all Muslims do not "hate' all Jews and Christians. Some Christians come to the religion because of Fire and Brimstone preaching, but I have never seen one who has stay, as that is not enough reason to stay in a faith. The fear of hell is not enough to keep someone a devout Christian.

Dissuade all you want replace "hate" with dislike for the rest if you want but the facts is the facts. Enjoy your trap, it could take you the rest of your life to unlock it or never.

The extremists hate/dislike/frown upon other religions for there religion. Uninformed people hate/dislike/frown upon entire groups of religions for the actions of a few. Typical people will sit here and go "they have there views, and I have mine". The fact that you think all people of religion are uninformed extremists shows the point I was making, that you have no clue really. I have Muslime and Jewish friends, my favorite professor is an Arab Muslim and we can sit and debate the middle east politics for hours on end and we do not hate each other. Yet, according to your observations we should. I am sure many posters here have relationships with people who practice other religions, even religions with extremists that want to destroy there own, and they do not hate those people or that religion.

Religious extremism in any religion is something to be hated/not tolerated. Thankfully extremism plays a very very very small role in the bigger picture of things, a picture many people ignore to focus on the off color pixel in the corner.

All your doing is deflecting. I didn't say ALL christians but you infer it because it seems it is your only arguement. Others can infer it means some christians. With the absence of some or all it is left up the the reader to interpret it. The end.

 

[dartworth]

Jesus was way cool
Everybody liked Jesus
Everybody wanted to hang out with him
Anything he wanted to do, he did
He turned water into wine
And if he wanted to
He could have turned wheat into marijuana
Or sugar into cocaine
Or vitamin pills into amphetamines

He walked on the water
And swam on the land
He would tell these stories
And people would listen
He was really cool

If you were blind or lame
You just went to Jesus
And he would put his hands on you
And you would be healed
That's so cool

He could've played guitar better than Hendrix
He could've told the future
He could've baked the most delicious cake in the world
He could've scored more goals than Wayne Gretzky
He could've danced better than Barishnikov
Jesus could have been funnier than any comedian you can think of
Jesus was way cool

He told people to eat his body and drink his blood
That's so cool
Jesus was so cool
But then some people got jealous of how cool he was
So they killed him
But then he rose from the dead
He rose from the dead, danced around
Then went up to heaven
I mean, that's so cool
Jesus was way cool

No wonder there are so many Christians

 

[mercanucaribe]

Originally posted by: Fraggable

Originally posted by: mercanucaribe

Originally posted by: busmaster11

Originally posted by: mercanucaribe

Originally posted by: HotChic

Originally posted by: Luthien

Originally posted by: freedomsbeat212
Funny story - my sister, mom, and myself had a long conversation about Jesus and what he means. My mom is VERY religious, very educated in the bible, and her father and grandfather were both ministers. My sister was trying to go for the middle ground "Jesus is about love, about accepting your neighbors regardless of their faith and the bible is poetry, it shouldn't be taken literally." My mom stated that she's tired of liberals who don't really agree with the bible bending the words. God is VENGEFUL, the bible clearly states that there is only ONE PATH to salvation (which is accepting Jesus), Jesus DEMANDS that you give up ALL of your material wealth to go to heaven, the Bible clearly states that women are inferior, homosexuals are sinners, and that there is no middle ground. It also states taht you should have a child like faith - do not question, or you may face damnation.

My mom's point is that the bible is pretty blunt. You can agree or disagree, but don't try to mix hippy new age thoughts with the bible... That's post-modernism and the bible surely is not a post-modern text.

Excellent post!

Ah, at last we agree on something! Handshake and a happy end to the thread?

Freedomsbeat, why do CHRISTIANS pick and choose what to follow from the Bible, while regarding it as infallible?

The ones that compromise try to reconcile it with the world, and you question their integrity. The ones that don't, you call intolerant fundies.

Either way the point remains that there can be no reasoning with those whom He hasn't yet called... But the message is still the same. We all need to repent.

I'm talking about fundamentalist Christians who do not stone adulturers, allow disabled people in their Churches, and eat shellfish, all of which are explicitly forbidden in the Bible.

Maybe under the Law, in the OT. When Jesus died on the cross for our sins he eradicated the Law and we are now saved by faith.

So Jesus eradicated the Old Testament's law against homosexuality just as he did for shellfish? I don't see anything mentioned about it in the New Testament.

