I am a Christian

[Luthien]

Originally posted by: RichardE

Originally posted by: Luthien

Originally posted by: RichardE

Originally posted by: Luthien

Originally posted by: RichardE

Originally posted by: Luthien

Originally posted by: RichardE

Originally posted by: Luthien
You know why christians "hate" atheists and any other belief so much? Because they threaten christianity's very nature. While in the midst of belief a christian cannot reconcile the self inflicted threat of hell and loss of a magical heaven. Failure to believe in a believers mind means they must give up heaven and suffer hell. The enduring threats they got suckered into believing has traped them. It will continue to trap them until they stop believing in heaven and hell but that means they are going to hell... I think you get the irony of this mind trap that religions love to use because it is so powerful; on top of that they will lose the social bonds that were created within the church and amongst fellow believers so moving on is a very scary thing. It is all no different than any cult. Christianity is a macrocosmic cult just like every other major world religion. The very threat that converted them traps them.

You don't really have any idea of the Christian religion I see at all. Christians don't "hate" athiests, or muslims, or hindu's ect. Yes, small extremists groups do, as is observed in every religion but as a religion overall they do not. Just as all Muslims do not "hate' all Jews and Christians. Some Christians come to the religion because of Fire and Brimstone preaching, but I have never seen one who has stay, as that is not enough reason to stay in a faith. The fear of hell is not enough to keep someone a devout Christian.

Dissuade all you want replace "hate" with dislike for the rest if you want but the facts is the facts. Enjoy your trap, it could take you the rest of your life to unlock it or never.

The extremists hate/dislike/frown upon other religions for there religion. Uninformed people hate/dislike/frown upon entire groups of religions for the actions of a few. Typical people will sit here and go "they have there views, and I have mine". The fact that you think all people of religion are uninformed extremists shows the point I was making, that you have no clue really. I have Muslime and Jewish friends, my favorite professor is an Arab Muslim and we can sit and debate the middle east politics for hours on end and we do not hate each other. Yet, according to your observations we should. I am sure many posters here have relationships with people who practice other religions, even religions with extremists that want to destroy there own, and they do not hate those people or that religion.

Religious extremism in any religion is something to be hated/not tolerated. Thankfully extremism plays a very very very small role in the bigger picture of things, a picture many people ignore to focus on the off color pixel in the corner.

All your doing is deflecting. I didn't say ALL christians but you infer it because it seems it is your only arguement. Others can infer it means some christians. With the absence of some or all it is left up the the reader to interpret it. The end.

You know why christians "hate" atheists and any other belief so much? Because they threaten christianity's very nature

You assumed the entire religion, if you are backtracking now I understand why.

While in the midst of belief a christian cannot reconcile the self inflicted threat of hell and loss of a magical heaven. Failure to believe in a believers mind means they must give up heaven and suffer hell. The enduring threats they got suckered into believing has traped them.

Again, all Christians you are referring to as in the entire Christian religion.

You can backtrack all you want on your statements, the result is the same that you are wrong. If you wish to discuss extremist (which it seems you do) we can. As a religion as a whole you are ignorant of it though in your assumptions that Christians as a fatih hate/dislike/look down upon others.

No, you assumed all christians and are assuming a blanket statement based on your own inference. The second part yep I do believe that is an absolute. All christians believe in heaven and hell hence they are trapped. Can you point me to a christian denomination that doesnt believe in heaven and hell?

Edit: Oh, and sure i do believe that many followers of christianity do hate/dislike/disdain people that question their faith but that isnt saying the "faith" itself anthropomorpically speaking does that. Sure it is individuals acting that way. Not only that they also hate/dislike/disdain gays, abortionists, other religions too and sure many don't do that as well. All relative to the situation. If they were all perfect they would be Jesus.

You will notice I now am qualifying by saying many so that you won't shout blanket statement.

If you had meant some you would have said

"You know why the majority of Chritians.."
"You know why most Christians.."

Either way

Yes, heaven and hell do exist. Believing in such does not mean you are trapped. Fear of hell is not enough to worship a god you cannot see visually. It is not enough to have faith in something you do not want to believe in. I will admit, there are probably people out there who perhaps this is strong enough for, but the very large majority of Christians are not Christians out of fear of hell. Again we get back to the fact you are not looking at the entire picture of the religion and only focusing on or two points here and there and painting an entire people with your idea of what they believe.

