How much money is enough?

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ponyo

Lifer
Feb 14, 2002
19,688
2,811
126
Financial Independence is real - the ability to say FU to your job, walk away, be able to afford the time off and then relax and come back later to find a new one. To me that was $1.5M.

The ability to retire early is another level of FU and that number continues to change. How do you walk away from a great paying job when the economy is in flux so you sit back, work hard, one more year, and one more year and one more year .......... while you stack cash and fully fund your 401K.

$4M is the current goal
Just because you retire early doesn't mean you stop earning or growing your assets and net worth. The guy I quoted earlier on reddit who retired at 38 years old with $2.3 million and spent a year in Bangkok doing volunteer work just hit $4.6 million recently. He doubled his net worth in 2 years while retired. And he's pretty conservative with his investments.




It's so true what they say. The first million is absolutely the hardest. Once you have that first million, it's whole lot easier to grow your money. It takes money to make money. 20% of $2 million is $400k. $400k is lot of money to someone who only has $100k. They would have to 400% their money to hit $400k. But someone with $2 million, making $400k is really not that hard. And that's when you realize life isn't fair. Blue collar person who busts his ass and messes up his body physically doing honest work will never even come close to making crazy stupid money someone who just punches some keys and move numbers on the screen can make.
 
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ponyo

Lifer
Feb 14, 2002
19,688
2,811
126
This thread got me to thinking about it, about when and how much. I think we may retire in two years, even in the face of both of us making good wages, the most in our lives. We will certainly look at it. WTF is money if you don't get to enjoy it?
And that's why I said at certain point, it just feels like you're playing a video game. You're just constantly trying to beat your previous high score.

My dad passed away when he was 52. He was a workaholic. I remember him telling me he was going to take it easy when he reached retirement age and travel with my mom. He never got that chance. That's always been on back of my mind. You only get one life, and you never know when your time is up.
 

skyking

Lifer
Nov 21, 2001
22,765
5,928
146
we live frugally now. Using 5% per year, there is no reason not to retire. I'll be 60 and no way will I make 90. Nobody on either side of my family has.
 

Muse

Lifer
Jul 11, 2001
40,874
10,222
136
we live frugally now. Using 5% per year, there is no reason not to retire. I'll be 60 and no way will I make 90. Nobody on either side of my family has.
My mom made 98.5. My doctor said why not 120 for me! :)
 

skyking

Lifer
Nov 21, 2001
22,765
5,928
146
In the outside chance I am tormented with life for that long, I do have a life annuity in the form of a union pension.
 

Muse

Lifer
Jul 11, 2001
40,874
10,222
136
In the outside chance I am tormented with life for that long, I do have a life annuity in the form of a union pension.
I'm "getting up there" and am not (currently) "tormented." In fact, I've been feeling pretty dang good. My hands/wrists have some pain but it's not all the time, just mostly brief stuff. For instance, twisting the lid off a jar, too much range of motion brings on some pain. I might be able to reduce that a lot with some stretching, exercises. I should marry a physical therapist! :) A sexy one! ;)

I waited on social security until full benefit, i.e. not 65, no sir. I figured I don't need it now, just wait until it's maximum/month.

I tried on around 3 occasions to land union jobs. Just didn't seem to be my karma. I never got a card. I tried! The jobs seemed tolerable and I really needed the money... the money looked great to me. I lived below the poverty line seems like most my life... easily. At least I wasn't homeless. Well, in Hawaii I was sort of homeless, but homeless in Hawaii isn't what it is on the mainland. It was a great time.
 
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ponyo

Lifer
Feb 14, 2002
19,688
2,811
126
we live frugally now. Using 5% per year, there is no reason not to retire. I'll be 60 and no way will I make 90. Nobody on either side of my family has.
My dad had 5 brothers. Four died in their 40s and 50s. Only the youngest is still alive and he's in his 60s. My mom's side though, they live long. 80s and 90s is typical. I don't know which side I inherited.

I took out 20 year term $1 million life insurance policy when I was in my early 30s to protect my daughter until she's an adult. I figured if I was going to die, I would die in my 40s or early 50s. I'm still in my 40s so it's too early to say but hopefully I inherited my mom's side life expectancy and live a long life.
 
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Exterous

Super Moderator
Jun 20, 2006
20,569
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Financial Independence is real - the ability to say FU to your job, walk away, be able to afford the time off and then relax and come back later to find a new one.

I remember when I when I got my first "real" job - I kept the near full time one I had been working to put myself through school because working 70 hours a week was still less than work+school. It was a stressful and often thankless job but work hours flexibility was great. Anyway - it becoming my 'backup job' immediately made everything more tolerable. That freedom to not need the job and to be able to just walk away was liberating. To be able to tell my boss respectfully but firmly "No I'm not going to do that." was amazing. We even had a conversation once where he tried to push the issue "I'm your boss so you have to do what I say." to which I replied something along the lines of "I understand but I am not going to do that so if you'd like this to be my last day I understand." The look on his face.....