 

[RichardE]

Originally posted by: ThePresence

Originally posted by: RichardEAlso, each individual will have to deal with God is his own way. I cannot say that the individual in the jungle of Asia who has never heard of Jesus is going to hell. I do know that if you know about Jesus and reject his teachings that it has been said you will be thrown into hell. Even this is still a debate among Christian circles. (I might even have some of it wrong sorry.)

Didn't Jesus say that no one comes to the Father but by me? If so, why would that not exclude those who never heard of him?

John 14:1-7

1 ?Let not your hearts be troubled. Believe in God; believe also in me. 2 In my Father?s house are many rooms. If it were not so, would I have told you that I go to prepare a place for you? 3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and will take you to myself, that where I am you may be also. 4 And you know the way to where I am going.? 5 Thomas said to him, ?Lord, we do not know where you are going. How can we know the way?? 6 Jesus said to him, ?I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. 7 If you had known me, you would have known my Father also. From now on you do know him and have seen him.?

Yes, it is through Jesus and only Jesus. Again, I know what the scripture itself says. Again, I will say that each individual will have to deal with god alone when it times come for judgment. As children will not go to hell because of there ignorance of Jesus and there innocence I cannot say what will happen to someone who has never been shown or given the opportunity to accept Christ.

 

[RichardE]

Originally posted by: Luthien

Originally posted by: RichardE

Originally posted by: Luthien

Originally posted by: RichardE

Originally posted by: Luthien
You know why christians "hate" atheists and any other belief so much? Because they threaten christianity's very nature. While in the midst of belief a christian cannot reconcile the self inflicted threat of hell and loss of a magical heaven. Failure to believe in a believers mind means they must give up heaven and suffer hell. The enduring threats they got suckered into believing has traped them. It will continue to trap them until they stop believing in heaven and hell but that means they are going to hell... I think you get the irony of this mind trap that religions love to use because it is so powerful; on top of that they will lose the social bonds that were created within the church and amongst fellow believers so moving on is a very scary thing. It is all no different than any cult. Christianity is a macrocosmic cult just like every other major world religion. The very threat that converted them traps them.

You don't really have any idea of the Christian religion I see at all. Christians don't "hate" athiests, or muslims, or hindu's ect. Yes, small extremists groups do, as is observed in every religion but as a religion overall they do not. Just as all Muslims do not "hate' all Jews and Christians. Some Christians come to the religion because of Fire and Brimstone preaching, but I have never seen one who has stay, as that is not enough reason to stay in a faith. The fear of hell is not enough to keep someone a devout Christian.

Dissuade all you want replace "hate" with dislike for the rest if you want but the facts is the facts. Enjoy your trap, it could take you the rest of your life to unlock it or never.

The extremists hate/dislike/frown upon other religions for there religion. Uninformed people hate/dislike/frown upon entire groups of religions for the actions of a few. Typical people will sit here and go "they have there views, and I have mine". The fact that you think all people of religion are uninformed extremists shows the point I was making, that you have no clue really. I have Muslime and Jewish friends, my favorite professor is an Arab Muslim and we can sit and debate the middle east politics for hours on end and we do not hate each other. Yet, according to your observations we should. I am sure many posters here have relationships with people who practice other religions, even religions with extremists that want to destroy there own, and they do not hate those people or that religion.

Religious extremism in any religion is something to be hated/not tolerated. Thankfully extremism plays a very very very small role in the bigger picture of things, a picture many people ignore to focus on the off color pixel in the corner.

All your doing is deflecting. I didn't say ALL christians but you infer it because it seems it is your only arguement. Others can infer it means some christians. With the absence of some or all it is left up the the reader to interpret it. The end.

You know why christians "hate" atheists and any other belief so much? Because they threaten christianity's very nature

You assumed the entire religion, if you are backtracking now I understand why.

While in the midst of belief a christian cannot reconcile the self inflicted threat of hell and loss of a magical heaven. Failure to believe in a believers mind means they must give up heaven and suffer hell. The enduring threats they got suckered into believing has traped them.

Again, all Christians you are referring to as in the entire Christian religion.

You can backtrack all you want on your statements, the result is the same that you are wrong. If you wish to discuss extremist (which it seems you do) we can. As a religion as a whole you are ignorant of it though in your assumptions that Christians as a fatih hate/dislike/look down upon others.