The majority of people do not become or remain Christians because they are afraid of hell.

"If you had meant some you would have said..."

Oh, so you mean if I had meant all I would have said ALL, too, lol. End...

So, we are agreed now that absolutely all christians believe in heaven and hell or at least there is no denomination that doesnt.
You believe that the majority of christians do not become or remain christians because they are afraid of hell. Yes, I do believe that because I am constantly told that is where I am going by my peers if I dont convert as well as by many of the christians posting responses. Even if they dont come right out and say it they imply it.
Ask yourself how many christians are adults when they are converted versus children... I believe MOST are converted via peer pressure, family pressure because everyone else is doing it and are too young to make such a decision, IMO. Simply brainwashed. Now the trap is set because once your in your in for life and all your peers will say your going to hell if you leave. Threats of damnation in religions all set the same trap.

 

[40sTheme]

Originally posted by: irishScott
My main issue with any major religion is the concept of heaven and hell and why people care about it so much. I will do as I see to be right. Whether I go to hell or heaven is up to god.

I am not going to live my life for the purpose of having eternal bliss after death. I'd like to think I'm not that selfish.

Even though I am a Christian, I wouldn't say I live even half of my life for the purpose of having eternal bliss. I have put my faith in God and I constantly build my relationship with him, but I do the same thing as you. I do what I see is right, but I know that since my soul is fully trusted to God, I'm going to heaven. That was His promise. I don't blatantly try to follow every single part of the Bible exactly throughout my entire life. God KNOWS that man can't do that and doesn't expect that out of us. Men are sinful, but if your soul is in God's hands, you are promised eternity in heaven.

 

[engineereeyore]

Originally posted by: mercanucaribe

Originally posted by: engineereeyore

Originally posted by: ThePresence

Originally posted by: RichardEAlso, each individual will have to deal with God is his own way. I cannot say that the individual in the jungle of Asia who has never heard of Jesus is going to hell. I do know that if you know about Jesus and reject his teachings that it has been said you will be thrown into hell. Even this is still a debate among Christian circles. (I might even have some of it wrong sorry.)

Didn't Jesus say that no one comes to the Father but by me? If so, why would that not exclude those who never heard of him?

Every person ever born will have the opportunity to hear and accept the Gospel of Jesus Christ, either during this life or the next. That covers all people, even those in the jungle of Asia.

Since I don't believe in The Gospel of Jesus, does that mean I get to accept it if I die and end up hearing it in heaven? Nothing else would be logical since I can't force myself to believe something any more than you can force yourself to believe that Santa Claus is real.

It means that if you hear the true gospel on Earth and reject it, that's all you get. But if you lived in a time or place where such was not available to you, you will get the chance. There is no "I'll just wait and live my life how I wish now because I can just accept it later". You're not guaranteed anything other than one chance.

 

[engineereeyore]

Originally posted by: Garth

Originally posted by: engineereeyore

Originally posted by: ThePresence

Originally posted by: RichardEAlso, each individual will have to deal with God is his own way. I cannot say that the individual in the jungle of Asia who has never heard of Jesus is going to hell. I do know that if you know about Jesus and reject his teachings that it has been said you will be thrown into hell. Even this is still a debate among Christian circles. (I might even have some of it wrong sorry.)

Didn't Jesus say that no one comes to the Father but by me? If so, why would that not exclude those who never heard of him?

Every person ever born will have the opportunity to hear and accept the Gospel of Jesus Christ, either during this life or the next. That covers all people, even those in the jungle of Asia.

Chapter & verse?

1 Peter 4:6
1 Peter 3:17-18

 

[HeroOfPellinor]

Originally posted by: irishScott
My main issue with any major religion is the concept of heaven and hell and why people care about it so much. I will do as I see to be right. Whether I go to hell or heaven is up to god.

An excellent point. Wanting to go to heaven instead of hell is probably the number one response to why somebody is a Christian. And, I agree, it's a lousy reason.

