How to Talk to Your Jewish Friends About Israel

[kylebisme]

?I can talk to my Jewish friends about anything -- except Israel. When that subject comes up, they just shut down.?

I?ve heard this complaint from so many people, so many times, that I want to offer a few suggestions about how to talk to your ?pro-Israel? Jewish friends. I hope this will be helpful to everyone, Jew and non-Jew alike, who is critical of Israel?s war policy and wants to move public opinion toward peace.

First, you can think about your own reasons for raising the subject. Are you just trying to express yourself -- to bear moral witness or vent moral outrage? Or do you want to help your Jewish friends think about Israel?s actions in a new, more peace-oriented way? Let?s assume it?s the latter.

That means you aren?t just trying to score points and win the debate. So there?s no reason to go on the attack. Even though you may have most of the right and justice on your side, take it slow and easy. If you put your Jewish friends on the defensive, they are likely to close their ears, eyes, and minds. That?s what we all do when we feel defensive about anything.

And many of your friends probably feel defensive when it comes to Israel. They are defending themselves against the voice of their own conscience. They are morally sensitive people. That?s what is so frustrating. They care deeply about social justice in every other arena. But there is something peculiar about this Israel thing that seems to throw their normal ethical compass out of whack.

That ?something? is a very complicated mix of factors. Part of it is a lifetime?s worth of socialization. They?ve been raised in a community that assumes -- without question, as an article of faith -- that Israel really is fighting for its life. They?ve been taught to see Israel as an innocent victim, surrounded by irrational, barbaric anti-semites bent on destroying it. So all Israel can do is fight back.

read on

I just stumbled across a link to the article a bit ago but it talks about something I've been trying to keep in mind during the current political debate, and I think Professor Chernus does a wonderful job explaining the importance of these considerations. It is often easy to assume whoever opposes us does so out of malevolence, but jumping to such conclusions only serves to obstruct from the mutual understanding which can serve towards resolving this conflict.

 

[blackllotus]

While the methods that the professor presents are applicable to any situation, his statements are based around his view that Israel is wrong. Why post flamebait?

 

[Screech]

uhhh....that just links to the PN forum.

 

[blackllotus]

I just read what he had quoted

 

[GroundedSailor]

Bad link.

 

[imported_dna]

Why am I not surprise that TheSnowman created this thread?

 

[BeauJangles]

I got a very Jewish school and it is hard to have ANY discussion about Israel unless you come out 100% in support of what they are doing. If you have any doubts or questions, you won't get anywhere.

 

[kylebisme]

Sorry, I got sloppy copying and pasting from other windows. The link is fixed now so you can read the whole article.

Oh, and blackllotus, I understand the position in the article might ruffle some feathers as it is directed at those who do feel Israel has stepped beyond justification, but in giving some perspective to the those who fully support Israels current actions I hope that it will serve to help avoid flame wars in the future. Hopefully that will be more clear now that the rest of the article is linked.

I'm also interested if anyone knows of a similar piece written on how to work towards agreement with those on the other side of this issue?

 

[Lemon law]

I would not look at that reluctance to talk totally negatively---its shows their hearts are in the right place.

But you have to understand that Israel was largely founded by European jews with largely the same judio-christian ethics to be found in USA. And certainly while not perfect, this group
was far fairer minded in regard to a settlement with the Palistinians. What has now turned that balance is a large influx of Arab jews--and Northern Russian jews who are far less tolerant than the European jew----that and the fact that land is getting scares means settler and settler parties are far more tempted to grab lands intended under the Oslo agreements as land to be surrendered in a future land for peace deal.---net effect---Isreal has moved to the right and the more tolerant European jew holds less political clout.

But another telling thing---in those heady days when peace looked possible---and Arafat was on the verge of signing---but balking at the last minute on the right to return---many of the liberal jews were talking to some of the Palistinians---and found out---to their horror---that despite being more tolerant than their fellows---that the Palistinians were more democratic and hated all Israelies equally.----and the peace process seems to have gone to hell from there.--------naturally I expect to get attacked by some on this latter point---and will only say
that what I post is at best semi-valid.

But when your jewish neighbor is conflicted---and sees--like many of us--that both sides are wrong---and seem headed for a train wreck---understand they are puzzled too. In the end, their more tolerant weight may yet tip the balance.

 

[WHAMPOM]

I wish the militants in Israel would read their own history and remember that oppression only strenghtens the will of the oppressed. Jewish-Nazi is no longer an oxymoran when they use the same tactics to attain a goal.

