How to modernize city streets

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MrSquished

Lifer
Jan 14, 2013
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Around here sales tax pays for city street maintenance, so bikers pay for road maintenance just as much as cars, except they do much less damage.
A lot of cyclists own cars too. We pay taxes when we get gas. His point is silly.

And as you pointed out, bikes don't destroy roads like cars and trucks do.
 

MrSquished

Lifer
Jan 14, 2013
21,004
19,443
136
Lately at open houses I've met a few couples from like an hour west of NYC, I know the towns as my sister lives there - very quiet streets, wooded lots, etc...

Their kids are headed off to college, and they are done with the quiet burbs. They want to be near more restaurants, museums, art venues, they want to be near more people, social activities, less driving, etc....

Do you think they have become so happy in the quietness of more nature that they hate their happiness so much they want to move to a more urban area to punish themselves, like the self flagellating orders of certain religious sects @Moonbeam
 

zinfamous

No Lifer
Jul 12, 2006
110,512
29,098
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I dunno about that one moonie. There's plenty of "being essence" in urban areas. I'll give ya that it's different, but people bring the "essence" wherever they go.

I smell all that essence in the cities where I have lived!
 

Zorba

Lifer
Oct 22, 1999
14,452
9,837
136
A lot of cyclists own cars too. We pay taxes when we get gas. His point is silly.

And as you pointed out, bikes don't destroy roads like cars and trucks do.
Yeah, but in at least Oklahoma (I'm sure many others) gas taxes and registration goes to the state DOT, not the cities. Nearly all biking infrastructure is being done by the cities either with sales tax or grants.

There is also cost elimination, if you can eliminate even a fraction of cars at rush hour you can eliminate a lot of cost increasing throughput and repair. This is why PT should be free and have much better availability.
 

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
72,327
6,040
126
Lately at open houses I've met a few couples from like an hour west of NYC, I know the towns as my sister lives there - very quiet streets, wooded lots, etc...

Their kids are headed off to college, and they are done with the quiet burbs. They want to be near more restaurants, museums, art venues, they want to be near more people, social activities, less driving, etc....

Do you think they have become so happy in the quietness of more nature that they hate their happiness so much they want to move to a more urban area to punish themselves, like the self flagellating orders of certain religious sects @Moonbeam
I had an experience that changed how I see the world. It appears not to be one many many people share but some do. Those who have not had it see the world in many many ways but those who have had it see the world in the same and very different way. I would characterize it as uncharacterizable to those who have not had it so whatever I say about it will make no sense to them. I can say it involves the loss of belief in everything that might once have been considered vital and important as belief. It is a state of not knowing what others believe. In this way the truth is obvious when it comes to people and their opinions. All that we believe is only the product of believing. For the few who do not believe there is nothing but what is when there is no belief. Believers can have no idea of what that is, so when they hear some words about it they immediately turn that into what it is not, what they mistakenly believe it to be. To believe is arrogance, knowing what can't be known. This requires self defense because we don't want to be considered arrogant. Thus we live in a state of ego, the worship of the self via identification with this or that we were inculcated to regard as sacred, that which a good person should believe. Losing ones belief is just like dying.

I wanted to believe. I fought to believe with all my might. I failed and I believe it was honesty that caused that to happen. My Mother, to her deep regret demanded it. I surrendered in hopeless despair burnt to ashes. Do you know of the magical bird called the Phoenix? It's real.

Somewhere there is a book about Mulla Nasrudin with a drawing on the cover, the Mulla in his humble patched Dervish road, partially open and inside revealing a magnificent garden. Let us pray, on Earth as it is in Heaven. Think me malicious if you must, but I know what you may not. That garden is within you and everyone else.

As a Zen master once said, "Everyone is enlightened. It's nice to know it."
 
Dec 10, 2005
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There is also cost elimination, if you can eliminate even a fraction of cars at rush hour you can eliminate a lot of cost increasing throughput and repair. This is why PT should be free and have much better availability.
Since money is not limitless, I'd rather see the budget go towards better service with nominal use fees (or subsidies for poor people) over free transit.
 

pete6032

Diamond Member
Dec 3, 2010
7,443
3,004
136
Since money is not limitless, I'd rather see the budget go towards better service with nominal use fees (or subsidies for poor people) over free transit.
Building bike lanes allows for less costly transit. It is literally a subsidy for low income commuters.
 

Zorba

Lifer
Oct 22, 1999
14,452
9,837
136
Since money is not limitless, I'd rather see the budget go towards better service with nominal use fees (or subsidies for poor people) over free transit.
The problem with charging a fare is it instantly makes people think that public transit should be paying for itself. I've never heard someone say a freeway should be paying for itself, but hear that about subways all the time.

On our little streetcar system, when they have farefree weeks ridership goes up 3x every time.

So in theory I agree with you, in practice I don't.
 
Dec 10, 2005
23,987
6,788
136
The problem with charging a fare is it instantly makes people think that public transit should be paying for itself. I've never heard someone say a freeway should be paying for itself, but hear that about subways all the time.

On our little streetcar system, when they have farefree weeks ridership goes up 3x every time.

So in theory I agree with you, in practice I don't.
That's why you then jack up the price for parking, add car free zones in downtowns, and maybe congestion pricing, where warranted. Make daily operation of a private motor vehicle into city centers have a more direct cost on the user.

One of the biggest drivers of bringing people to transit is convenience and easy scheduling. If frequencies aren't high enough, or operate at weird schedules, people don't bother showing up, because it's easier to drive. A free bus every half hour is practically useless.
 
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fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
83,717
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That's why you then jack up the price for parking, add car free zones in downtowns, and maybe congestion pricing, where warranted. Make daily operation of a private motor vehicle into city centers have a more direct cost on the user.

One of the biggest drivers of bringing people to transit is convenience and easy scheduling. If frequencies aren't high enough, or operate at weird schedules, people don't bother showing up, because it's easier to drive. A free bus every half hour is practically useless.
Yes, I think this is an area where political considerations screw up effective transit operation. A better way to do things is to serve a smaller area, but serve it so well that it becomes genuinely preferable to driving. Instead the usual practice is to serve a wide area but do it so infrequently that nobody even thinks to take transit.
 

ch33zw1z

Lifer
Nov 4, 2004
37,734
18,003
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The problem with charging a fare is it instantly makes people think that public transit should be paying for itself. I've never heard someone say a freeway should be paying for itself, but hear that about subways all the time.

On our little streetcar system, when they have farefree weeks ridership goes up 3x every time.

So in theory I agree with you, in practice I don't.

As someone who take a tolled highway daily, yes it should pay for itself 😋, but I hate driving most of the time now, so a little biased
 

Zorba

Lifer
Oct 22, 1999
14,452
9,837
136
As someone who take a tolled highway daily, yes it should pay for itself 😋, but I hate driving most of the time now, so a little biased
Yeah people want tollways to pay for themselves, but never say anything about their neighborhood street or city streets. Basically as soon as something has a fee, the public expects it to self sufficient.
 
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