The core of Christianity is belief that you are sinful (i.e. not perfect) and that there is a God and He can offer you forgiveness for your sins. Requisitely, you must be a person who feels or can conceive that he NEEDS forgiveness for his sins and that's where many people are turned off. It's a humbling concept and we are not humble creatures. It's one reason many people come to grasp the concept when they are in the midst of suffering for their past actions.

Beyond that, the rest of the Bible is meant as example, guidance and instruction. And the more closely you live your life by its Word, the more wisdom you find in it's ways. We all will be faced with countless moments of decision in our lives. SOMETHING will be your guide at those moments whether it be your emotions.....your logic......your conscience.....the counsel of others......something or a combination of somethings. Wouldn't it be nice if you could have the advice of somebody who knows what the ultimate outcome will be? Now, most decisions don't need this kind of intense analysis, but the more you do the wise and godly thing, the more it becomes your nature and you reap the rewards in your life.

Strangley enough, some of these directions are mimiced in parts of other religeons....suggesting to me at least that these are more than arbitrary commands but, rather, glimpes into a more universal truth about the human condition. I came to a conclusion about how to manage my emotions from the Bible.......in my own mind I called it balancing on the fence..........come to find out studying Buddhism that it's called the Middle Way. Not one for one, but a similar basic concept.

 

[mercanucaribe]

Originally posted by: engineereeyore

Originally posted by: mercanucaribe

Originally posted by: engineereeyore

Originally posted by: ThePresence

Originally posted by: RichardEAlso, each individual will have to deal with God is his own way. I cannot say that the individual in the jungle of Asia who has never heard of Jesus is going to hell. I do know that if you know about Jesus and reject his teachings that it has been said you will be thrown into hell. Even this is still a debate among Christian circles. (I might even have some of it wrong sorry.)

Didn't Jesus say that no one comes to the Father but by me? If so, why would that not exclude those who never heard of him?

Every person ever born will have the opportunity to hear and accept the Gospel of Jesus Christ, either during this life or the next. That covers all people, even those in the jungle of Asia.

Since I don't believe in The Gospel of Jesus, does that mean I get to accept it if I die and end up hearing it in heaven? Nothing else would be logical since I can't force myself to believe something any more than you can force yourself to believe that Santa Claus is real.

It means that if you hear the true gospel on Earth and reject it, that's all you get. But if you lived in a time or place where such was not available to you, you will get the chance. There is no "I'll just wait and live my life how I wish now because I can just accept it later". You're not guaranteed anything other than one chance.

You're saying that your God will punish me for not believing in him, despite the fact that he knows that a person can't force himself to believe something? Sounds like he has issues.

 

[Macattak1]

Originally posted by: mercanucaribe

Originally posted by: engineereeyore

Originally posted by: ThePresence

Originally posted by: RichardEAlso, each individual will have to deal with God is his own way. I cannot say that the individual in the jungle of Asia who has never heard of Jesus is going to hell. I do know that if you know about Jesus and reject his teachings that it has been said you will be thrown into hell. Even this is still a debate among Christian circles. (I might even have some of it wrong sorry.)

Didn't Jesus say that no one comes to the Father but by me? If so, why would that not exclude those who never heard of him?

Every person ever born will have the opportunity to hear and accept the Gospel of Jesus Christ, either during this life or the next. That covers all people, even those in the jungle of Asia.

Since I don't believe in The Gospel of Jesus, does that mean I get to accept it if I die and end up hearing it in heaven? Nothing else would be logical since I can't force myself to believe something any more than you can force yourself to believe that Santa Claus is real.

Greetings,

Correct. That is why we are Drawn. A word indicating force, power, authority.

Also, all of God's Children have the Word on their Hearts. That is why, when missionaries go to a deep part of some country that no man goes to and has never been evangelized they 'may' find a tribe that already knows about Jesus, though they never had a worldly teacher.

If one does not have a desire to believe, just like I can not believe in a magical Santa, they can still ask for that beliefe. The difference being that there is no magical Santa to answer me, but there Is a God that may answer you, me, or anyone.

Peace and Blessings

 

[FoBoT]

Originally posted by: Fraggable

By the way, the bible does not say that good people get to Heaven. Saved people get to Heaven. - look that up for yourself too.

that is debatable
which is another point of attack for anti-christians, christians debating doctrine/scripture amongst themselves

 

[HeroOfPellinor]

Originally posted by: mercanucaribe
You're saying that your God will punish me for not believing in him, despite the fact that he knows that a person can't force himself to believe something? Sounds like he has issues.

