How to modernize city streets

[MrSquished]

NYC is a classic example of build it and they will come. Bike infrastructure was built, and riding exploded. People didn't feel safe before. Certain areas were pedestrianized and they became filled with people and vibrant.

This won't work everywhere but it will in a lot of places.

 

[interchange]

I agree, but back then opponents didn't have the legal weapons available today. It took like a year for the city to be able to paint 14th st. a different color and make it into a busway.

It's a plausible explanation for the difference, but I don't buy it, at least mostly.

 

[K1052]

NYC is a classic example of build it and they will come. Bike infrastructure was built, and riding exploded. People didn't feel safe before. Certain areas were pedestrianized and they became filled with people and vibrant.

This won't work everywhere but it will in a lot of places.

The bike lane they installed on the Brooklyn Bridge met ridership expectations that were at least two years out in about two months, with no corresponding drop on the other East river crossings. Good bike infra attracts/creates more riders and it is as simple as that. Same with good pedestrian improvements.

 

[fskimospy]

It's a plausible explanation for the difference, but I don't buy it, at least mostly.

Does this change your thinking at all?

CEQA Abuse 'Choking' Good Development, Study Finds

A study of CEQA litigation revealed widespread abuse that experts say undermines California's environmental sustainability goals.

www.planetizen.com

 

[interchange]

Does this change your thinking at all?

CEQA Abuse 'Choking' Good Development, Study Finds

A study of CEQA litigation revealed widespread abuse that experts say undermines California's environmental sustainability goals.

www.planetizen.com

Maybe I should clarify. By not buying it (mostly), I meant as the main difference between the success we had at modernizing streets with the advent of cars and the lack of success at making and maintaining environmental changes now. Absolutely these legal challenges are a factor. But if they had such mechanisms back then, I don't see it being nearly as successful at limiting change as things are now.

 

[fskimospy]

Maybe I should clarify. By not buying it (mostly), I meant as the main difference between the success we had at modernizing streets with the advent of cars and the lack of success at making and maintaining environmental changes now. Absolutely these legal challenges are a factor. But if they had such mechanisms back then, I don't see it being nearly as successful at limiting change as things are now.

I guess it's hard to prove a counterfactual but to an extent I would agree that a shift to accommodating cars was one that favored rich people and since it's primarily rich people that abuse the legal system to block development they would be less likely to do so when it catered to them.

 

[Moonbeam]

I guess it's hard to prove a counterfactual but to an extent I would agree that a shift to accommodating cars was one that favored rich people and since it's primarily rich people that abuse the legal system to block development they would be less likely to do so when it catered to them.

Clearly, then, the answer is to eliminate wealth.

 

[interchange]

I guess it's hard to prove a counterfactual but to an extent I would agree that a shift to accommodating cars was one that favored rich people and since it's primarily rich people that abuse the legal system to block development they would be less likely to do so when it catered to them.

Certainly we've entered a territory of opinion, but I'm good with that. I am here for the interchange of ideas, not facts.

I would use the word "powerful" instead of rich.

And I think it's really compelling to look at what things were like then through this lens. I'm no historian, but it's my impression that Henry Ford was a folk legend, a man who (at least publicly) cared very much about his relationship to his workers and the public. I imagine most commoners then marveled at being part of the innovation and saw this change as opportunity to be part of something grand, and I believe that image was more powerful than the opportunity to earn a wage.

Note: powerful people derive their power from the less powerful. There is virtually nothing that can stand in the way of change when those interests align.

 

[interchange]

Clearly, then, the answer is to eliminate wealth.

There is a Star Trek: TNG episode you have reminded me of. I hope you are a fan of the show and have seen the episode. It's the one where Q gets punished and made human by his fellow Q for abusing his omnipotence, so he then has to become a crew member of the Enterprise until he can do a good deed not motivated for secondary gain in order to regain his power. In the episode, there is a planet where its moon or an asteroid or something is on a collision course with it, and the engineering crew is trying to figure out a way to stop the collision. Q starts boasting about his massive IQ and LaForge asks him what he would do.

