How to promote a secular West.

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Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
72,425
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In what way am I just as dangerous as any religious fanatic? I don't demand that other people agree with me about any subject and neither do I call for the suppression of civil and human rights of those who disagree with me either.
As I have said, there is one truth that stands at the root of human aspiration for the religious and the non-religious alike and that truth is found more often via religion than via doubt, and the fact that because the realization of that truth confers the capacity for true morality, love of the good rather than fear of evil, your contempt for faith turns out to be a kind of evil. Basically, while you will allow the opinions of the religious to not be suppressed, that is your basic wish. So you are not welcoming to 2. Personal freedom (you’re free to choose whether to believe or not) and you are definitely displaying 3. Pluralism (you have a welcoming attitude to diversity) That makes you a drag on how secularism will proceed in our society.

The simple fact is that people who have real faith do not suffer and people who do not suffer do not want others to either. And you don't need to have religious faith to believe and have faith in that.
 

realibrad

Lifer
Oct 18, 2013
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Require all Schools, public and private to have mandatory Critical Thinking classes.

Seems fine. Should help.

Set up decent Social Safety nets so people can be sure that their basic needs can be met.

Tricky to establish the boundaries, but, I think its doable with a net positive.

Stronger Laws against Con men and their schemes.

This is highly subjective. I don't think you want to leave that broad power with the state. Anyone who spoke against the morality of the church was called a con man. If the power structure gets corrupted, you would be in big trouble.

Strong education of science.

No problem here.

Have measures in place to keep the 1% from having almost all the wealth.

No. Very bad idea. Not because the concentration of wealth is a good thing. You are free to give your money to anyone in a free market. If those people are getting rich because of free transactions that is fine. If they are getting money from you outside of free trade then stop it, but don't stop free markets.
 

Atreus21

Lifer
Aug 21, 2007
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The issue I have with religion and ideologies is not that they attack my beliefs, but whither or not they are they match the reality we live in and how they affect our survival and well-being. Evidence based reasoning should be used to inform our acceptance if something is true or not. Not just merely believing things on someone's say so.

Reason is itself a matter of faith. It is an act of faith to assert that our thoughts have any relation to reality at all.
 

whm1974

Diamond Member
Jul 24, 2016
9,460
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No. Very bad idea. Not because the concentration of wealth is a good thing. You are free to give your money to anyone in a free market. If those people are getting rich because of free transactions that is fine. If they are getting money from you outside of free trade then stop it, but don't stop free markets.
It is not a free market if it is controlled by the 1% now is it? I don't have a problem with folks who earned their wealth being rich.
 

woolfe9998

Lifer
Apr 8, 2013
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No. Very bad idea. Not because the concentration of wealth is a good thing. You are free to give your money to anyone in a free market. If those people are getting rich because of free transactions that is fine. If they are getting money from you outside of free trade then stop it, but don't stop free markets.

So I take it then you are opposed to, for example, a progressive income tax?
 

realibrad

Lifer
Oct 18, 2013
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It is not a free market if it is controlled by the 1% now is it? I don't have a problem with folks who earned their wealth being rich.

Depends on what you mean by controlled. Do you want equality of opportunity or equality of outcome?

As we become globalized, those frictions that used to create local wealth now create global wealth. You are no longer competing against the guy in the same city, or state, or even country. You are not competing against the entire planet. So, if you have the best product and you can provide enough of that production, you will get all of the wealth from that.

So it depends on how you think they got to the 1%. But, if that is true, then its not really the 1% that are the problem, but those that cheat to get there.
 

realibrad

Lifer
Oct 18, 2013
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So I take it then you are opposed to, for example, a progressive income tax?

Short answer is no, but that does not really answer the question I think you want to get at.

You are trying to ask me if I think the rich should have to pay more as a % of their income and or wealth no?
 

woolfe9998

Lifer
Apr 8, 2013
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Short answer is no, but that does not really answer the question I think you want to get at.

You are trying to ask me if I think the rich should have to pay more as a % of their income and or wealth no?

That's what a progressive income tax does, yes. So you answered the question as no, you aren't opposed to it. Which is a tad confusing, since in response to whm's notion that we should

Have measures in place to keep the 1% from having almost all the wealth.