 

[Doboji]

Originally posted by: WHAMPOM
I wish the militants in Israel would read their own history and remember that oppression only strenghtens the will of the oppressed. Jewish-Nazi is no longer an oxymoran when they use the same tactics to attain a goal.

Any idiot who would use the term "jewish-nazi" needs to go back and learn history, reread what a "nazi" is, and more importantly what the Nazis did. There is absolutely no comparison between jews and nazis. My guess is you're one of those parotting turds, who is perfectly happy to throw around shock mantra just to piss off the people you ignorantly argue with.

-Max

 

[Skyclad1uhm1]

Originally posted by: Doboji

Originally posted by: WHAMPOM
I wish the militants in Israel would read their own history and remember that oppression only strenghtens the will of the oppressed. Jewish-Nazi is no longer an oxymoran when they use the same tactics to attain a goal.

Any idiot who would use the term "jewish-nazi" needs to go back and learn history, reread what a "nazi" is, and more importantly what the Nazis did. There is absolutely no comparison between jews and nazis. My guess is you're one of those parotting turds, who is perfectly happy to throw around shock mantra just to piss off the people you ignorantly argue with.

-Max

Just like anyone bombing Israeli civilians should be called a terrorist, while Israelis killing civilians are soldiers eh? The opposite side is evil, and everything your side does is good.

The Israeli government indeed does not copy everything from the nazis, but they copy enough methods from the SS to at least make a comparison reasonable. That the Jews in WW II did not have the means to fight back when put in ghettos, were getting locked up or getting killed for no other reason than for being Jewish doesn't mean they can now do exactly the same to Palestinians what the Nazis did to their ancestors (if their family ever suffered from Nazis that is, a lot of those living in Israel today came from Russia, the UK or the US) without them fighting back. Note that I do not have anything whatsoever against Jews, but I do have something against the Israeli government. And that is not the same, even if some people claim it is.

 

[International Machine Consortium]

Originally posted by: Doboji

Originally posted by: WHAMPOM
I wish the militants in Israel would read their own history and remember that oppression only strenghtens the will of the oppressed. Jewish-Nazi is no longer an oxymoran when they use the same tactics to attain a goal.

Any idiot who would use the term "jewish-nazi" needs to go back and learn history, reread what a "nazi" is, and more importantly what the Nazis did. There is absolutely no comparison between jews and nazis. My guess is you're one of those parotting turds, who is perfectly happy to throw around shock mantra just to piss off the people you ignorantly argue with.

-Max

Can you use actual reasoning to back up your position or do you always resort to personal attacks?

 

[linkgoron]

Is this gonna be followed with an article:

How to talk with your Muslim friends about suicide bombers and terrorists?

 

[kylebisme]

Nah, that takes the subject to a far more direct issue than homelands making it a much tougher issue to tackle. Besides, then we'd also need another article about how to talk with your Jewish friends about settler gangs and the IDF.

 

[Doboji]

Originally posted by: International Machine Consortium

Originally posted by: Doboji

Originally posted by: WHAMPOM
I wish the militants in Israel would read their own history and remember that oppression only strenghtens the will of the oppressed. Jewish-Nazi is no longer an oxymoran when they use the same tactics to attain a goal.

Any idiot who would use the term "jewish-nazi" needs to go back and learn history, reread what a "nazi" is, and more importantly what the Nazis did. There is absolutely no comparison between jews and nazis. My guess is you're one of those parotting turds, who is perfectly happy to throw around shock mantra just to piss off the people you ignorantly argue with.

-Max

Can you use actual reasoning to back up your position or do you always resort to personal attacks?

Some select dates from here.

Only a complete and utter moron could compare Israel to the Nazis... you clearly have absolutely no concept of what happened during the holocaust... or there's no way in hell you could make this comparison.

Sept 27/28 1941 - 23,000 Jews killed at Kamenets-Podolsk, in the Ukraine.
In Oct 1941 - 35,000 Jews from Odessa shot.
In Nov 1941 - SS Einsatzgruppe B reports a tally of 45,476 Jews killed
Jan 31, 1942 - SS Einsatzgruppe A reports a tally of 229,052 Jews killed.
June 5, 1942 - SS report 97,000 persons have been "processed" in mobile gas vans.
In Nov 1942 - The mass killing of 170,000 Jews in the area of Bialystok.
In Dec 1942 - Exterminations at Belzec cease after an estimated 600,000 Jews have been murdered. The camp is then dismantled, plowed over and planted.
Dec 28, 1942 - Sterilization experiments on women at Birkenau begin.
Jan 29, 1943 - Nazis order all Gypsies arrested and sent to extermination camps.
In Aug 1943 - Exterminations cease at Treblinka, after an estimated 870,000 deaths.
Nov 3, 1943 - Nazis carry out Operation Harvest Festival in occupied Poland, killing 42,000 Jews.

