Hybrid owners unlikely to repeat

[Doppel]

Well of course not, not when innovation is being driven via legislation instead of private R&D. Why develop diesel when you are disincentivized to do so? Hybrid drivetrains have never been a good solution, but they got political support, and so development in other areas suffered.

On the contrary hybrid drivetrains are fvcking amazing, in theory, and in practice. Recover energy from braking, allow the ICE to run and dump power into the battery when it otherwise couldn't.

It's like people don't realize that the Toyota Prius very close to DOUBLES the freaking city mileage of a comparable non-hybrid vehicle--and does it with exceptional decade+ proven reliability.

I believe last month was the best in history for hybrid sales. At some point people will have to start admitting that Prius buyers are more than just tree jumping hippies trying to make a political statement. Proven effect of marketing is people buying a "40 mpg" vehicle because a commercial said 40 but its combined, in practice, mpg is about 65% what the Prius could have gotten them.

 

[Childs]

I have a prius C

How tall are you? I'm just wondering how the leg room is for the driver.

 

[vi edit]

How tall are you? I'm just wondering how the leg room is for the driver.

Front seat is fine. But if you are over 6' don't even think about trying to put anyone over 4' tall behind them.

 

[Childs]

Front seat is fine. But if you are over 6' don't even think about trying to put anyone over 4' tall behind them.

I'm 6'1" and I have fairly wide shoulders. I have felt cramped in my last two cars (Xterra, Mazda 3) and would like some room. My right root actually rests on my ankle on the gas pedal because I can't straighten out my leg. hmmm...How tall are you?

 

[vi edit]

I'm 6' with most of my height in my legs...34" inseam and wear a size 12 shoe. Leg room is always my issue with most cars. Well techincally my knees...I usually can't get them under the steering wheel. Funny you mention both the Mazda 3 and XTerra. I had a '04 Mazda 3 and a '08 Mazda 5. If fit both of them, but would have liked another 3" or so of travel on the seats. I also had an '05 Nissan Frontier that was very comfortable, but again I had it all the way slid back.

Toyota is very good about leg room. Probably one of the best out of Japan. I fit comfortably in the C but at the sacrifice of any usable seating in the back. If you really want comfortable, look at the Prius V. I sat in one of those at the car show a few weeks ago and it had an excellent seating position. It sits higher than the other two Prius models and has just a lot more room all around in it.

 

[Childs]

My Xterra is an 04, so I have the previous gen body style which was smaller. I liked the look better so I rationalized the lack of space for the driver.

I like the idea of the beltless accessories in the Prius C, and the styling looks better than the V imo. I guess I'll head out to the dealership tomorrow and actually sit in one. I kinda wanted to wait for the Ford CMax Hybrid coming out in the fall, but I guess if the Prius C has good legroom I might as well go with that. You can't really argue with the price.

 

[werepossum]

On the contrary hybrid drivetrains are fvcking amazing, in theory, and in practice. Recover energy from braking, allow the ICE to run and dump power into the battery when it otherwise couldn't.

It's like people don't realize that the Toyota Prius very close to DOUBLES the freaking city mileage of a comparable non-hybrid vehicle--and does it with exceptional decade+ proven reliability.

I believe last month was the best in history for hybrid sales. At some point people will have to start admitting that Prius buyers are more than just tree jumping hippies trying to make a political statement. Proven effect of marketing is people buying a "40 mpg" vehicle because a commercial said 40 but its combined, in practice, mpg is about 65% what the Prius could have gotten them.

Exactly, hybrids have little to no advantage in highway driving but a huge advantage in city driving. Plug-in hybrids have an even greater advantage.

 

[vi edit]

Plug-in hybrids have an even greater advantage.

For the premium that you pay to go plugin over the premium you already pay to go hybrid over conventional the value *REALLY* starts dimishing. A prius plug in *starts* at $32,000. And that's for only 15 miles of range.

A Prius starts at $23,000. You would never in two or three lifetimes of that car pay that back in gas savings.