My dad passed away when he was 52. He was a workaholic. I remember him telling me he was going to take it easy when he reached retirement age and travel with my mom. He never got that chance. That's always been on back of my mind. You only get one life, and you never know when your time is up.

Similar situation happened to my dad. An incredibly powerful and painful lesson that has stayed with me and changed the course of my life.
 

shortylickens

No Lifer
Jul 15, 2003
80,287
17,081
136
My dad was gone at 59 thanks to ALS. He too had many plans for the future, mostly for retirement.
Life is short. If you wanna do something, do it right now. You probably wont be in the same mindset when you're older. You won't make time.
 

skyking

Lifer
Nov 21, 2001
22,765
5,928
146
My mom and dad both smoked all their adult lives. He drank hard until my age, 59, and died from his 3rd heart attack at 63. His first one he was 50 :(
Mom suffered the effects of smoking in several ways but did not get serious COPD symptoms until her last week. She was 85.
I've never smoked and quit drinking 30 years ago, but fight with my weight. The reality is, I will be fortunate to enjoy good health to my 80's.
Now is the time to spend the dosh and have fun!! :D
I get my full pension, what ever I have banked at 62. My new job is easy and they would keep paying me to work as long as I wanted. Now I have to convince my younger, workaholic and health challenged wife to bail with me. I will work as long as she is still working, most likely.
I won't be posting up how much money we have saved our any goals with numbers.
Our current bills will be covered by the lifetime annuities without those savings. I figure spending 5% of those savings is the way to go. The remainder will continue growing at conservative rates, so it will reach past 25 years.
 
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Kaido

Elite Member & Kitchen Overlord
Feb 14, 2004
51,542
7,234
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I do think it's important to set targets. I've done IT work for a lot of wealthy people (typically the owners of the business) over the years & have seen the "treadmill trap" they fall into where 'enough is never enough'. I remember the first time I ran into this, the guy had like tens of millions of dollars, jet airplanes, mansions all over the country, etc., and was just never satisfied. I can understand the principle of constantly extending your reach for continued personal growth, but I think it also prevented him from enjoying a lot of things because he was trying to fill a void that couldn't be filled.

I think you need a balance as well. You're going to die someday, and you can save all you want for retirement & drop dead of a heart attack the day you retire. Now, that's not a license to live only for today, save nothing, and spend everything, but again - you need a balance. From what I've seen, most people are content to simply coast through life without ever questioning what they want from it or how they want to live it, so they miss out on a lot of great things now & in the future.

Back when I did career counseling stuff, I would walk people through a checklist to funnel them down into actionable choices, and then pair them with experiences to learn about particular jobs or types of jobs. I've modified that approach in the time since then to include the question of finances. It's actually become the first question I ask: how much money do you want to make?

Our society is still fair taboo about this, but it's more of a question of lifestyle design than anything, really. I usually tell the story of my friend's dad...he's one of the guys who got me into electronics & taught me about computers, but he drove a school bus for something like $24k a year full-time. Keep in mind here that I'm not knocking the job whatsoever, but for him, he was self-limiting his potential because he went into ostrich-mode, stuck his head in the sand, and refused to look at any other career options, for reasons I don't understand. He could have been making well in excess of $100k a year with his talents, but simply refused to think about the future & look at different options. So there's kind of a pendulum, in a couple respects:

1. Living for today & the future...not partying non-stop in the "now", but also not waiting for retirement to enjoy life
2. Finding a job that fits your needs financially, without cutting yourself short through inaction to improve your situation, but also not being suckered into the endless chase for the dollar

One thing I've learned over the years is that pretty much everything in life boils down to a simple, clear checklist, and it's when we either stray from that or simply don't define it that we get into trouble. Success isn't that complicated, but unless you lay the foundation by defining what you personally want, then things will always be hazy, which usually leads to sub-par, diffused results.

I've applied these concepts in my own life with pretty good success. Sometimes this meant getting jobs to pay the bills, and sometimes this meant on passing higher-paying career opportunities to ensure that I stay doing what I love every day. When I was a kid, I was pretty low-energy (still am, just have to manage it haha) & dreamed of a good-paying job where I could be a slacker. Lo & behold I actually got that job, and it turned out to immensely unsatisfying because of the underlying principles of what makes us tick as humans (i.e. we have a strong need to use our talents to contribute to serving others in some societal capacity).

Eventually I matured (a bit) & got onboard the train of 1, figuring out what kind of lifestyle I wanted & what kind of pay that required, 2, figuring out where I got my fulfillment from (work & also outside of work), and 3, discovering that making a contribution to society actually feels pretty good & was something that I actually wanted to do as a career, rather than just working at a job & coming home & playing video games all the time. I've been fortunate to be able to find a good balance between getting the income I needed to pursue the lifestyle I wanted & also immensely enjoying what I do day to day so that I don't dread going into work on a daily basis.

So, I think it's a great question with a multi-faceted answer. To get started, ask yourself this: if you won twenty million in the lottery tomorrow & never had to work another day in your life & got all of your bills & debts paid off...what would you do with the rest of your life? I'm not talking about the knee-jerk reaction of buy an island, sit around all day, and do handouts, but really, seriously think about what kind of work you'd do if you didn't have to work.