 

[RichardE]

Originally posted by: mercanucaribe

Originally posted by: Fraggable

Originally posted by: mercanucaribe

Originally posted by: busmaster11

Originally posted by: mercanucaribe

Originally posted by: HotChic

Originally posted by: Luthien

Originally posted by: freedomsbeat212
Funny story - my sister, mom, and myself had a long conversation about Jesus and what he means. My mom is VERY religious, very educated in the bible, and her father and grandfather were both ministers. My sister was trying to go for the middle ground "Jesus is about love, about accepting your neighbors regardless of their faith and the bible is poetry, it shouldn't be taken literally." My mom stated that she's tired of liberals who don't really agree with the bible bending the words. God is VENGEFUL, the bible clearly states that there is only ONE PATH to salvation (which is accepting Jesus), Jesus DEMANDS that you give up ALL of your material wealth to go to heaven, the Bible clearly states that women are inferior, homosexuals are sinners, and that there is no middle ground. It also states taht you should have a child like faith - do not question, or you may face damnation.

My mom's point is that the bible is pretty blunt. You can agree or disagree, but don't try to mix hippy new age thoughts with the bible... That's post-modernism and the bible surely is not a post-modern text.

Excellent post!

Ah, at last we agree on something! Handshake and a happy end to the thread?

Freedomsbeat, why do CHRISTIANS pick and choose what to follow from the Bible, while regarding it as infallible?

The ones that compromise try to reconcile it with the world, and you question their integrity. The ones that don't, you call intolerant fundies.

Either way the point remains that there can be no reasoning with those whom He hasn't yet called... But the message is still the same. We all need to repent.

I'm talking about fundamentalist Christians who do not stone adulturers, allow disabled people in their Churches, and eat shellfish, all of which are explicitly forbidden in the Bible.

Maybe under the Law, in the OT. When Jesus died on the cross for our sins he eradicated the Law and we are now saved by faith.

So Jesus eradicated the Old Testament's law against homosexuality just as he did for shellfish? I don't see anything mentioned about it in the New Testament.

Romans 10:4

For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.

Galatians 23-25
23 But before faith came, we were kept under guard by the law, kept for the faith which would afterward be revealed. 24 Therefore the law was our tutor to bring us to Christ, that we might be justified by faith. 25 But after faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor.

Ephesians 2:15
15 having abolished in His flesh the enmity, that is, the law of commandments contained in ordinances, so as to create in Himself one new man from the two, thus making peace,

I won't say I completely understand the topic, or what it all entails. I will tell you that a majority of the old testament is not practiced today (sacrificing animals for an example to abolish sins, since now we can pray to do that) since Jesus.

 

[ThePresence]

Originally posted by: RichardE

Originally posted by: ThePresence

Originally posted by: RichardEAlso, each individual will have to deal with God is his own way. I cannot say that the individual in the jungle of Asia who has never heard of Jesus is going to hell. I do know that if you know about Jesus and reject his teachings that it has been said you will be thrown into hell. Even this is still a debate among Christian circles. (I might even have some of it wrong sorry.)

Didn't Jesus say that no one comes to the Father but by me? If so, why would that not exclude those who never heard of him?

John 14:1-7

1 ?Let not your hearts be troubled. Believe in God; believe also in me. 2 In my Father?s house are many rooms. If it were not so, would I have told you that I go to prepare a place for you? 3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and will take you to myself, that where I am you may be also. 4 And you know the way to where I am going.? 5 Thomas said to him, ?Lord, we do not know where you are going. How can we know the way?? 6 Jesus said to him, ?I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. 7 If you had known me, you would have known my Father also. From now on you do know him and have seen him.?

Yes, it is through Jesus and only Jesus. Again, I know what the scripture itself says. Again, I will say that each individual will have to deal with god alone when it times come for judgment. As children will not go to hell because of there ignorance of Jesus and there innocence I cannot say what will happen to someone who has never been shown or given the opportunity to accept Christ.

It seems to me, and I say this with respect, that you are unwilling to accept the obvious conclusion from the verse because it doesn't make sense to you morally.

 

[Luthien]

Originally posted by: athithi
I don't wish to make this a debate on evolution either. But since you have categorically stated that I have blind faith in the theory of evolution, I feel the need to defend myself. I believe evolution offers the most plausible explanation for life on earth in its current form. That is vastly different from saying I believe evolution is the be all and end all of life on earth.

I find it amusing when religious-minded people want to compare faith and science as equals - they are not equals. Their nature is different and their purpose couldn't possibly be any more different. Science does not try to explain why we are here (ergo, my belief that religion is important and beautiful). Science is the process of observing, reporting and, where feasible, verifying through practical experimentation. Faith is everything but. What science can accomplish is not even remotely in the vicinity of that which faith influences. What faith can touch is besides science. The only commonality they have is in their ability to convert non-believers. Even there, the significant difference is that science does not ask the non-believer to change in any way during the process of observation, whereas faith asks that the non-believer essentially change who they are before they can "see".