Well if you don't believe then it's probably because of something blocking you. Your selfishness, your pride, your insecurity. Set about working on these fundamental flaws in your own life and you'll be surprised.

 

[deepred98]

Originally posted by: HeroOfPellinor

Originally posted by: mercanucaribe
You're saying that your God will punish me for not believing in him, despite the fact that he knows that a person can't force himself to believe something? Sounds like he has issues.

Well if you don't believe then it's probably because of something blocking you. Your selfishness, your pride, your insecurity. Set about working on these fundamental flaws in your own life and you'll be surprised.

or maybe one's intelligence?

 

[HeroOfPellinor]

Originally posted by: FoBoT

Originally posted by: Fraggable

By the way, the bible does not say that good people get to Heaven. Saved people get to Heaven. - look that up for yourself too.

that is debatable
which is another point of attack for anti-christians, christians debating doctrine/scripture amongst themselves

I don't know any Christian denomination that doesn't agree with that. There's plenty of disagreement, but it's on the peripheral details. And I don't think, logically, you could call that an argument against it. Then again I eat meat because I knew a guy who was a vegan and another guy who was an ova-lacto vegetarian....if they can't even agree their story straight then like hell am I passing on a hamburger.....er....right?

 

[HeroOfPellinor]

Originally posted by: deepred98

Originally posted by: HeroOfPellinor

Originally posted by: mercanucaribe
You're saying that your God will punish me for not believing in him, despite the fact that he knows that a person can't force himself to believe something? Sounds like he has issues.

Well if you don't believe then it's probably because of something blocking you. Your selfishness, your pride, your insecurity. Set about working on these fundamental flaws in your own life and you'll be surprised.

or maybe one's intelligence?

Attacking somebody's intlligence....an act of both insecurity and pride. Thanks! I didn't think anybody would fall for that.

 

[BudAshes]

If you believe in Christianity or any other faith based religion you shouldn't ever be able to use the word logic. Logic is against your religion.

 

[ThePresence]

Originally posted by: engineereeyore

Originally posted by: ThePresence

Originally posted by: RichardEAlso, each individual will have to deal with God is his own way. I cannot say that the individual in the jungle of Asia who has never heard of Jesus is going to hell. I do know that if you know about Jesus and reject his teachings that it has been said you will be thrown into hell. Even this is still a debate among Christian circles. (I might even have some of it wrong sorry.)

Didn't Jesus say that no one comes to the Father but by me? If so, why would that not exclude those who never heard of him?

Every person ever born will have the opportunity to hear and accept the Gospel of Jesus Christ, either during this life or the next. That covers all people, even those in the jungle of Asia.

I don't understand this.
The facts can easily show that there are people who have lived and died without ever hearing of Jesus or his teachings. If you say they will hear in the next life, don't you already need to be saved to experience that?

 

[engineereeyore]

Originally posted by: mercanucaribe

You're saying that your God will punish me for not believing in him, despite the fact that he knows that a person can't force himself to believe something? Sounds like he has issues.

I don't recall saying anything of the sort. If you live a life without God now, how awful will it be to live for eternity without him? Sounds to me like he's given you exactly what you want. I think he's probably not the one with issues.

 

[HeroOfPellinor]

Originally posted by: BudAshes
If you believe in Christianity or any other faith based religion you shouldn't ever be able to use the word logic. Logic is against your religion.

That's funny. Tell me the non-Creationism theory about how the universe was formed again? With a straight face please.

 

[engineereeyore]

Originally posted by: ThePresence
I don't understand this.
The facts can easily show that there are people who have lived and died without ever hearing of Jesus or his teachings. If you say they will hear in the next life, don't you already need to be saved to experience that?

To hear the gospel? No. Everyone, regardless of how they lived here, will live again. That's just a given. As for hearing the gospel, you don't have to be saved here to hear it. Why would you need to be saved there to hear it? Besides, how can you be saved if you've never heard the gospel?