You basically answered that with "no way."
 

realibrad

Lifer
Oct 18, 2013
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That's what a progressive income tax does, yes. So you answered the question as no, you aren't opposed to it. Which is a tad confusing, since in response to whm's notion that we should



You basically answered that with "no way."

No, and its strange that you are misunderstanding this so badly.

We have a progressive tax system in almost all of the west where the 1% reside. If a progressive tax system was the remedy to this, they why is the 1% so far ahead?

Pro tip, a progressive tax system is not the solution and you want to ask a different question. Think on it and it should become apparent what it is that you are getting at.
 

woolfe9998

Lifer
Apr 8, 2013
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No, and its strange that you are misunderstanding this so badly.

We have a progressive tax system in almost all of the west where the 1% reside. If a progressive tax system was the remedy to this, they why is the 1% so far ahead?

Because progressive income tax isn't "the remedy." I never said it was. It's frankly bizarre that you just constructed an argument that progressive income tax would solve the entire unequal wealth problem, ascribed it to me, then proceeded to argue against it. That's elevating straw mannery to fine art.

Pro tip, a progressive tax system is not the solution and you want to ask a different question. Think on it and it should become apparent what it is that you are getting at.

There is no one solution to a problem which is quantitative and cumulative in nature. We have no idea how much worse it would be without progressive taxation, but quite clearly other policies are needed.

I was just addressing the position you took in response to whm's post, which was to suggest that we should have no measures in place at all, that we should simply leave it to the free market. Seems odd that you then said you didn't oppose a progressive income tax, because that is one policy meant to address that problem.
 

woolfe9998

Lifer
Apr 8, 2013
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Not to speak out of turn, but I am. I think everyone should pay an equal percentage of their income in taxes.

Out of curiosity, given the widening wealth gap that we are seeing, what do you think would happen to that gap if we were to implement this flat tax?
 

realibrad

Lifer
Oct 18, 2013
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Because progressive income tax isn't "the remedy." I never said it was. It's frankly bizarre that you just constructed an argument that progressive income tax would solve the entire unequal wealth problem, ascribed it to me, then proceeded to argue against it. That's elevating straw mannery to fine art.

This is what happens when you forget what we were talking about. I responded to a post where it was suggested keeping the majority of the wealth from the 1% would be a bad thing. You were the one that connected what he said to a progressive tax system. Below is the proof of this.

"That's what a progressive income tax does, yes. So you answered the question as no, you aren't opposed to it. Which is a tad confusing, since in response to whm's notion that we should"

You see that? Weird right? Whm never said anything about a progressive tax system. You assumed that would be the way of accomplishing what he said, which was...

"Have measures in place to keep the 1% from having almost all the wealth."

There is no one solution to a problem which is quantitative and cumulative in nature. We have no idea how much worse it would be without progressive taxation, but quite clearly other policies are needed.

Horrible circular logic. People are dying because of ghosts in their blood. If we did not drain their blood even more would die. We cant imagine how much worse it would be if we did not drain their blood to get the ghosts out!

I was just addressing the position you took in response to whm's post, which was to suggest that we should have no measures in place at all, that we should simply leave it to the free market. Seems odd that you then said you didn't oppose a progressive income tax, because that is one policy meant to address that problem.

Again, this is what happens when you forget. See what I said...

"If they are getting money from you outside of free trade then stop it, but don't stop free markets."
 

woolfe9998

Lifer
Apr 8, 2013
16,188
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This is what happens when you forget what we were talking about. I responded to a post where it was suggested keeping the majority of the wealth from the 1% would be a bad thing. You were the one that connected what he said to a progressive tax system. Below is the proof of this.

I know exactly what was written by everyone involved. What he said was we should "Have measures in place to keep the 1% from having almost all the wealth." That's an exact quote. A progressive income tax is one such measure. When you said "no" in response to his statement, you implicitly rejected the notion of a progressive income tax along with any other measures that would reduce income inequality.