My disbelief in evolution most certainly can be rationally explained.

No, it cannot. You do not have a disbelief of evolution. You have a belief in the non-existence of evolution because it has not touched your soul the way religion has. You have neither seen, nor heard, nor demonstrated any evidence that evolution is false. The claim that evolution lacks sufficient evidence is disingenuous unless you are willing to apply the same claim to faith, in which case, naturally there is far less evidence that God exists and you would have to lose your faith (not something I wish for, but am merely stating to identify the incongruity of your statements).

How can you disprove tongues when you have no way of determining which experiences with tongues are legitimate and which are not? You can disprove tongues a thousand times and never be sure you were testing a true experience instead of an emotional or induced one (something I've brought up several times).

Most religious experiences refuse to even submit themselves to observation by science, whereas all true believers feel entitled to sit in judgement of the validity of science. I come from a land where there are many people who claim to speak in tongues or be possessed by spirits that will reveal truths. They have repeatedly been exposed as scam artists and invariably are unable to sustain or project these powers in an open and neutrally observable environment. In-var-iab-ly. I believe that your speaking in tongues is just as supernatural as with these people, in that when it tries to usurp the position of science, it will inevitably self-destruct. The beauty of a personal religious experience can only be tainted when it tries to co-opt science. Don't knock evolution. It has far greater validity than instances of aberrant behaviour, even if such behaviour is one's own.

Awesome post!

 

[RichardE]

Originally posted by: ThePresence

Originally posted by: RichardE

Originally posted by: ThePresence

Originally posted by: RichardEAlso, each individual will have to deal with God is his own way. I cannot say that the individual in the jungle of Asia who has never heard of Jesus is going to hell. I do know that if you know about Jesus and reject his teachings that it has been said you will be thrown into hell. Even this is still a debate among Christian circles. (I might even have some of it wrong sorry.)

Didn't Jesus say that no one comes to the Father but by me? If so, why would that not exclude those who never heard of him?

John 14:1-7

1 ?Let not your hearts be troubled. Believe in God; believe also in me. 2 In my Father?s house are many rooms. If it were not so, would I have told you that I go to prepare a place for you? 3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and will take you to myself, that where I am you may be also. 4 And you know the way to where I am going.? 5 Thomas said to him, ?Lord, we do not know where you are going. How can we know the way?? 6 Jesus said to him, ?I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. 7 If you had known me, you would have known my Father also. From now on you do know him and have seen him.?

Yes, it is through Jesus and only Jesus. Again, I know what the scripture itself says. Again, I will say that each individual will have to deal with god alone when it times come for judgment. As children will not go to hell because of there ignorance of Jesus and there innocence I cannot say what will happen to someone who has never been shown or given the opportunity to accept Christ.

It seems to me, and I say this with respect, that you are unwilling to accept the obvious conclusion from the verse because it doesn't make sense to you morally.

That is a good possibility. I am also a theistic evolutionist which goes against Genesis as well. If the verse is literal, than I will be saddened in regards to it. If it is literal in the assumption that you have known/had the chance to turn to Jesus and did not, I will still be saddened and understand it (this is what I believe). I truly believe that God does not punish the innocent or ignorant (as he has said he does not in regards to children) than I will trust in his judgment and go from there.

Scriptures I think are meant as guides, as it is too easy to prove whatever you want to do using different verses from any scripture, be it Christian, Jewish, Muslim scriptures. Where it is not clear cut (As say the 10 commandments) you go into interpreting the scripture. God has said that the path to heaven is narrow and hard to find, and not many will enter though, so I have no illusions that the majority of man kind will be saved.

 

[busmaster11]

Originally posted by: ThePresence

Originally posted by: RichardEAlso, each individual will have to deal with God is his own way. I cannot say that the individual in the jungle of Asia who has never heard of Jesus is going to hell. I do know that if you know about Jesus and reject his teachings that it has been said you will be thrown into hell. Even this is still a debate among Christian circles. (I might even have some of it wrong sorry.)

Didn't Jesus say that no one comes to the Father but by me? If so, why would that not exclude those who never heard of him?

A valid question, but one that is only asked in a time when His sovereignty is questioned. You may think it a copout to say that since He is God and we are not, we are not privy to that information.