 

[Ferzerp]

On the contrary hybrid drivetrains are fvcking amazing, in theory, and in practice. Recover energy from braking, allow the ICE to run and dump power into the battery when it otherwise couldn't.

It's like people don't realize that the Toyota Prius very close to DOUBLES the freaking city mileage of a comparable non-hybrid vehicle--and does it with exceptional decade+ proven reliability.

I believe last month was the best in history for hybrid sales. At some point people will have to start admitting that Prius buyers are more than just tree jumping hippies trying to make a political statement. Proven effect of marketing is people buying a "40 mpg" vehicle because a commercial said 40 but its combined, in practice, mpg is about 65% what the Prius could have gotten them.

Not really. Coupling both the motor and the ICE to the wheels is a pretty silly thing to do. The only one that's doing it sanely (think how locomotives have been running for years) is the volt.

Electric + generator powered by ICE is much more simple and elegant than making the frankendrivetrains that most of these things are using now.

 

[BrunoPuntzJones]

For the premium that you pay to go plugin over the premium you already pay to go hybrid over conventional the value *REALLY* starts dimishing. A prius plug in *starts* at $32,000. And that's for only 15 miles of range.

A Prius starts at $23,000. You would never in two or three lifetimes of that car pay that back in gas savings.

Well, you could say the plug-in starts at 29,500 since there is a $2500 federal tax credit. Maybe more depending on the state.

Not saying it makes any difference in the break-even, just an FYI that it qualifies for some credits.

 

[Arkaign]

I love my prius. 60+ miles per gallon, 500+ miles on a 8.5 gallon tank > *

A small diesel could do better, without needing batteries that add initial cost and eventual maintenance cost.

I just wanted to chime in that it's absolutely bunk that a small diesel could do better in the Prius. The Prius isn't huge, but also isn't a tiny tin can car, it's somewhere on the margins between compact and midsize. And 60+mpg is impossible to do with a car that size on Diesel. Remember, the numbers you see that are really inflated with Diesel almost always quote Imperial gallons, which are larger (1 UK Gallon = 1.2 US Gallon). Also to consider is the European fuel economy ratings are inflated compared to new US specs.

The testing of the A3 TDI here shows good fuel economy, but not quite up to Prius levels.

http://www.autoblog.com/2009/05/21/review-2010-audi-a3-tdi-diesel-with-a-healthy-dash-of-sport/

The identical model sold in the UK is advertised at 64.2mpg combined, which puts it over 53mpg on US Gallons. Clearly not what the thing got with real testing here. EPA testing rated it at 34mpg combined. Clearly a massive difference in testing methodology and realism.

And as a final nail in the coffin when comparing diesels to hybrids for cars like these, diesel prices can often be outrageous depending on the area. Regular in my area is 3.69 right now, the cheapest Diesel is $3.91, and there are few diesel stations compared to gas. Most diesel pumps are priced higher than Premium.

A diesel hybrid, now that might be the ticket. As for now, the only diesel I would consider would be for a work truck.

 

[JulesMaximus]

I just wanted to chime in that it's absolutely bunk that a small diesel could do better in the Prius. The Prius isn't huge, but also isn't a tiny tin can car, it's somewhere on the margins between compact and midsize. And 60+mpg is impossible to do with a car that size on Diesel. Remember, the numbers you see that are really inflated with Diesel almost always quote Imperial gallons, which are larger (1 UK Gallon = 1.2 US Gallon). Also to consider is the European fuel economy ratings are inflated compared to new US specs.

The testing of the A3 TDI here shows good fuel economy, but not quite up to Prius levels.

http://www.autoblog.com/2009/05/21/review-2010-audi-a3-tdi-diesel-with-a-healthy-dash-of-sport/

The identical model sold in the UK is advertised at 64.2mpg combined, which puts it over 53mpg on US Gallons. Clearly not what the thing got with real testing here. EPA testing rated it at 34mpg combined. Clearly a massive difference in testing methodology and realism.

