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How to promote a secular West.

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whm1974 said:
Personally I rather scam the Religious Far Right out of money and use that to fund secular causes in order to undermine their plans for turning the US into a Theocracy.
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If I was so devious inclined.. The way I would go around that would be to put surveillance on one of those fake ass internet/tv/jet owning priests.. Mind you it doesnt have to be legal.. you just know they are up to some depraved sexual shit.. And then blackmail the shit out of him...
 
Noah Abrams said:
In my opinion, the sickness of the west partly if not mainly lies in its complete secular nature. It needs spirituality
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"Kill them all, let God sort them out!" is a spiritual tenet. You could get what you wish for, maybe a mob burning your house down for your improper beliefs?
Read your History.
 
WHAMPOM said:
"Kill them all, let God sort them out!" is a spiritual tenet. You could get what you wish for, maybe a mob burning your house down for your improper beliefs?
Read your History.
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It is a belief system, not a spiritual tenet. And it doesn't take supposedly improper beliefs for people to get killed on a mass scale. Wearing glasses will do too. That is what the Pol Pot regime did, in case you were wondering. Yes, I'd definitely suggest reading just the 20th century history.
 
Moonbeam said:
This is a side issue. Atheism and secularism are totally different things. Secularism is a form of government in which the right to believe or not believe are protected. It's not a belief, its a legal structure codified in the Constitution.

Perhaps this might help you but be careful. It might sound like something I could say and well, you know, I am just crazy and doubtless have evil in my heart:

https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/spiritual-wisdom-secular-times/201103/what-is-spirituality
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I love you Moonbeam, but i still find it strange that some of the people posting in here feel so strongly about their Atheism that they attempt to convert people to their belief system............ forcefully if needs be.
 
whm1974 said:
Personally I rather scam the Religious Far Right out of money and use that to fund secular causes in order to undermine their plans for turning the US into a Theocracy.
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It's not scamming if they want to part with their money for imaginary benefits. There is no requirement that you actually believe that horse shit to sell it to them 🙂
 
imported_tajmahal said:
I love you Moonbeam, but i still find it strange that some of the people posting in here feel so strongly about their Atheism that they attempt to convert people to their belief system............ forcefully if needs be.
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Give us an example of someone here wanting to forcefully convert theists to Atheism? And while you at it, explain how Atheism is a belief system as well.
 
senseamp said:
It's not scamming if they want to part with their money for imaginary benefits. There is no requirement that you actually believe that horse shit to sell it to them 🙂
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To make doing such actions ethical, I will have to figured out how to scam the con-men themselves.
 
senseamp said:
Religion is good business. Selling an imaginary product for real money. Tax Free. Can't beat that. I am thinking of maybe doing some religious startup when I retire. Especially now that it looks like churches will be funneling tax deductible political spending. Gotta get a cut of that dough.
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Imaginary products are big right now, bitcoin comes to mind.
 
Greenman said:
Imaginary products are big right now, bitcoin comes to mind.
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Odd, given the apples to asteroids comparison. Bitcoin isn't imaginary, and has actual, tangible (albeit greatly fluctuating) value. I'm not fan of bitcoin, but I've seen it accepted for goods and services before. I suspect you wouldn't get as far waving your bible knowledge at people.
 
kage69 said:
Odd, given the apples to asteroids comparison. Bitcoin isn't imaginary, and has actual, tangible (albeit greatly fluctuating) value. I'm not fan of bitcoin, but I've seen it accepted for goods and services before. I suspect you wouldn't get as far waving your bible knowledge at people.
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I don't have any bible knowledge, so it wouldn't get me very far under any circumstances.
 
kage69 said:
Well your opinion is uninformed then, at the least.

Secular societies fare better across the board compared to religious societies. People have long tried to connect the ills of society to a lack of religion and too much secularism, but actually the reverse is true. This is the case with American states as well as foreign countries. Sorry.
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What does spirituality have to do with religion. I find it frankly amazing that such things as awe and wonder and curiosity are not seen as having their roots in the spiritual nature of man. You are discounting the existence of one thing, it seems to me, because you don't like how something you fear has the same origin. Your whole emotional rejection and fear of the spiritual is the result of the fact that you hold somethings to be sacred. Can you consider the possibility that to reject the bad in favor of the good IS spirituality You wouldn't care otherwise, I think. You are advocating a view in which you have faith based on the evidence you have seen. The problem I see is that the evidence you have seen may not comport with the experience of others and their right to believe or argue for their beliefs are just as important. You may be shy in the department of 3. pluralism and 4. education. You may have observed that people have a tendency to think what they know is all that anybody knows. This is why I stress the importance of not knowing things.
 
kage69 said:
How about education, civil rights and funding for science for starters? You understand how the evangelical lobby of the GOP has undermined those, yes?
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And you think Republicans will stand up for these things? When did you plan on making this happen? Will you wait for a Democrat President and a majority in the house and Senate? What's the payoff for a secular society? I'm talking cash not health and happiness because I've never met a politician who by their actions cared more about people than money.
 