He says, "Easy, just change the gravitational constant of the universe."

I won't spoil the ending.

 

[Zorba]

In any major city I've been to that has zones where cars aren't allowed (other than some hours for delivery vehicles), that section becomes the most vibrant part of the city.

In 2020 all the little towns in the Colorado Rockies blocked their main streets and let stores and restaurants take them over. It was really nice. I've sent a few letters to my city council proposing they do the same at least one weekends, but I doubt it goes anywhere.

 

[MrSquished]

In 2020 all the little towns in the Colorado Rockies blocked their main streets and let stores and restaurants take them over. It was really nice. I've sent a few letters to my city council proposing they do the same at least one weekends, but I doubt it goes anywhere.

Jersey City turned a few blocks into pedestrian only plazas on what used to be a very busy street. It's been a great success and very popular after the initial outcry from the usual suspects. After a few years they are now really doing it up with all new landscaping and evening the street with the sidewalk, etc...

 

[Moonbeam]

There is a Star Trek: TNG episode you have reminded me of. I hope you are a fan of the show and have seen the episode. It's the one where Q gets punished and made human by his fellow Q for abusing his omnipotence, so he then has to become a crew member of the Enterprise until he can do a good deed not motivated for secondary gain in order to regain his power. In the episode, there is a planet where its moon or an asteroid or something is on a collision course with it, and the engineering crew is trying to figure out a way to stop the collision. Q starts boasting about his massive IQ and LaForge asks him what he would do.

He says, "Easy, just change the gravitational constant of the universe."

I won't spoil the ending.

Probably my favorite Star Trek character. My point was that it isn't directly a problem of wealth but something else. If one can't change the gravitational constant of the universe then one should move on to consider other possibilities like the fact that wealth simply gives power to people whose outlook on the meaning of life lies only as the fulfillment of ego gratification. Nothing will ever change until we understand the origin of that.

 

[interchange]

Probably my favorite Star Trek character. My point was that it isn't directly a problem of wealth but something else. If one can't change the gravitational constant of the universe then one should move on to consider other possibilities like the fact that wealth simply gives power to people who are look at the meaning of life lies only as the fulfillment of ego gratification. Nothing will ever change until we understand the origin of that.

OK. I'll spoil the ending. While they didn't technically change the gravitational constant of the universe, Q's comments did eventually open their minds to another strategy which worked whereas they had been totally rejecting him as a crewmate beforehand. An interesting interplay -- it took both the humility of Q and of the crew to find the solution.

 

[Zorba]

Jersey City turned a few blocks into pedestrian only plazas on what used to be a very busy street. It's been a great success and very popular after the initial outcry from the usual suspects. After a few years they are now really doing it up with all new landscaping and evening the street with the sidewalk, etc...

Tulsa actually did that a long time ago in their downtown, but when downtown completely died in 90s they reopened it as a street, around 1999. It was really nice before that, had fountains and art, etc.

Since then Downtown has come back, but not really in that location.

 

[MtnMan]

Its striking to me that almost everybody, no matter our origin story, agrees that green and trees are soothing and beautiful.

City here has put a couple of streets on road diets, i.e. 4 lane to 2 with bike lanes and totally FUBAR'ed traffic. Have their eye on other streets that will be even worse.
Then there is a tree lined, beautiful residential street. Mostly mature maple trees that make an attractive, and much cooler neighborhood. Fixing to cut they all down... to fix sidewalks. Neighbors are raging, but the city insists...

Of course, I have restrictions (I cannot have a living tree over 6" in diameter removed unless a certified arborist certifies it is a hazard.) on cutting down trees on my property... and they like to claim we are a "tree city".

 

[MtnMan]

The bike lane they installed on the Brooklyn Bridge met ridership expectations that were at least two years out in about two months, with no corresponding drop on the other East river crossings. Good bike infra attracts/creates more riders and it is as simple as that. Same with good pedestrian improvements.

Been running lots of errands lately (wife just had knee replacement) and this requires travel on 2 roads that have been put on a diet in the past year or so, with the bike lanes. The only thing I have noticed is not a single bike rider, but notice the bike lanes are littered with leaves, sticks, and trash, to the point it would be a hazard to someone on a bike.

