How to break healthcare

[Sonikku]

Time for "Cesar" talk and other verbal masturbation is running out. Time for Republicans to have a replacement for Obamacare is approaching.

It's gonna be huge!!

No, it's gonna be BIGGER than HUGE! It's gonna be...

 

[trenchfoot]

Methinks the biggest problem the Repubs will have is having to repeal the ACA to keep their basement full of far right nutjobs happy (yes, even the ones that are enjoying the benefits the Act provides to them but hate it because Obama) and then slobber their stink all over it in order to call it their own without letting on that that's practically all they did to own it.

Good luck with that GOP. Everyone's watching how you're going to be playing three card monte with this, so practice hard with the sleight of hand, the jive talking and the usual flim flammering Rovian speak to make it at least sound convincing, K?

 

[Meghan54]

And I know you're not a hypocrite because I'm sure you're also against the theft of your money to pay for roads, right? Or schools. Or fire and police. Or clean water. You don't use the roads because you are adamant about not using/participating in this "theft" of your money, am I correct?

It is Christian actually. Jesus wanted us to engage in direct and personal charity, not ask government to do it for you by having tax collectors poach from those you think can afford it so you can feel good about "helping" your fellow man on someone else's dime. Jesus offered direct and personal help by healing the sick himself, he didn't go around with the excuse of 'collective action problem' and leading protests demanding Caesar provide a "public option." The people who wait for "the government" to do it for you are exactly the kind of people He flogged in the parable of the Good Samaritan.

 

[glenn1]

And I know you're not a hypocrite because I'm sure you're also against the theft of your money to pay for roads, right? Or schools. Or fire and police. Or clean water. You don't use the roads because you are adamant about not using/participating in this "theft" of your money, am I correct?

Those are all public goods that everyone benefits relatively equally from, healthcare is not because it's a rivalrous good which the government should not be involved in providing. Implying that because I'm OK with taxation to pay for roads means I *must* by extension support a vast social welfare state and redistributionist healthcare plans is like saying that women "owe" you sex because you bought them a meal during a date.

 

[Meghan54]

Those are all public goods that everyone benefits relatively equally from, healthcare is not because it's a rivalrous good which the government should not be involved in providing. Implying that because I'm OK with taxation to pay for roads means I *must* by extension support a vast social welfare state and redistributionist healthcare plans is like saying that women "owe" you sex because you bought them a meal during a date.

You really think healthcare isn't a public good? That a healthy population isn't a more productive population? That accessible and affordable healthcare for everyone will end up costing everyone less?

And you really do believe that repealing the ACA is going to result in your taxes not being spent on the "poors" who need but cannot afford health ins. or care? Really?

You obviously do not comprehend the fact that you already spend a good deal of your income for taxes that pay for indigent healtcare, although it's probably not represented as such in the income taxes, sales taxes, property taxes, et al, that you already pay.

 

[highland145]

Sure hasn't cost me less but as long as others are getting a free or nearly free ride I'm good.


The down side for my fan club is that my liver might fail and I won't be alive to pay up.

 

[glenn1]

You really think healthcare isn't a public good? It's not. That a healthy population isn't a more productive population? No evidence of that, especially since those who get the subsidies likely are unemployed or aren't contributing much production to begin with. That accessible and affordable healthcare for everyone will end up costing everyone less? Subsidies don't magically pay for themselves. While a small amount of publicly provided medical procedures have a positive ROI (like vaccinations) the vast majority will not.

And you really do believe that repealing the ACA is going to result in your taxes not being spent on the "poors" who need but cannot afford health ins. or care? Really? It's not my taxes being spent on the poors via ACA but rather the higher premiums and goldplating my current insurance with coverages I'm guaranteed not to use simply to gain the premium costs to spend on someone else.

You obviously do not comprehend the fact that you already spend a good deal of your income for taxes that pay for indigent healtcare, although it's probably not represented as such in the income taxes, sales taxes, property taxes, et al, that you already pay. And your point is? That since I already spend a lot on medical care for poors that I should double down and pay even more with Obamacare or other redistribution schemes?

See responses in bold.

 

[theeedude]

Other countries spend less for universal coverage than we spend for just Medicare and Medicaid.

 

[Londo_Jowo]

Other countries spend less for universal coverage than we spend for just Medicare and Medicaid.

Yet those other countries have the same population of one medium sized state in the US. I work with German and Swiss citizens, they pay more in taxes and health coverage (insurance) than most Americans covered by the ACA. They also have longer wait times to see specialist than we do here.

 

[K1052]

Yet those other countries have the same population of one medium sized state in the US. I work with German and Swiss citizens, they pay more in taxes and health coverage (insurance) than most Americans covered by the ACA. They also have longer wait times to see specialist than we do here.

Healthcare spending is about twice per capita in the US what it is in Germany last I looked. Not seeing care, outcomes, life expectancy, etc that justifies such a massive cost disparity.

 

[Londo_Jowo]

Healthcare spending is about twice per capita in the US what it is in Germany last I looked. Not seeing care, outcomes, life expectancy, etc that justifies such a massive cost disparity.