 

[Doboji]

Originally posted by: Skyclad1uhm1

Originally posted by: Doboji

Originally posted by: WHAMPOM
I wish the militants in Israel would read their own history and remember that oppression only strenghtens the will of the oppressed. Jewish-Nazi is no longer an oxymoran when they use the same tactics to attain a goal.

Any idiot who would use the term "jewish-nazi" needs to go back and learn history, reread what a "nazi" is, and more importantly what the Nazis did. There is absolutely no comparison between jews and nazis. My guess is you're one of those parotting turds, who is perfectly happy to throw around shock mantra just to piss off the people you ignorantly argue with.

-Max

Just like anyone bombing Israeli civilians should be called a terrorist, while Israelis killing civilians are soldiers eh? The opposite side is evil, and everything your side does is good.

The Israeli government indeed does not copy everything from the nazis, but they copy enough methods from the SS to at least make a comparison reasonable. That the Jews in WW II did not have the means to fight back when put in ghettos, were getting locked up or getting killed for no other reason than for being Jewish doesn't mean they can now do exactly the same to Palestinians what the Nazis did to their ancestors (if their family ever suffered from Nazis that is, a lot of those living in Israel today came from Russia, the UK or the US) without them fighting back. Note that I do not have anything whatsoever against Jews, but I do have something against the Israeli government. And that is not the same, even if some people claim it is.

On October 5, 1942, by accident, Hermann Graebe, a German engineer and manager of a German construction firm in the Ukraine, and his foreman, came upon an Einsatz execution squad killing Jews from the small town of Dubno in the Ukraine. He gave the following eyewitness account:

"My foreman and I went directly to the pits. Nobody bothered us. Now I heard rifle shots in quick succession from behind one of the earth mounds. The people who had got off the trucks - men, women and children of all ages - had to undress upon the order of an SS man who carried a riding or dog whip. They had to put down their clothes in fixed places, sorted according to shoes, top clothing and undergarments. I saw heaps of shoes of about 800 to 1000 pairs, great piles of under-linen and clothing. Without screaming or weeping these people undressed, stood around in family groups, kissed each other, said farewells, and waited for a sign from another SS man, who stood near the pit, also with a whip in his hand. During the fifteen minutes I stood near, I heard no complaint or plea for mercy. I watched a family of about eight persons, a man and a woman both of about fifty, with their children of about twenty to twenty-four, and two grown-up daughters about twenty-eight or twenty-nine. An old woman with snow white hair was holding a one year old child in her arms and singing to it and tickling it. The child was cooing with delight. The parents were looking on with tears in their eyes. The father was holding the hand of a boy about ten years old and speaking to him softly; the boy was fighting his tears. The father pointed to the sky, stroked his head and seemed to explain something to him. At that moment the SS man at the pit started shouting something to his comrade. The latter counted off about twenty persons and instructed them to go behind the earth mound. Among them was the family I have just mentioned. I well remember a girl, slim with black hair, who, as she passed me, pointed to herself and said, "twenty-three years old." I walked around the mound and found myself confronted by a tremendous grave. People were closely wedged together and lying on top of each other so that only their heads were visible. Nearly all had blood running over their shoulders from their heads. Some of the people shot were still moving. Some were lifting their arms and turning their heads to show that they were still alive. The pit was nearly two-thirds full. I estimated that it already contained about a thousand people. I looked for the man who did the shooting. He was an SS man, who sat at the edge of the narrow end of the pit, his feet dangling into the pit. He had a tommy-gun on his knees and was smoking a cigarette. The people, completely naked, went down some steps which were cut in the clay wall of the pit and clambered over the heads of the people lying there to the place to which the SS man directed them. They lay down in front of the dead or wounded people; some caressed those who were still alive and spoke to them in a low voice. Then I heard a series of shots. I looked into the pit and saw that the bodies were twitching or the heads lying already motionless on top of the bodies that lay beneath them. Blood was running from their necks. The next batch was approaching already. They went down into the pit, lined themselves up against the previous victims and were shot."