And as a final nail in the coffin when comparing diesels to hybrids for cars like these, diesel prices can often be outrageous depending on the area. Regular in my area is 3.69 right now, the cheapest Diesel is $3.91, and there are few diesel stations compared to gas. Most diesel pumps are priced higher than Premium.

A diesel hybrid, now that might be the ticket. As for now, the only diesel I would consider would be for a work truck.

Agreed. The type of driving I do even though about half of it is on the freeway it is not at a constant 55-60mph. There is slowing and sometimes stopping due to traffic so it is basically the same as city driving. I average about 21mpg with my Maxima which is between the city and highway mileage so out of a Golf Diesel I could probably expect low 30s for mpg vs 51 for a Prius. That's a pretty big difference. I could probably get low 30s with the Ford Focus and that runs on regular unleaded vs the more expensive diesel fuel. Diesel just doesn't make any sense to me.

I drive 15,000 miles a year just in commuting.

 

[Ferzerp]

I know about the conversion, but at the end of the day, these hybrids are still using gasoline (which is partially silly, but partially fine due to availability).

With the amount of money that has been sunk in to such a horrid design (again, driving the wheels with both the electric motor and the ICE?? Did we not learn anything from decades of locomotive construction?), Diesels could be in a much better position.

Not that I'd want to drive either model (a hybrid, a gasoline-electric, a diesel-electric, a diesel, or a 0-range electric), but too much money has been sunk in to normal hybrids (and way too much subsidized money at that).

 

[JulesMaximus]

I know about the conversion, but at the end of the day, these hybrids are still using gasoline (which is partially silly, but partially fine due to availability).

With the amount of money that has been sunk in to such a horrid design (again, driving the wheels with both the electric motor and the ICE?? Did we not learn anything from decades of locomotive construction?), Diesels could be in a much better position.

Not that I'd want to drive either model (a hybrid, a gasoline-electric, a diesel-electric, a diesel, or a 0-range electric), but too much money has been sunk in to normal hybrids (and way too much subsidized money at that).

Another problem with diesels is that they stink. And cities with a lot of diesel car use stink too. I have some Swiss friends and they complain about the smell in some of the cities there because of widespread use of diesel fueled vehicles.

 

[Ferzerp]

They're still a more efficient choice. The cheapest choice right now would likely be a diesel-electric automobile (not hybrid). Sadly none are manufactured.

US regulations on diesel emissions are much more strengent than most European regulations. Ours don't stink (but we do lose out on efficiency).

 

[Arkaign]

Well, my comments are basically focused on the reality of what we have right now in the market (or theoretical market if we're including misc small and micro diesels from the euro market). I won't argue at all with the fact that US gov't policy on diesel is pretty bad overall, there's zero reason diesel should be more expensive than gasoline when I'm 99% sure (going by information given to me by an industry insider/engineer) that diesel is easier to produce than gasoline from oil sources. The EPA restrictions on diesel emissions have also probably been excessive and constrictive on development of more diesel vehicles.

Diesel does absolutely fantastic in larger vehicles though, the difference between driving a big gas V8 full-size heavy duty work truck and the diesel counterpart is absolutely stunning, both in torque and fuel economy.

 

[Ferzerp]

Well what we have now is a result of legislating technology.

 

[JulesMaximus]

They're still a more efficient choice. The cheapest choice right now would likely be a diesel-electric automobile (not hybrid). Sadly none are manufactured.

US regulations on diesel emissions are much more strengent than most European regulations. Ours don't stink (but we do lose out on efficiency).

Another problem we have with going to small diesel cars is that our infrastructure isn't setup for large scale usage of diesel fuel. More demand for diesel fuel will only drive the price of it up.

 

[Arkaign]

They're still a more efficient choice. The cheapest choice right now would likely be a diesel-electric automobile (not hybrid). Sadly none are manufactured.

