How to promote a secular West.

[Moonbeam]

Given the premise that a secular society is vital for a culture that holds many and various religious beliefs, that it is the only way to prevent dominance of some particular state religion, what are the conditions that promote and further such belief. How are we to increase the belief in secularism practiced by Western society. What social factors promote such secular faith.

How about these as vital factors as opposed to the ravings of Atheists:

1. Existential security (you have enough money and food)

2. Personal freedom (you’re free to choose whether to believe or not)

3. Pluralism (you have a welcoming attitude to diversity)

4. Education (you’ve got some training in the sciences and humanities).

If even one of these factors is absent, the whole process of the secularization of a society slows down.

But if you are a Russian or a Republican you will know what to attack in a society to destroy it from within. If you know the mechanical nature of human behavior in detail you know how to destroy secularism if you see it as a threat.

 

[s0me0nesmind1]

Reading posts like this is really my wake-up call to stop drinking.

 

[sandorski]

Most "raving Atheists" totally agree with that list.

 

[Noah Abrams]

In my opinion, the sickness of the west partly if not mainly lies in its complete secular nature. It needs spirituality

 

[sandorski]

In my opinion, the sickness of the west partly if not mainly lies in its complete secular nature. It needs spirituality

You do not understand Secularism. You are also wrong. The less "Spirituality"(whatever that means)in Governance, the better a Society is in all aspects.

 

[whm1974]

You do not understand Secularism. You are also wrong. The less "Spirituality"(whatever that means)in Governance, the better a Society is in all aspects.

And as Humanity's actual knowledge increases, Beliefs in Supernatural Forces lessens.

 

[imported_tajmahal]

By proselytizing Atheism or secularism you are just placing them as an alternative faith and belief system. 6 of one or half a dozen of the other, you just end up having faith in something.

 

[sandorski]

By proselytizing Atheism or secularism you are just placing them as an alternative faith and belief system. 6 of one or half a dozen of the other, you just end up having faith in something.

Cool story Bro.

 

[whm1974]

By proselytizing Atheism or secularism you are just placing them as an alternative faith and belief system. 6 of one or half a dozen of the other, you just end up having faith in something.

Atheism is not a belief system or religion , it is simply a lack of belief in any gods. Secularism is simply the idea that government should not promote one religion over another or require a citizen to believe or follow a religion.

 

[Commodus]

By proselytizing Atheism or secularism you are just placing them as an alternative faith and belief system. 6 of one or half a dozen of the other, you just end up having faith in something.

Atheism is not faith -- it focuses on the scientific method, not a pre-determined belief. There's no blind trust, only observable facts and testable theories. If you don't know something, you admit you don't know it. Science is allowed to change its position if there's credible evidence that contradicts established views; religion treats anything that contradicts the original view as heresy. If there were someday evidence of gods and the spiritual, science would accept it.

Think about it for a moment: do you want governments and societies that conduct policy based on evidence, and adapt to changing knowledge and situations? If so, you must support secular society.

 

[whm1974]

Atheism is not faith -- it focuses on the scientific method, not a pre-determined belief. There's no blind trust, only observable facts and testable theories. If you don't know something, you admit you don't know it. Science is allowed to change its position if there's credible evidence that contradicts established views; religion treats anything that contradicts the original view as heresy. If there were someday evidence of gods and the spiritual, science would accept it.

Think about it for a moment: do you want governments and societies that conduct policy based on evidence, and adapt to changing knowledge and situations? If so, you must support secular society.

Personally I see faith as lying to oneself or willful make-believe with no good reason at all.

 

[Noah Abrams]

And as Humanity's actual knowledge increases, Beliefs in Supernatural Forces lessens.

Spirituality is not supernatural forces

 

[whm1974]

Spirituality is not supernatural forces

Define Spirituality.

 

[Noah Abrams]

Define Spirituality.

Cannot be defined.

 

[Noah Abrams]

1. Existential security (you have enough money and food)

2. Personal freedom (you’re free to choose whether to believe or not)

3. Pluralism (you have a welcoming attitude to diversity)

4. Education (you’ve got some training in the sciences and humanities).

America has a huge number of people who have all the above. And yet they are ugly and miserable and cause lots of suffering to others. This is not where it is at, in my opinion.

 

[Noah Abrams]

And as Humanity's actual knowledge increases, Beliefs in Supernatural Forces lessens.

Also humanity has lots of information and craves more and more of it. Which it keeps getting. Knowledge, which is a much deeper thing, I’m not sure that is increasing or decreasing.

 

[sandorski]

Cannot be defined.

Then it's nonsense.

 

[Moonbeam]

Then it's nonsense.