 

[Brainonska511]

Been running lots of errands lately (wife just had knee replacement) and this requires travel on 2 roads that have been put on a diet in the past year or so, with the bike lanes. The only thing I have noticed is not a single bike rider, but notice the bike lanes are littered with leaves, sticks, and trash, to the point it would be a hazard to someone on a bike.

Good bike lanes are just one part of attracting people out of their cars and into bikes. It also means ensuring there are safe ways for bikers to get to those streets in the first place, having decent places to lock bikes up outside, places being close enough to make it worth biking, and obviously, ensuring that the lanes stay clean enough to safely use.

However, just because you don't see a biker in those instantaneous moments you drive by doesn't mean they don't exist.

City here has put a couple of streets on road diets, i.e. 4 lane to 2 with bike lanes and totally FUBAR'ed traffic. Have their eye on other streets that will be even worse.

Maybe some of those roads shouldn't be used as main thoroughfares that people can just quickly speed through. People are in such a god damn hurry all the time - we should be putting more road diets in place to slow people down in key areas. Engineered controls (ie, narrower lanes, fewer lanes) are one of the best ways to do that.

I was quite happy when I was in Somerville, MA and they started instituting road diets and putting better bike infrastructure in. If I had to drive somewhere, it might take me 1-2 more minutes in my heated/cooled metal cage to get somewhere. NBD. But walking around, biking around - those became so much more pleasant to do. Outdoor eating instead of a single curb spot? Yes please!

 

[Moonbeam]

OK. I'll spoil the ending. While they didn't technically change the gravitational constant of the universe, Q's comments did eventually open their minds to another strategy which worked whereas they had been totally rejecting him as a crewmate beforehand. An interesting interplay -- it took both the humility of Q and of the crew to find the solution.

All our lives we have been competing to be respected for our knowledge and all of our lives we have had to face the threat that others similarly competing will put us down if we fail. In this way they hope to gain points by appearing superior. And in this way too we develop fear where a simple recognition of our ignorance should be.

We crave certainty and flee uncertainty. It is a fact of our ego. It is also why the Oracle of Delphi named Socrates as the wisest man in the world. He alone knew that he didn’t know. But throughout time and place in this world there are a few freaks that know they know nothing. These are they who have died to ego. This is why only the childlike can go to heaven. It is also why psychological growth, essential learning is unlearning what we imagine we know.

 

[MrSquished]

Mayors around the globe who propose and implement sensible ways to take public space dedicated solely to cars and share it with pedestrians and cyclists are getting re-elected

The bikelash paradox: how cycle lanes enrage some but win votes

Meddling with drivers guarantees a media storm, but mayors behind ambitious road reclamations are consistently rewarded

www.theguardian.com

 

[pete6032]

I'm not a fan of protected bike lanes. They usually end up attracting garbage, leaves, snow, etc and then become un-rideable. Their main benefit is that they keep cars and trucks out of the lane, which is nice, but I sometimes see taxis and motorists driving in them.

 

[Moonbeam]

I believe that the inner yearning of the soul of man is better represented by the garden than by the city. The effort will always be to get back to that. I think too that the people in cities think little of country folk but the folk in the country feel a real sense of pity for the people who live in cities.

 

[fskimospy]

I believe that the inner yearning of the soul of man is better represented by the garden than by the city. The effort will always be to get back to that. I think too that the people in cities think little of country folk but the folk in the country feel a real sense of pity for the people who live in cities.

That's pretty weird. Do people outside of cities really have that much trouble understanding that not everyone has the same idea of what a nice life is like?

You would have to pay me to get me to live in a rural area but I'm very aware of the fact that some people really love it. Strange that other people could have such a total lack of understanding outside themselves.

 

[MrSquished]

That's pretty weird. Do people outside of cities really have that much trouble understanding that not everyone has the same idea of what a nice life is like?

You would have to pay me to get me to live in a rural area but I'm very aware of the fact that some people really love it. Strange that other people could have such a total lack of understanding outside themselves.