 

[Macattak1]

Originally posted by: BudAshes
If you believe in Christianity or any other faith based religion you shouldn't ever be able to use the word logic. Logic is against your religion.

Greetings,

Guess it can be based upon one's perception?

Many books of the bible, written at different times, declaring future prophecy, have been seen those prophecies fulfilled. Proven for some? That is not logical?

Peace and Blessings

 

[Cerpin Taxt]

Originally posted by: engineereeyore

Originally posted by: Garth

Originally posted by: engineereeyore

Originally posted by: ThePresence

Originally posted by: RichardEAlso, each individual will have to deal with God is his own way. I cannot say that the individual in the jungle of Asia who has never heard of Jesus is going to hell. I do know that if you know about Jesus and reject his teachings that it has been said you will be thrown into hell. Even this is still a debate among Christian circles. (I might even have some of it wrong sorry.)

Didn't Jesus say that no one comes to the Father but by me? If so, why would that not exclude those who never heard of him?

Every person ever born will have the opportunity to hear and accept the Gospel of Jesus Christ, either during this life or the next. That covers all people, even those in the jungle of Asia.

Chapter & verse?

1 Peter 4:6
1 Peter 3:17-18

Ohhhhh you're a Mormon. I dare say you have larger problems, then. From just a quick googling there seems to be some definite differences of opinion with regard to your interpretation of those verses.

 

[ThePresence]

Originally posted by: engineereeyore

Originally posted by: ThePresence
I don't understand this.
The facts can easily show that there are people who have lived and died without ever hearing of Jesus or his teachings. If you say they will hear in the next life, don't you already need to be saved to experience that?

To hear the gospel? No. Everyone, regardless of how they lived here, will live again. That's just a given. As for hearing the gospel, you don't have to be saved here to hear it. Why would you need to be saved there to hear it? Besides, how can you be saved if you've never heard the gospel?

Then what is the point of living? What is the point of accepting Jesus on earth? If everyone hears his teachings in the afterlife, and if they accept at that point they are saved, then it seems to me that life is a waste of time.

 

[deepinya]

People can believe what they like....just dont force your opinions upon me or tell me what I should or shouldnt believe in.

Cant we all agree to disagree and move on?

 

[flexy]

actually i give a **** what people call themselves or what institution of church they belong to.

Just because someone claims to be christian because they adhere to RITUALS or attend church actually does NOT make them better people or prove that that they DO live a 'true' christian live. I mean the world is full of hippocrites which claim from themsevles to belong to this or that church (which, in essence is ok)...but their real LIFES totally contradict that.

I, however, also know MANY people who are not religious (or actively left their church) and who do (IMHO) live a much more truthful life 'in sync with god and his creation" (so to speak).

A good example is my dad:

We were all born and raised catholic.

As it is the case with catholics you go to church on SUNDAY which (allegedly) makes you a catholic

Anyway each sunday we went out with my dad for church....and very often MY DAD said he didnt want to go to that hippocrates or pseudo-christians/catholics in church.....so we went on a Sunday WALK instead in Nature, through the woods etc..etc.....and my dad often saying that this might be MUCH more in 'Gods' sense or 'spiritual'. (As compared to sitting in a dark church with rituals on a timeframe and sterotypic readings of the priest).


I always look at HOW people LIVE their lives...and (SADLY) i also sometimes see SOOO religios people devoted to their religion and their rituals, that they totally miss out on REAL issues.......spawning things like INTOLERANCE (mostly), intolerance against their own kids, intolerance against people having differnt beliefs etc..etc...and i do NOT think that intolerance was one teaching of any christian/catholic etc. religion

 

[PlatinumGold]

Originally posted by: Luthien

Originally posted by: busmaster11

Originally posted by: Luthien
You know why christians "hate" atheists and any other belief so much? Because they threaten christianity's very nature. While in the midst of belief a christian cannot reconcile the self inflicted threat of hell and loss of a magical heaven. Failure to believe in a believers mind means they must give up heaven and suffer hell. The enduring threats they got suckered into believing has traped them. It will continue to trap them until they stop believing in heaven and hell but that means they are going to hell... I think you get the irony of this mind trap that religions love to use because it is so powerful; on top of that they will lose the social bonds that were created within the church and amongst fellow believers so moving on is a very scary thing. It is all no different than any cult. Christianity is a macrocosmic cult just like every other major world religion. The very threat that converted them traps them.