"That's what a progressive income tax does, yes. So you answered the question as no, you aren't opposed to it. Which is a tad confusing, since in response to whm's notion that we should"

You see that? Weird right? Whm never said anything about a progressive tax system. You assumed that would be the way of accomplishing what he said, which was...

Right, he didn't mention a progressive income tax or any other specific policies. He was stating as a general proposition that he favored policies to reduce unequal wealth distribution. By rejecting his statement without qualification, that means you oppose all such measures. Presumably, that would include a progressive income tax. Though curiously, you then said you weren't opposed to it.

Horrible circular logic. People are dying because of ghosts in their blood. If we did not drain their blood even more would die. We cant imagine how much worse it would be if we did not drain their blood to get the ghosts out!

I'm not the one engaging in horrible logic here. Your analogy is a false one. Here's a better one: we're administrators of a high school which has a program to teach students how to do well on standardized tests. Yet our students have scores which are below the national average. According to your logic, that means the program doesn't work at all and we're better off saving the cost and doing away with it. And when our average scores sink from 10% below the average to 20% below the average, we'll have your "logic" to thank for it.

When a problem is quantitative, like test scores and wealth distribution which fall along a continuum, a measure can help with the problem without "solving" the problem entirely. Indeed, the solution might to be have multiple measures, each of which is partially effective.

I said we don't know how much worse it would be without progressive taxation, but we do know it will be worse. Here's why: prior to the Reagan era, we had a much more progressive tax code than we do now. Reagan flattened out the tax rates. And what has happened since Reagan? Wealth distribution has become more unequal. Which suggests that flattening the rates entirely as Atreus wants to do would just continue to make it worse.

Again, this is what happens when you forget. See what I said...

"If they are getting money from you outside of free trade then stop it, but don't stop free markets."

Right, I could see that you thought you were arguing against something extreme like a Communist system, but he never suggested anything like that. He said only that he supported measures to reduce wealth inequality. We have many such measures in place right now, including progressive taxation, and every form of social safety net we employ. Clearly, no one of them, or in fact all of them combined, are sufficient. But that is 100% because of the GOP.
 

realibrad

Lifer
Oct 18, 2013
12,337
898
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I know exactly what was written by everyone involved. What he said was we should "Have measures in place to keep the 1% from having almost all the wealth." That's an exact quote. A progressive income tax is one such measure. When you said "no" in response to his statement, you implicitly rejected the notion of a progressive income tax along with any other measures that would reduce income inequality.



Right, he didn't mention a progressive income tax or any other specific policies. He was stating as a general proposition that he favored policies to reduce unequal wealth distribution. By rejecting his statement without qualification, that means you oppose all such measures. Presumably, that would include a progressive income tax. Though curiously, you then said you weren't opposed to it.



I'm not the one engaging in horrible logic here. Your analogy is a false one. Here's a better one: we're administrators of a high school which has a program to teach students how to do well on standardized tests. Yet our students have scores which are below the national average. According to your logic, that means the program doesn't work at all and we're better off saving the cost and doing away with it. And when our average scores sink from 10% below the average to 20% below the average, we'll have your "logic" to thank for it.

When a problem is quantitative, like test scores and wealth distribution which fall along a continuum, a measure can help with the problem without "solving" the problem entirely. Indeed, the solution might to be have multiple measures, each of which is partially effective.

I said we don't know how much worse it would be without progressive taxation, but we do know it will be worse. Here's why: prior to the Reagan era, we had a much more progressive tax code than we do now. Reagan flattened out the tax rates. And what has happened since Reagan? Wealth distribution has become more unequal. Which suggests that flattening the rates entirely as Atreus wants to do would just continue to make it worse.



Right, I could see that you thought you were arguing against something extreme like a Communist system, but he never suggested anything like that. He said only that he supported measures to reduce wealth inequality. We have many such measures in place right now, including progressive taxation, and every form of social safety net we employ. Clearly, no one of them, or in fact all of them combined, are sufficient. But that is 100% because of the GOP.

Im going to stop you right there. I read the first section and stopped.

He said to stop the 1% from having most of the wealth. You then connected a progressive tax system as a way to rectify that. I said we already have that and yet here we are. I also explained how the top 1% got to control so much of the wealth. If you cant address the logical conclusion, then Ill pass.
 