One could just as easily say that humans yearn to be near other humans and experience all the amazing things other humans can create and share in three dimensional land, things you do not get by living out in the sticks. Happiness is best when shared someone said once, and only in cities can you really share so many different expressions of the human spirit. But if you like the woods, so be it too. I get that.

I used to be a bit of a city elitist, but when folks like Obama wanted to spend money to get rural folks broadband, I was all for it, and getting them better infrastructure, and trains, and better schools and hospitals and job training, and all that stuff. Then I started to understand that some folks wanted to just live a quiet life out in the boonies, and that's great. We were all Americans and we could choose to live as we wished.

But then came Trump, and they loved him in 2016, and even more in 2020, and that is now a problem with me. I don't look at their lifestyle as different now, but their evil support of an evil party and evil man and evil agenda, that I have a big problem with. It's not about being a city elitist anymore about their lifestyle, but just simply about being evil in social and political matters.

As far as lifestyle. I too could not live out in a rural area as you say. Boring as fuck to me. I would get cabin fever after a few weeks.

I enjoy having access to a true diverse city like NYC, with all the amazing amenities from the food to the art to the music to the people, while also having a car and being able to escape to nature quite easily as well. The balance of living close to NYC and having quick routes to the woods or water is a perfect balance of life for me.

 

[Brainonska511]

I'm not a fan of protected bike lanes. They usually end up attracting garbage, leaves, snow, etc and then become un-rideable. Their main benefit is that they keep cars and trucks out of the lane, which is nice, but I sometimes see taxis and motorists driving in them.

That's because cities are being lazy and not keeping up with the maintenance side. Some cities in the Boston metro area have street sweepers and plows that are appropriately sized for clearing these lanes.

NYC has had its head up its ass for years - the Department of Sanitation has generally refuesed to buy equipment that could be used for clearing/cleaning those lanes.

 

[Moonbeam]

That's pretty weird. Do people outside of cities really have that much trouble understanding that not everyone has the same idea of what a nice life is like?

You would have to pay me to get me to live in a rural area but I'm very aware of the fact that some people really love it. Strange that other people could have such a total lack of understanding outside themselves.

One could just as easily say that humans yearn to be near other humans and experience all the amazing things other humans can create and share in three dimensional land, things you do not get by living out in the sticks. Happiness is best when shared someone said once, and only in cities can you really share so many different expressions of the human spirit. But if you like the woods, so be it too. I get that.

I used to be a bit of a city elitist, but when folks like Obama wanted to spend money to get rural folks broadband, I was all for it, and getting them better infrastructure, and trains, and better schools and hospitals and job training, and all that stuff. Then I started to understand that some folks wanted to just live a quiet life out in the boonies, and that's great. We were all Americans and we could choose to live as we wished.

But then came Trump, and they loved him in 2016, and even more in 2020, and that is now a problem with me. I don't look at their lifestyle as different now, but their evil support of an evil party and evil man and evil agenda, that I have a big problem with. It's not about being a city elitist anymore about their lifestyle, but just simply about being evil in social and political matters.

As far as lifestyle. I too could not live out in a rural area as you say. Boring as fuck to me. I would get cabin fever after a few weeks.

I enjoy having access to a true diverse city like NYC, with all the amazing amenities from the food to the art to the music to the people, while also having a car and being able to escape to nature quite easily as well. The balance of living close to NYC and having quick routes to the woods or water is a perfect balance of life for me.

Have you ever wondered what inside you would cause you to say, 'you would have to pay me' or 'boring as fuck' or from what such sentiments might arise. These are simply your unexamined truths, things you feel you know instinctively. Conservatives have those too with the result you cant tell them anything. The same pointless effort would be expended were I to try, here, to argue with you. Such a pity.

The point I thought was central to my post was the business of the garden. I wonder, do they still have real flowers on the table in quality restaurants, or have they dispensed with such things, or gone artificial, to save money. No truth in the idea that much of city beautification and livability is focused on introducing nature to an otherwise sterile environment. Cities are called asphalt jungles not because they represent jungles but the savagery folk imagine rules there, no?