This is a pretty powerful prompting question because it helps to clarify personal meaning in our lives, rather than floating down the river of life & being reactive to whatever comes our way. I think living a proactive life is a far more fun & enjoyable way to live life than just taking what comes along & dealing with it. The danger here, of course, is that you get on that endless treadmill of chasing the dollar, so you never really obtain fulfillment because you've set yourself up so that you can never get it.

So again, there's kind of a pendulum between being a slacker & being insatiable, financially-speaking. imo, finding a calling of sorts where you're both making enough to suit your desired lifestyle, but where you also don't hate going into work, is a really good goal to work towards. Not everyone gets their fulfillment from work, which is important to keep in mind, but I also think not dreading the thought of going in every day is a pretty big deal haha. Again, a simple checklist on paper, but most of us never really think about it to the degree where we both define it & let it dictate our day to day actions in pursuit of it. I've had some pretty dumb jobs because I ignored these principles, and I have a much more enjoyable one now because I paid attention to them!
 
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skyking

Lifer
Nov 21, 2001
22,765
5,928
146
I waited on social security until full benefit, i.e. not 65, no sir. I figured I don't need it now, just wait until it's maximum/month.
I may do that too. We will look at it in two years.
 

skyking

Lifer
Nov 21, 2001
22,765
5,928
146
what would you do with the rest of your life? I'm not talking about the knee-jerk reaction of buy an island, sit around all day, and do handouts, but really, seriously think about what kind of work you'd do if you didn't have to work.
That's the question I will be working on for the next couple of years. I won't be changing my current career, I am in the end game now. I know I have to work at something after I retire, for my personal fulfillment. I think about tutoring, volunteering, volunteer traveling gigs, getting back into aviation in some capacity. Things like that.
I do need to make a good actionable plan for that day I walk out of the job. I can and probably will work a little after I retire to help cover the high demand times for my employer. I can work up to 50 hours a month in my trade without affecting my pension. That would be handy to cover my successor's vacations, for example. I'd do that exactly until the day it affected my plans negatively :)
 
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MagnusTheBrewer

IN MEMORIAM
Jun 19, 2004
24,122
1,594
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Just because you retire early doesn't mean you stop earning or growing your assets and net worth. The guy I quoted earlier on reddit who retired at 38 years old with $2.3 million and spent a year in Bangkok doing volunteer work just hit $4.6 million recently. He doubled his net worth in 2 years while retired. And he's pretty conservative with his investments.




It's so true what they say. The first million is absolutely the hardest. Once you have that first million, it's whole lot easier to grow your money. It takes money to make money. 20% of $2 million is $400k. $400k is lot of money to someone who only has $100k. They would have to 400% their money to hit $400k. But someone with $2 million, making $400k is really not that hard. And that's when you realize life isn't fair. Blue collar person who busts his ass and messes up his body physically doing honest work will never even come close to making crazy stupid money someone who just punches some keys and move numbers on the screen can make.
It's not about how much money you have, it's about what you do with your money. Earning more isn't doing anything with your money.
 

ultimatebob

Lifer
Jul 1, 2001
25,134
2,450
126
Those guys on /r/wallstreetbets scare the crap out of me. The moves they make with stock options could easily bankrupt someone if the market suddenly swings the opposite way of what was expected.
 

brianmanahan

Lifer
Sep 2, 2006
24,625
6,011
136
Those guys on /r/wallstreetbets scare the crap out of me. The moves they make with stock options could easily bankrupt someone if the market suddenly swings the opposite way of what was expected.

WSB is insane

i remember the permanently disabled dude who found a way to effectively give himself 24x leverage on RH

then did it in early march with half UPRO, half TMF which failed spectacularly due to the corona crash and got him margin called

he had a week to recover the over 1$ million in losses but failed to do so, so he got liquidated

last i knew he was expecting them to go after everything they could of his, including potentially getting part of his 15$k/month disability checks
 
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TXHokie

Platinum Member
Nov 16, 1999
2,558
176
106
The FIRE stars will align for me when I have 1.603 mil put away in 401k/Roth with no mortgage or 62 yrs old whichever comes first. All I'd be on the hook for then would be real estate tax, insurance, little utility cost due to solar, and food...oh and the big question mark on healthcare. I don't care for big toys and just want to travel and see places and enjoy life experiences and eat good food. I figure that lifestyle can only go for 10 yrs or so after retirement when the body will really tire down and travel will be much limited as time goes after that. This whole Covid thing kind of throw that planned travel life into question now.

Looking back I probably could've saved more and retire earlier but I have these F-it moments without the FU money every year where I'd just go on these spontaneous trips and vacations with my family and enjoyed ourselves and honestly have zero regrets on any of it. Those trips have left very good memories of family time together. I only wish I could do more but had to go to back to work or kids back to school. My take on money is that you can't take it with you, make sure it's put to good use while you're able and are around with the people you love. The one that spent it down closest to zero when he kicks the bucket wins.