Atreus21

Lifer
Aug 21, 2007
12,007
572
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Out of curiosity, given the widening wealth gap that we are seeing, what do you think would happen to that gap if we were to implement this flat tax?

Presumably it would get worse. But that's acceptable to me - justice isn't made less just by the fact that it may be costly to enforce.

People ought to be taxed on an equal basis. We ought not make arbitrary levels of taxation for people who meet arbitrary criteria of wealth or poverty.
 

woolfe9998

Lifer
Apr 8, 2013
16,188
14,091
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Presumably it would get worse. But that's acceptable to me - justice isn't made less just by the fact that it may be costly to enforce.

People ought to be taxed on an equal basis. We ought not make arbitrary levels of taxation for people who meet arbitrary criteria of wealth or poverty.

So we should be more concerned about tax policies which are "unjust" to millionaires and billionaires than to the welfare of ordinary working people?

That was quite honest of you.
 

woolfe9998

Lifer
Apr 8, 2013
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Im going to stop you right there. I read the first section and stopped.

He said to stop the 1% from having most of the wealth. You then connected a progressive tax system as a way to rectify that. I said we already have that and yet here we are. I also explained how the top 1% got to control so much of the wealth. If you cant address the logical conclusion, then Ill pass.

Not reading an entire reply is arguing in bad faith. It's entirely fair for me to assume that you simply have no logical response.
 

SMOGZINN

Lifer
Jun 17, 2005
14,202
4,401
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The problem is that money has gravity. The more money you have in one place the more money gets pulled into it and at some point, defined by each society and the systems they have in place, that monetary gravity becomes inescapable. The 1% essentially becomes a black hole of money where all economic principles no longer apply. We are approaching that economic event horizon, and if we don't do something it will destroy our economy.
 

realibrad

Lifer
Oct 18, 2013
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Not reading an entire reply is arguing in bad faith. It's entirely fair for me to assume that you simply have no logical response.

Its not bad faith if I'm telling you that I did it and letting you know that I'm stopping. Bad faith would be pretending to have read it and replying as if I had.
 

woolfe9998

Lifer
Apr 8, 2013
16,188
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Its not bad faith if I'm telling you that I did it and letting you know that I'm stopping. Bad faith would be pretending to have read it and replying as if I had.

You continued making your argument though, without reading what I had written. That's why it's bad faith.

If you don't want to read a post, it's probably best that you not reply and let it go at that.
 

realibrad

Lifer
Oct 18, 2013
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You continued making your argument though, without reading what I had written. That's why it's bad faith.

If you don't want to read a post, it's probably best that you not reply and let it go at that.

No, I did not. I addressed what I had read, and nothing more.
 

woolfe9998

Lifer
Apr 8, 2013
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No, I did not. I addressed what I had read, and nothing more.

Selectively replying to certain points and ignoring the rest is bad faith. You don't even know that the argument you made isn't addressed already in the portion you didn't read.

I've got a friend who likes to debate politics with me by e-mail and he does the same thing. I'll make six points and he'll pick out one point and respond to that, apparently ignoring the rest. He only argues a point he feels he can win. Does it every single time. I finally told him I was done debating him until he curtails his tendency to prop up his own denial of reality by pretending that almost all the arguments against his opinions don't exist.
 

realibrad

Lifer
Oct 18, 2013
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Selectively replying to certain points and ignoring the rest is bad faith. You don't even know that the argument you made isn't addressed already in the portion you didn't read.

I've got a friend who likes to debate politics with me by e-mail and he does the same thing. I'll make six points and he'll pick out one point and respond to that, apparently ignoring the rest. He only argues a point he feels he can win. Does it every single time. I finally told him I was done debating him until he curtails his tendency to prop up his own denial of reality by pretending that almost all the arguments against his opinions don't exist.

No, its not bad faith. I'm not trying to deceive you in any way. I told you I read the first part, and only the first part. I then limited my response to the first part and explained why I did that. I made it clear why I stopped and why I would not continue.

Bad Faith - intent to deceive.

Maybe you are getting your terms mixed up, because, how I know it I did not do it.