 

[Trianon]

Originally posted by: Doboji
On October 5, 1942, by accident, Hermann Graebe, a German engineer and manager of a German construction firm in the Ukraine, and his foreman, came upon an Einsatz execution squad killing Jews from the small town of Dubno in the Ukraine. He gave the following eyewitness account:

"My foreman and I went directly to the pits. Nobody bothered us. Now I heard rifle shots in quick succession from behind one of the earth mounds. The people who had got off the trucks - men, women and children of all ages - had to undress upon the order of an SS man who carried a riding or dog whip. They had to put down their clothes in fixed places, sorted according to shoes, top clothing and undergarments. I saw heaps of shoes of about 800 to 1000 pairs, great piles of under-linen and clothing. Without screaming or weeping these people undressed, stood around in family groups, kissed each other, said farewells, and waited for a sign from another SS man, who stood near the pit, also with a whip in his hand. During the fifteen minutes I stood near, I heard no complaint or plea for mercy. I watched a family of about eight persons, a man and a woman both of about fifty, with their children of about twenty to twenty-four, and two grown-up daughters about twenty-eight or twenty-nine. An old woman with snow white hair was holding a one year old child in her arms and singing to it and tickling it. The child was cooing with delight. The parents were looking on with tears in their eyes. The father was holding the hand of a boy about ten years old and speaking to him softly; the boy was fighting his tears. The father pointed to the sky, stroked his head and seemed to explain something to him. At that moment the SS man at the pit started shouting something to his comrade. The latter counted off about twenty persons and instructed them to go behind the earth mound. Among them was the family I have just mentioned. I well remember a girl, slim with black hair, who, as she passed me, pointed to herself and said, "twenty-three years old." I walked around the mound and found myself confronted by a tremendous grave. People were closely wedged together and lying on top of each other so that only their heads were visible. Nearly all had blood running over their shoulders from their heads. Some of the people shot were still moving. Some were lifting their arms and turning their heads to show that they were still alive. The pit was nearly two-thirds full. I estimated that it already contained about a thousand people. I looked for the man who did the shooting. He was an SS man, who sat at the edge of the narrow end of the pit, his feet dangling into the pit. He had a tommy-gun on his knees and was smoking a cigarette. The people, completely naked, went down some steps which were cut in the clay wall of the pit and clambered over the heads of the people lying there to the place to which the SS man directed them. They lay down in front of the dead or wounded people; some caressed those who were still alive and spoke to them in a low voice. Then I heard a series of shots. I looked into the pit and saw that the bodies were twitching or the heads lying already motionless on top of the bodies that lay beneath them. Blood was running from their necks. The next batch was approaching already. They went down into the pit, lined themselves up against the previous victims and were shot."

Very gruesome. I wonder why people were letting these few henchmen slaughter them like that. I would at least try to put up a fight...

 

[jpeyton]

Awww, sob stories from 60 years ago. Touching. Really.

We're supposed to learn from our past, not embrace it.

 

[linkgoron]

Originally posted by: jpeyton
Awww, sob stories from 60 years ago. Touching. Really.

We're supposed to learn from our past, not embrace it.

Did you see Israel kill hunderds of thousand Lebanese in a month?

 

[kylebisme]

Are you suggesting that is what it would take before you considered there to be any problem?

 

[linkgoron]

Originally posted by: TheSnowman
Are you suggesting that is what it would take before you considered there to be any problem?

No, not at all, just saying that the comparison to Nazis is not even close to being true.

 

[kylebisme]

Even Seinfeld's "Soup Nazi" was true. True in an excessively hyperbolic sense that is, but there is truth in such means of comparison all the same. However, I can't help but doubt that jpeyton read the article as comments like his are exactly what Professor Chernus is waring against.

 

[Doboji]

Originally posted by: jpeyton
Awww, sob stories from 60 years ago. Touching. Really.

We're supposed to learn from our past, not embrace it.

Heh... sob stories eh?

The point is, you better understand who and what the nazis are before you go around comparing ANYTHING to them.

 

[imported_dna]

Since somebody had to bring up the Israeli-Nazi comparison, I'm compelled to post this link for a youtube video regarding the Mufti of Jerusalem and Hitler.

Also, I looked up some pictures of the benevolent Hezbollah, and how they help the little kids, look at the pictures here, and here. This movie also has some interesting still photos.

I think we know who took a page from the Nazi playbook.

P.S.
Not directly related to Nazi, but also interesting.