Perhaps its only wishful thinking that we say we don't know but hope that those who don't know Him might come to know Him and be saved... perhaps that was never in the plans.

By default, all of us deserve hell. When most of us with hardened, arrogant hearts realize the sheer weight of that, we will understand the proper perspective much better, and stop trying to defend ourselves.

 

[Luthien]

Originally posted by: RichardE

Originally posted by: Luthien

Originally posted by: RichardE

Originally posted by: Luthien

Originally posted by: RichardE

Originally posted by: Luthien
You know why christians "hate" atheists and any other belief so much? Because they threaten christianity's very nature. While in the midst of belief a christian cannot reconcile the self inflicted threat of hell and loss of a magical heaven. Failure to believe in a believers mind means they must give up heaven and suffer hell. The enduring threats they got suckered into believing has traped them. It will continue to trap them until they stop believing in heaven and hell but that means they are going to hell... I think you get the irony of this mind trap that religions love to use because it is so powerful; on top of that they will lose the social bonds that were created within the church and amongst fellow believers so moving on is a very scary thing. It is all no different than any cult. Christianity is a macrocosmic cult just like every other major world religion. The very threat that converted them traps them.

You don't really have any idea of the Christian religion I see at all. Christians don't "hate" athiests, or muslims, or hindu's ect. Yes, small extremists groups do, as is observed in every religion but as a religion overall they do not. Just as all Muslims do not "hate' all Jews and Christians. Some Christians come to the religion because of Fire and Brimstone preaching, but I have never seen one who has stay, as that is not enough reason to stay in a faith. The fear of hell is not enough to keep someone a devout Christian.

Dissuade all you want replace "hate" with dislike for the rest if you want but the facts is the facts. Enjoy your trap, it could take you the rest of your life to unlock it or never.

The extremists hate/dislike/frown upon other religions for there religion. Uninformed people hate/dislike/frown upon entire groups of religions for the actions of a few. Typical people will sit here and go "they have there views, and I have mine". The fact that you think all people of religion are uninformed extremists shows the point I was making, that you have no clue really. I have Muslime and Jewish friends, my favorite professor is an Arab Muslim and we can sit and debate the middle east politics for hours on end and we do not hate each other. Yet, according to your observations we should. I am sure many posters here have relationships with people who practice other religions, even religions with extremists that want to destroy there own, and they do not hate those people or that religion.

Religious extremism in any religion is something to be hated/not tolerated. Thankfully extremism plays a very very very small role in the bigger picture of things, a picture many people ignore to focus on the off color pixel in the corner.

All your doing is deflecting. I didn't say ALL christians but you infer it because it seems it is your only arguement. Others can infer it means some christians. With the absence of some or all it is left up the the reader to interpret it. The end.

You know why christians "hate" atheists and any other belief so much? Because they threaten christianity's very nature

You assumed the entire religion, if you are backtracking now I understand why.

While in the midst of belief a christian cannot reconcile the self inflicted threat of hell and loss of a magical heaven. Failure to believe in a believers mind means they must give up heaven and suffer hell. The enduring threats they got suckered into believing has traped them.

Again, all Christians you are referring to as in the entire Christian religion.

You can backtrack all you want on your statements, the result is the same that you are wrong. If you wish to discuss extremist (which it seems you do) we can. As a religion as a whole you are ignorant of it though in your assumptions that Christians as a fatih hate/dislike/look down upon others.

No, you assumed all christians and are assuming a blanket statement based on your own inference. The second part yep I do believe that is an absolute. All christians believe in heaven and hell hence they are trapped. Can you point me to a christian denomination that doesnt believe in heaven and hell?

Edit: Oh, and sure i do believe that many followers of christianity do hate/dislike/disdain people that question their faith but that isnt saying the "faith" itself anthropomorpically speaking does that. Sure it is individuals acting that way. Not only that they also hate/dislike/disdain gays, abortionists, other religions too and sure many don't do that as well. All relative to the situation. If they were all perfect they would be Jesus.

You will notice I now am qualifying by saying many so that you won't shout blanket statement.

 

[busmaster11]

Originally posted by: Luthien
You know why christians "hate" atheists and any other belief so much? Because they threaten christianity's very nature. While in the midst of belief a christian cannot reconcile the self inflicted threat of hell and loss of a magical heaven. Failure to believe in a believers mind means they must give up heaven and suffer hell. The enduring threats they got suckered into believing has traped them. It will continue to trap them until they stop believing in heaven and hell but that means they are going to hell... I think you get the irony of this mind trap that religions love to use because it is so powerful; on top of that they will lose the social bonds that were created within the church and amongst fellow believers so moving on is a very scary thing. It is all no different than any cult. Christianity is a macrocosmic cult just like every other major world religion. The very threat that converted them traps them.