Define pornography or make a case that it doesn't exist.

 

[Moonbeam]

Most "raving Atheists" totally agree with that list.

No they don't. Militant or raving Atheists are opposed to people having faith. A secular society protects the faithful from idiots like that. In a secular society people are free to equally believe or not to believe.

In my opinion, the sickness of the west partly if not mainly lies in its complete secular nature. It needs spirituality

In a secular society one is free to believe in any amount of spirituality one wants or none at all. That spirituality may be of value is an issue that can only be promulgated in a secular society as one person's notion of what is spiritual may be heretical to another person's beliefs. Secular does not mean non believing. It is a system of government that protects both the religious and those without belief and equally.

 

[Moonbeam]

By proselytizing Atheism or secularism you are just placing them as an alternative faith and belief system. 6 of one or half a dozen of the other, you just end up having faith in something.

This is a side issue. Atheism and secularism are totally different things. Secularism is a form of government in which the right to believe or not believe are protected. It's not a belief, its a legal structure codified in the Constitution.

Define Spirituality.

Perhaps this might help you but be careful. It might sound like something I could say and well, you know, I am just crazy and doubtless have evil in my heart:

https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/spiritual-wisdom-secular-times/201103/what-is-spirituality

 

[Moonbeam]

It strikes me as rather amazing that people don't seem to realize how vital and central secularism is to the the enlightenment which produced the American Constitution as if it is some dangerous threat. See number 4. The point of this thread is to offer the notion that as we advance in our understanding of ourselves, we also advance the tools that those who wish to destroy our way of life can use against us, and I am thinking especially via the promulgation of fear.

 

[BurnItDwn]

Militant or raving Atheists are opposed to people having faith.

When it comes to most of the Atheist folks we are not opposed to people "having faith" so much as "putting faith above reason" or "using faith as a means to dictate rules or laws"

I have faith that overall, people are good. I have seen good people in my life, and bad people in my life. But, I have faith that more people are good than bad.

When poeple have faith that goes counter to reason, it will usually be destructive and dangerous. For example, there are people who have faith that the world is flat who are harrassing NASA and Astronauts and just generally wasting time, money, and just being mean about it all.

 

[Moonbeam]

When it comes to most of the Atheist folks we are not opposed to people "having faith" so much as "putting faith above reason" or "using faith as a means to dictate rules or laws"

I have faith that overall, people are good. I have seen good people in my life, and bad people in my life. But, I have faith that more people are good than bad.

When poeple have faith that goes counter to reason, it will usually be destructive and dangerous. For example, there are people who have faith that the world is flat who are harrassing NASA and Astronauts and just generally wasting time, money, and just being mean about it all.

I understand what you are saying. In a secular society people who put faith above reason are not allowed to push that faith on others by passing laws to that make using reason illegal. Also, we can't really experience emotional growth without putting faith or trust above reason. It is fear of water that keeps a lot of people from learning to swim, for example so they will never experience the joy such capacity can bring. Many people can see with their own eyes that some people of faith are way up the ladder when it comes to emotional happiness. This may tell them that faith may in fact make a great deal of rational sense. You do not learn the taste of wine without tasting it. There may be reasons not all of us know as to why spirituality has been around since the dawn of humanity.

 

[sandorski]

Define pornography or make a case that it doesn't exist.

No they don't. Militant or raving Atheists are opposed to people having faith. A secular society protects the faithful from idiots like that. In a secular society people are free to equally believe or not to believe.


In a secular society one is free to believe in any amount of spirituality one wants or none at all. That spirituality may be of value is an issue that can only be promulgated in a secular society as one person's notion of what is spiritual may be heretical to another person's beliefs. Secular does not mean non believing. It is a system of government that protects both the religious and those without belief and equally.

Nothing on the list in the OP requires Faith.

 

[cytg111]

It is pretty simple IMO. You need some kind of common foundation that teaches these rights as early as kindergarden/highschool.. and its mandatory. Some people will look at this and say its a violation of individual freedom but to me it is as essential as teaching natural selection and not ie. creationism in school. Mind you that you are free to do whatever believe whatever before during or afterwards, but these values are the glue that makes us living together on this land possible.
We should also teach why and how this way of life is fragile and vulnerable. We also need to agree what constitutes neutral news ie. reuters and make it law that whereever cable/news are broadcast this signal travels along.. You cant have one part of the planet watching fox as only choice and the other msnbc.. And whoever lobbied for this division in the first place should face the wrath of the collective people IMO.
While we are at it, another core component in the syllabus should be psych 101, some basic tools to undertand our own minds as well as others. Far from everyone have parents that are up to this task.