Moonbeam said:
What does spirituality have to do with religion. I find it frankly amazing that such things as awe and wonder and curiosity are not seen as having their roots in the spiritual nature of man. You are discounting the existence of one thing, it seems to me, because you don't like how something you fear has the same origin. Your whole emotional rejection and fear of the spiritual is the result of the fact that you hold somethings to be sacred. Can you consider the possibility that to reject the bad in favor of the good IS spirituality You wouldn't care otherwise, I think. You are advocating a view in which you have faith based on the evidence you have seen. The problem I see is that the evidence you have seen may not comport with the experience of others and their right to believe or argue for their beliefs are just as important. You may be shy in the department of 3. pluralism and 4. education. You may have observed that people have a tendency to think what they know is all that anybody knows. This is why I stress the importance of not knowing things.
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How about actually learning something instead of willfully not knowing stuff? Being aware that one doesn't know everything is a very far cry from not knowing anything at all.
 
Moonbeam said:
Given the premise that a secular society is vital for a culture that holds many and various religious beliefs, that it is the only way to prevent dominance of some particular state religion, what are the conditions that promote and further such belief. How are we to increase the belief in secularism practiced by Western society. What social factors promote such secular faith.

How about these as vital factors as opposed to the ravings of Atheists:

1. Existential security (you have enough money and food)

2. Personal freedom (you’re free to choose whether to believe or not)

3. Pluralism (you have a welcoming attitude to diversity)

4. Education (you’ve got some training in the sciences and humanities).

If even one of these factors is absent, the whole process of the secularization of a society slows down.

But if you are a Russian or a Republican you will know what to attack in a society to destroy it from within. If you know the mechanical nature of human behavior in detail you know how to destroy secularism if you see it as a threat.
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A secular society is not vital. A secular government is.
 
kage69 said:
That's wasn't my point and you know it. Being obtuse won't get you very far either.
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Actually, I took it as you speaking to me personally. My bad.
Back on your point, pretty much every televangelist does very well with nothing but bible knowledge and a bit of larceny in his heart.
In the broader sense, selling pretty much anything has way more to do with intangibles than facts. This is why diamonds are so expensive when their only real use is in cutting tools. The easy sell is status. Convince your mark that what you're selling is what everyone else wants and you'll get rich. If what you're selling is cheap and common, create a shortage and cash in. Diamonds, trading cards, high end watches, expensive cars, perfume, and high end hand bags, all of those things are symbols designed to show others that we have something they can't have, so people will pay through the nose for them. Peddling religion is no different, it's just that the salesmen needs a blacker heart.
 
MagnusTheBrewer said:
And you think Republicans will stand up for these things? When did you plan on making this happen? Will you wait for a Democrat President and a majority in the house and Senate? What's the payoff for a secular society? I'm talking cash not health and happiness because I've never met a politician who by their actions cared more about people than money.
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MagnusTheBrewer said:
Hair splitting. How do you have one without the other? Who leads and enforces?
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The people.
 
whm1974 said:
How about actually learning something instead of willfully not knowing stuff? Being aware that one doesn't know everything is a very far cry from not knowing anything at all.
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Because only a titanic fool who thinks he knows things could make the following statement:
whm1974 said:
How ,is Pornography realistically a "destructive poisoning of the environment?" As long as it done by consenting adults, there is nothing wrong with it.
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Who are you, an emotionally cut off zombie who can get his rocks off only when he can turn the object of his lust into a thing? When I see porn I see beautiful children whose innocence and love of life have been replaced by deep abuse and desperate emotional pain, a tortured need to survive, children who struggle mightily to pretend they maintain dignity via the pretense they are desirable to somebody. I think you need to claim they have choice so that you don't have to notice the hidden reality of what you consume in lust. What happened to your capacity to feel organic shame? Pornography is for the poisoned of the environment, those who know no real love and believe their condition to be otherwise. You can save your breath replying. You're full of shit and you will just add to prove it.
.
 
whm1974 said:
The people.
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The point of this thread is that in order to have a people who can lead there are conditions that must be met, the ones in the OP. Instead of promoting freedom of religion you are arguing in favor of freedom from it in the form of wanting it to go away for 'reasons', reasons that are fundamentally religious in nature. You are the holder of the scales of what is good and what is evil. Fine by me so long as none of your stupidity starts to get pushed as law.
 
Moonbeam said:
Because only a titanic fool who thinks he knows things could make the following statement:


Who are you, an emotionally cut off zombie who can get his rocks off only when he can turn the object of his lust into a thing? When I see porn I see beautiful children whose innocence and love of life have been replaced by deep abuse and desperate emotional pain, a tortured need to survive, children who struggle mightily to pretend they maintain dignity via the pretense they are desirable to somebody. I think you need to claim they have choice so that you don't have to notice the hidden reality of what you consume in lust. What happened to your capacity to feel organic shame? Pornography is for the poisoned of the environment, those who know no real love and believe their condition to be otherwise. You can save your breath replying. You're full of shit and you will just add to prove it.
.
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I do not and will not condone child pornography or young children looking at it. I'm talking about consenting adults here. And what is immoral about viewing adult pornography or even just looking at pictures of naked people? You are just making empty assertions without any evidence.

Moonbeam said:
The point of this thread is that in order to have a people who can lead there are conditions that must be met, the ones in the OP. Instead of promoting freedom of religion you are arguing in favor of freedom from it in the form of wanting it to go away for 'reasons', reasons that are fundamentally religious in nature. You are the holder of the scales of what is good and what is evil. Fine by me so long as none of your stupidity starts to get pushed as law.
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Freedom of Religion also includes Freedom from Religion as well. This means I'm free not to believe or even respect other people beliefs. And besides bad and dangerous ideals and beliefs, religious or otherwise should be challenged.
 
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