You're thinking from a strictly psychoanalytical perspective. Since you believe that hell is nothing more than a "self-inflicted threat" you clearly don't believe in God. So reasoning with you, again, is impossible, because the Lord has given the humble and the repentent a superior perspective through His Word.

God's perspective. We can get into the hundreds of pieces of scientific and archaeological evidence which points to a Creator (or Jesus specifically) but I don't believe it will do us any good. It did not do me any good...

Believers can only argue based on the premise that we rely on God's Word - and since you deny it, we'll just have to disagree and call it a day.

 

[Luthien]

Originally posted by: busmaster11

Originally posted by: Luthien
You know why christians "hate" atheists and any other belief so much? Because they threaten christianity's very nature. While in the midst of belief a christian cannot reconcile the self inflicted threat of hell and loss of a magical heaven. Failure to believe in a believers mind means they must give up heaven and suffer hell. The enduring threats they got suckered into believing has traped them. It will continue to trap them until they stop believing in heaven and hell but that means they are going to hell... I think you get the irony of this mind trap that religions love to use because it is so powerful; on top of that they will lose the social bonds that were created within the church and amongst fellow believers so moving on is a very scary thing. It is all no different than any cult. Christianity is a macrocosmic cult just like every other major world religion. The very threat that converted them traps them.

You're thinking from a strictly psychoanalytical perspective. Since you believe that hell is nothing more than a "self-inflicted threat" you clearly don't believe in God. So reasoning with you, again, is impossible, because the Lord has given the humble and the repentent a superior perspective through His Word.

God's perspective. We can get into the hundreds of pieces of scientific and archaeological evidence which points to a Creator (or Jesus specifically) but I don't believe it will do us any good. It did not do me any good...

Believers can only argue based on the premise that we rely on God's Word - and since you deny it, we'll just have to disagree and call it a day.

Yeah, I know your chosen and the rest of us are consigned to hell. Been there done that ad nauseam.

So, does all this scientific evidence prove the bible is litteral because if so I gotta hear these proofs.

 

[Maximilian]

A massive big religious related post and pic of to OP to boot. Knew this would be long and dragged out

 

[40sTheme]

Originally posted by: Soviet
A massive big religious related post and pic of to OP to boot. Knew this would be long and dragged out

I just hope noone gets into an actual argument. I hate it when threads break out of civil discussion and people start attacking each other. EDIT: (They DID) RichardE and Luthien have quite the interesting conversation going on right now. I love having all of these points of view to read on this forum. ATOT may take pride in being the very off-color and weird part of AT, but I enjoy the discussions that go on.

 

[irishScott]

My main issue with any major religion is the concept of heaven and hell and why people care about it so much. I will do as I see to be right. Whether I go to hell or heaven is up to god.

I am not going to live my life for the purpose of having eternal bliss after death. I'd like to think I'm not that selfish.

Also, without organized religion, the jihadists would have no real justification for their actions. Neither would the radicals at WACO, the polygamists, or anything else.

Show me the good that religion has done for the world, and I will show you how much bad it has done to counter-balance it.

Spirituality and individual religion are fine, but once a belief starts to take on external structure, it becomes corruptable and potentially dangerous to those around it.

 

[The Sauce]

I have spoken in tongues, even though I thought I never would and thought the whole idea was kind of weird.

Confirms the fact that at some level, all truly religious people are basically nuts. If you walked into my ER doing that you would get a tox screen, a shot of Haldol and a Psych consult.

 

[moshquerade]

Originally posted by: irishScott
My main issue with any major religion is the concept of heaven and hell and why people care about it so much. I will do as I see to be right. Whether I go to hell or heaven is up to god.

I am not going to live my life for the purpose of having eternal bliss after death. I'd like to think I'm not that selfish.

interesting....

do unto others as you would have them do unto you is a good rule to live by.