You're thinking from a strictly psychoanalytical perspective. Since you believe that hell is nothing more than a "self-inflicted threat" you clearly don't believe in God. So reasoning with you, again, is impossible, because the Lord has given the humble and the repentent a superior perspective through His Word.

God's perspective. We can get into the hundreds of pieces of scientific and archaeological evidence which points to a Creator (or Jesus specifically) but I don't believe it will do us any good. It did not do me any good...

Believers can only argue based on the premise that we rely on God's Word - and since you deny it, we'll just have to disagree and call it a day.

Yeah, I know your chosen and the rest of us are consigned to hell. Been there done that ad nauseam.

So, does all this scientific evidence prove the bible is litteral because if so I gotta hear these proofs.

i'm a christian, have been all my life, don't believe in the "hell" that is commonly concieved, to me, separation from God IS hell. and i don't believe in an eternal fire either.


as to hating non christians, nope, i don't hate non christians any more or less than i hate christians. i don't base my hatred of people simply on something generic as their belief system but based on my interactions with individual people. and christ discourages hatred.


your mocking tone is annoying though, we can have an intelligent conversation without the mocking.

it seems to me that many non christians / athiest are just as evangelical and full of hatred for christians as you claim christians feel for non believers. and it could be argued that this hatred stems from the same reason you claims christians hate, due to their own insecurities.

 

[FoBoT]

Originally posted by: ThePresence

Originally posted by: engineereeyore

Originally posted by: ThePresence

Originally posted by: RichardEAlso, each individual will have to deal with God is his own way. I cannot say that the individual in the jungle of Asia who has never heard of Jesus is going to hell. I do know that if you know about Jesus and reject his teachings that it has been said you will be thrown into hell. Even this is still a debate among Christian circles. (I might even have some of it wrong sorry.)

Didn't Jesus say that no one comes to the Father but by me? If so, why would that not exclude those who never heard of him?

Every person ever born will have the opportunity to hear and accept the Gospel of Jesus Christ, either during this life or the next. That covers all people, even those in the jungle of Asia.

I don't understand this.
The facts can easily show that there are people who have lived and died without ever hearing of Jesus or his teachings. If you say they will hear in the next life, don't you already need to be saved to experience that?

no, some christians believe ALL will be resurrected and those that never heard of J.C. on Earth will have the chance after they are resurrected. but they still have freedom of choice, nobody is forced to accept J.C. now or later or ever. if a hindu gets resurrected and still wants to stay hindu , that is freedom of choice, now and through eternity

as i stated in my other post, not ALL christians believe "non-saved" people go to hell and are SOL because they were born in a time/place where they can't learn of J.C.

 

[ThePresence]

Originally posted by: FoBoT

Originally posted by: ThePresence

Originally posted by: engineereeyore

Originally posted by: ThePresence

Originally posted by: RichardEAlso, each individual will have to deal with God is his own way. I cannot say that the individual in the jungle of Asia who has never heard of Jesus is going to hell. I do know that if you know about Jesus and reject his teachings that it has been said you will be thrown into hell. Even this is still a debate among Christian circles. (I might even have some of it wrong sorry.)

Didn't Jesus say that no one comes to the Father but by me? If so, why would that not exclude those who never heard of him?

Every person ever born will have the opportunity to hear and accept the Gospel of Jesus Christ, either during this life or the next. That covers all people, even those in the jungle of Asia.

I don't understand this.
The facts can easily show that there are people who have lived and died without ever hearing of Jesus or his teachings. If you say they will hear in the next life, don't you already need to be saved to experience that?

no, some christians believe ALL will be resurrected and those that never heard of J.C. on Earth will have the chance after they are resurrected. but they still have freedom of choice, nobody is forced to accept J.C. now or later or ever. if a hindu gets resurrected and still wants to stay hindu , that is freedom of choice, now and through eternity

as i stated in my other post, not ALL christians believe "non-saved" people go to hell and are SOL because they were born in a time/place where they can't learn of J.C.

Well, then we're back to square one. Jesus said that "no one comes to the Father but by me" which would seem to exclude those who haven't heard of him.