US regulations on diesel emissions are much more strengent than most European regulations. Ours don't stink (but we do lose out on efficiency).

I'm not sure what you mean here.

For the consumer, a Prius gets markedly better fuel economy than currently available diesel vehicles of comparable size/utility. It's especially pronounced for the majority of Americans who have a considerable amount of urban driving in their typical day/week/month. A hypothetical person who drove almost nothing but wide open highway might see some fairly even numbers in the diesel, but otherwise it's a blowout.

For the environmental impact of production and the complexity of engineering and materials, for the subsidies and stupidity of US Gov't policy on Diesel, etc, then many arguments could be made that if any number of variables were to change, that diesel COULD make more sense in a car like this. I get the feeling that Diesel if anything should be ~15% less or more per gallon than gasoline, and that without as much gov't interference, diesels would be even cheaper to make and operate (especially with the consideration of the principles involved with economies of scale).

In the real world as it stands, Prius beats the diesel sedan. As for the future, we can hope that things improve.

 

[vi edit]

I won't argue at all with the fact that US gov't policy on diesel is pretty bad overall, there's zero reason diesel should be more expensive than gasoline when I'm 99% sure (going by information given to me by an industry insider/engineer) that diesel is easier to produce than gasoline from oil sources. The EPA restrictions on diesel emissions have also probably been excessive and constrictive on development of more diesel vehicles.

You only get half the amount of diesel out of a barrell of oil that you do regular gasoline. And it's actually in more demand because of it's enormous use in transportation and construction (Think enormous cruise ships, cargo ships, semi trucks, busses, earth moving equipment, ect).

Some cruise liners get 40 feet a gallon.

 

[ElFenix]

polk's press release doesn't say 'trade in,' it says 'return to market.'

if dude and wife have a prius and a truck, and use the truck for runs to home depot and hauling the fifth wheel, when it comes time to replace that truck they 'return to market' as a hybrid owner but buy another truck. not a prius. that says very little about the prius.

 

[Arkaign]

polk's press release doesn't say 'trade in,' it says 'return to market.'

if dude and wife have a prius and a truck, and use the truck for runs to home depot and hauling the fifth wheel, when it comes time to replace that truck they 'return to market' as a hybrid owner but buy another truck. not a prius. that says very little about the prius.

Interesting. And it shows the disconnect that can happen with statistics sometimes. Reminds me of the thread about car inventory shelf life.

 

[Ferzerp]

I'm not sure what you mean here.

I mean that the peak efficiency (with decent range) that we can reasonably design with out some massive paradigm shifting fuel advances would be a diesel-electric (diesel wins out over gasoline because in running a generator we can play on only the strengths of diesel and not deal with the weaknesses that we do when we drive the wheels directly with it) vehicle.

If we don't care about range, pure electric wins, but we haven't batteries that are as energy dense as gasoline or diesel currenly.


However, we have legislated technology such that instead of seeking the optimum solution, what we get is something less, but what has been governmentally blessed for development.

 

[Arkaign]

I mean that the peak efficiency (with decent range) that we can reasonably design with out some massive paradigm shifting fuel advances would be a diesel-electric (diesel wins out over gasoline because in running a generator we can play on only the strengths of diesel and not deal with the weaknesses that we do when we drive the wheels directly with it) vehicle.

If we don't care about range, pure electric wins, but we haven't batteries that are as energy dense as gasoline or diesel currenly.


However, we have legislated technology such that instead of seeking the optimum solution, what we get is something less, but what has been governmentally blessed for development.

Fair enough, and that all makes sense.

 

[TridenT]

I'd like to see the Prius come down in price. One of the reasons I'm sure some people don't get the car is because of the price. They think, "Ok. I save a few dollars on gas every year, but I have to spend thousands more upfront? Eh."

I'm pretty sure I'll never buy one just because of that initial price never seemingly making it worth it.

My car might not get 60mpg, but it was $4k and gets around 28/35 mpg if I don't hammer it everywhere.