 

[RichardE]

Originally posted by: Luthien

Originally posted by: RichardE

Originally posted by: Luthien

Originally posted by: RichardE

Originally posted by: Luthien

Originally posted by: RichardE

Originally posted by: Luthien
You know why christians "hate" atheists and any other belief so much? Because they threaten christianity's very nature. While in the midst of belief a christian cannot reconcile the self inflicted threat of hell and loss of a magical heaven. Failure to believe in a believers mind means they must give up heaven and suffer hell. The enduring threats they got suckered into believing has traped them. It will continue to trap them until they stop believing in heaven and hell but that means they are going to hell... I think you get the irony of this mind trap that religions love to use because it is so powerful; on top of that they will lose the social bonds that were created within the church and amongst fellow believers so moving on is a very scary thing. It is all no different than any cult. Christianity is a macrocosmic cult just like every other major world religion. The very threat that converted them traps them.

You don't really have any idea of the Christian religion I see at all. Christians don't "hate" athiests, or muslims, or hindu's ect. Yes, small extremists groups do, as is observed in every religion but as a religion overall they do not. Just as all Muslims do not "hate' all Jews and Christians. Some Christians come to the religion because of Fire and Brimstone preaching, but I have never seen one who has stay, as that is not enough reason to stay in a faith. The fear of hell is not enough to keep someone a devout Christian.

Dissuade all you want replace "hate" with dislike for the rest if you want but the facts is the facts. Enjoy your trap, it could take you the rest of your life to unlock it or never.

The extremists hate/dislike/frown upon other religions for there religion. Uninformed people hate/dislike/frown upon entire groups of religions for the actions of a few. Typical people will sit here and go "they have there views, and I have mine". The fact that you think all people of religion are uninformed extremists shows the point I was making, that you have no clue really. I have Muslime and Jewish friends, my favorite professor is an Arab Muslim and we can sit and debate the middle east politics for hours on end and we do not hate each other. Yet, according to your observations we should. I am sure many posters here have relationships with people who practice other religions, even religions with extremists that want to destroy there own, and they do not hate those people or that religion.

Religious extremism in any religion is something to be hated/not tolerated. Thankfully extremism plays a very very very small role in the bigger picture of things, a picture many people ignore to focus on the off color pixel in the corner.

All your doing is deflecting. I didn't say ALL christians but you infer it because it seems it is your only arguement. Others can infer it means some christians. With the absence of some or all it is left up the the reader to interpret it. The end.

You know why christians "hate" atheists and any other belief so much? Because they threaten christianity's very nature

You assumed the entire religion, if you are backtracking now I understand why.

While in the midst of belief a christian cannot reconcile the self inflicted threat of hell and loss of a magical heaven. Failure to believe in a believers mind means they must give up heaven and suffer hell. The enduring threats they got suckered into believing has traped them.

Again, all Christians you are referring to as in the entire Christian religion.

You can backtrack all you want on your statements, the result is the same that you are wrong. If you wish to discuss extremist (which it seems you do) we can. As a religion as a whole you are ignorant of it though in your assumptions that Christians as a fatih hate/dislike/look down upon others.

No, you assumed all christians and are assuming a blanket statement based on your own inference. The second part yep I do believe that is an absolute. All christians believe in heaven and hell hence they are trapped. Can you point me to a christian denomination that doesnt believe in heaven and hell?

Edit: Oh, and sure i do believe that many followers of christianity do hate/dislike/disdain people that question their faith but that isnt saying the "faith" itself anthropomorpically speaking does that. Sure it is individuals acting that way. Not only that they also hate/dislike/disdain gays, abortionists, other religions too and sure many don't do that as well. All relative to the situation. If they were all perfect they would be Jesus.

You will notice I now am qualifying by saying many so that you won't shout blanket statement.

If you had meant some you would have said

"You know why the majority of Chritians.."
"You know why most Christians.."

Either way

Yes, heaven and hell do exist. Believing in such does not mean you are trapped. Fear of hell is not enough to worship a god you cannot see visually. It is not enough to have faith in something you do not want to believe in. I will admit, there are probably people out there who perhaps this is strong enough for, but the very large majority of Christians are not Christians out of fear of hell. Again we get back to the fact you are not looking at the entire picture of the religion and only focusing on or two points here and there and painting an entire people with your idea of what they believe.

The majority of people do not become or remain Christians because they are afraid of hell.

 

[irishScott]

Originally posted by: moshquerade

Originally posted by: irishScott
My main issue with any major religion is the concept of heaven and hell and why people care about it so much. I will do as I see to be right. Whether I go to hell or heaven is up to god.

I am not going to live my life for the purpose of having eternal bliss after death. I'd like to think I'm not that selfish.

interesting....

do unto others as you would have them do unto you is a good rule to live by.