Couldn't have anything to do with cost of doing business in the US (ie malpractice insurance)?

 

[K1052]

Couldn't have anything to do with cost of doing business in the US (ie malpractice insurance)?

Every time I've seen any realistic assessment of the impact of fabled tort reform the "savings" are between 1-3% depending who's doing the asking. Doesn't do much to account for that gap.

 

[fskimospy]

Couldn't have anything to do with cost of doing business in the US (ie malpractice insurance)?

Total costs for malpractice including judgments, premiums, and defensive medicine are estimated to be around 2.4% of US health spending. And remember, of that 2.4% a large portion is probably warranted. (you wouldn't want someone to not be compensated if the doctor saws off their arm by mistake, for example) So no, it has nothing to do with that. I wish this zombie idea would finally die.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3048809/

Overall annual medical liability system costs, including defensive medicine, are estimated to be $55.6 billion in 2008 dollars, or 2.4 percent of total health care spending.

 

[Jhhnn]

Total costs for malpractice including judgments, premiums, and defensive medicine are estimated to be around 2.4% of US health spending. And remember, of that 2.4% a large portion is probably warranted. (you wouldn't want someone to not be compensated if the doctor saws off their arm by mistake, for example) So no, it has nothing to do with that. I wish this zombie idea would finally die.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3048809/

It won't die. It's woven into the post-truth tapestry of Repub propaganda.

 

[Londo_Jowo]

So if healthcare is so much cheaper in Europe why do people there pay higher taxes and healthcare premiums comparable to Americans?

 

[interchange]

I wonder about something like:
Medicaid for all with no premium.
Medicare available for all (with premiums reflective of cost for the newly covered population)
Employer-sponsored insurance would be a Medicare supplement and provide prescription drug coverage (if Medicare D were not elected)

 

[interchange]

So if healthcare is so much cheaper in Europe why do people there pay higher taxes and healthcare premiums comparable to Americans?

Do you have any idea how much employers contribute to the cost of healthcare plans? How about how much people pay out of pocket (deductibles, copay, coinsurance) when they use their healthcare plan?

 

[Londo_Jowo]

Do you have any idea how much employers contribute to the cost of healthcare plans? How about how much people pay out of pocket (deductibles, copay, coinsurance) when they use their healthcare plan?

Oh yes, I understand how much employers pay and people pay for out of pocket. I also like hearing what the German and Swiss techs have to say when people say they're so lucky to have free healthcare.

 

[interchange]

Oh yes, I understand how much employers pay and people pay for out of pocket. I also like hearing what the German and Swiss techs have to say when people say they're so lucky to have free healthcare.

No one has "free" healthcare. Of course those statements are at best idealized and likely involve ignorance.

But no one should be arguing that we don't spend significantly more than everyone else.

 

[fskimospy]

Oh yes, I understand how much employers pay and people pay for out of pocket. I also like hearing what the German and Swiss techs have to say when people say they're so lucky to have free healthcare.

They should be remarking on how much cheaper their health care is than ours. Here's two ways to look at it:

Health spending per capita:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_total_health_expenditure_per_capita

Here's by % of GDP:
http://data.worldbank.org/indicator/SH.XPD.TOTL.ZS?year_high_desc=true

In both cases the US is spending dramatically more than the Germans or Swiss are, so however much they are complaining about taxes or whatever our total spending is way higher.

 

[theeedude]

Oh yes, I understand how much employers pay and people pay for out of pocket. I also like hearing what the German and Swiss techs have to say when people say they're so lucky to have free healthcare.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_net_take-home_pay
Average German family gets more take home pay after all the taxes and insurance, and better government benefits. So get off your high horse.

Take home pay:
Married with 2 children at 100% of average wage[3]

Rank Country 2013 net income
in USD PPP
1

Luxembourg 55,387
2

Switzerland 50,817
3

Australia 46,334
4

Norway 46,311
5

Germany 45,687
6

Belgium 43,034
7

United States 42,433
8

South Korea 42,050
9

Ireland 41,459
10

United Kingdom 41,451

 

[Jhhnn]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_net_take-home_pay
Average German family gets more take home pay after all the taxes and insurance, and better government benefits. So get off your high horse.

Take home pay:
Married with 2 children at 100% of average wage[3]

Rank Country 2013 net income
in USD PPP
1

Luxembourg 55,387
2

Switzerland 50,817
3

Australia 46,334
4

Norway 46,311
5

Germany 45,687
6

Belgium 43,034
7

United States 42,433
8

South Korea 42,050
9

Ireland 41,459
10

United Kingdom 41,451

Well, yeh, but those are ebil soshulists who don't know what freedumb is. They're brainwashed.

 

[momeNt]

Yea let's all become net exporters tied to the Euro!!! It's so great everybody can do it!

Uhh we can't. Comparisons between USA and Europe fail on a fundamental level.

 

[theeedude]

Yes, we are "special." We can't do anything right.

 

[HamburgerBoy]

So what should we be doing that Germany and Switzerland are currently doing? Reminder to people itt that Germany doesn't have a single-payer system, and that Switzerland doesn't have public healthcare.