Not exactly sure where that came from, but I agree for the most part. My personal philosophy was pretty much spelled out in Kingdom of Heaven:

"I put no stock in religion. By the word religion I have seen the lunacy of fanatics of every denomination be called the will of god. Holiness is in right action, and courage on behalf of those who cannot defend themselves, and goodness. What god desires is here [points to head] and here [points to heart] and by what you decide to do everyday, will make you a good man? or not."
-Hospitaler, Kingdom of Heaven.

lol just realized this about the 6th time I've posted this quote here

 

[Macattak1]

Greetings,

Great post! Well written and nicely written. Both are very important coming from a Christian's mouth concerning God.

I would offer that 'Tongues' in the bible is regarding other languages and that it is simply the speaking of the Word in foreign tongues/languages. The bible is clear on the laws regarding Tongues and adding to the Word. For tongues to be more than that implies personal interpretation but most of all creates New Revelation which God would not do. Further, Satan also has the authority to breach the veil and cause people to do things that 'may' appear to be such.

Tongue - glossa {gloce-sah'}
1) the tongue, a member of the body, an organ of speech
2) a tongue
a) the language or dialect used by a particular people distinct from that of other nations


I differ in that I would not call the inquisition Christian in nature. That and things like it were not Christ 'like' so they could not have been done by True Christians. Not all that call themselves Christian are. Wheat and Tears. Wolves in Sheep's clothing. A Christian can fall into sin. Could even murder someone. But not planned and premeditated and enduring as things like the Inquisition were.

We must follow and learn before we can lead. Many desire to lead and do not meet the requirements of a leader, yet they claim God called them. This would be false and that teacher would be a false teacher. I.e. one can not be the head of a church and have divorced post born again. To do so would disqualify them. However, many are false and as a result they do not disqualify themselves and neither do their churches.

Today in the paper I read a sad story about a highly respected minister. He was found to have used the Church CC to pay for $18k in personal expenses over 3 years and was also over paid by $62k in re-imbursements over the last 13 months. I can see and forgive a leader that steals on a 1 time bases $10k to pay for some trouble. But they ultimately have to repent. I would possibly even leave them in charge. But 3 years of lies and pretending like he does not check his reimbursements? Sorry. He should No longer be a leader.

Peace and Blessings

 

[engineereeyore]

Originally posted by: ThePresence

Originally posted by: RichardEAlso, each individual will have to deal with God is his own way. I cannot say that the individual in the jungle of Asia who has never heard of Jesus is going to hell. I do know that if you know about Jesus and reject his teachings that it has been said you will be thrown into hell. Even this is still a debate among Christian circles. (I might even have some of it wrong sorry.)

Didn't Jesus say that no one comes to the Father but by me? If so, why would that not exclude those who never heard of him?

Every person ever born will have the opportunity to hear and accept the Gospel of Jesus Christ, either during this life or the next. That covers all people, even those in the jungle of Asia.

 

[mercanucaribe]

Originally posted by: engineereeyore

Originally posted by: ThePresence

Originally posted by: RichardEAlso, each individual will have to deal with God is his own way. I cannot say that the individual in the jungle of Asia who has never heard of Jesus is going to hell. I do know that if you know about Jesus and reject his teachings that it has been said you will be thrown into hell. Even this is still a debate among Christian circles. (I might even have some of it wrong sorry.)

Didn't Jesus say that no one comes to the Father but by me? If so, why would that not exclude those who never heard of him?

Every person ever born will have the opportunity to hear and accept the Gospel of Jesus Christ, either during this life or the next. That covers all people, even those in the jungle of Asia.

Since I don't believe in The Gospel of Jesus, does that mean I get to accept it if I die and end up hearing it in heaven? Nothing else would be logical since I can't force myself to believe something any more than you can force yourself to believe that Santa Claus is real.

 

[Cerpin Taxt]

Originally posted by: engineereeyore

Originally posted by: ThePresence

Originally posted by: RichardEAlso, each individual will have to deal with God is his own way. I cannot say that the individual in the jungle of Asia who has never heard of Jesus is going to hell. I do know that if you know about Jesus and reject his teachings that it has been said you will be thrown into hell. Even this is still a debate among Christian circles. (I might even have some of it wrong sorry.)

Didn't Jesus say that no one comes to the Father but by me? If so, why would that not exclude those who never heard of him?

Every person ever born will have the opportunity to hear and accept the Gospel of Jesus Christ, either during this life or the next. That covers all people, even those in the jungle of Asia.

Chapter & verse?