How much money is enough?

[skull]

Sounds like he lives a pretty ascetic lifestyle.

I was with him to the no women part. A good wild woman can make nothing exciting.

 

[Muse]

Sounds like he lives a pretty ascetic lifestyle.

Well, that's it exactly. Yes, you can live very cheaply. I've lived very cheaply, I know how it's done. But he's in a particular situation. Mentions he does odd jobs for family and friends and gets paid in goods, not money... they lay food on him, he barters. That's specific to him. It's not a blueprint someone else can follow. It's a way of life he's worked out for himself. I ran into a couple of guys one day during the 1970's IIRC, who were vagabonds, evidently paired together (I had no hint that they had a sexual relationship, just companions), they were fairly young (not old or even middle aged), and they ate by hitting the dumpsters. They told me their opinion that women weren't worth the trouble. Now they weren't as rooted as EliteRetard.

 

[Muse]

When you dont even know how much is in the bank.
When you dont even know how many accounts you have, or where.
When you can afford to have a personal shopper who does know.

I watched Parasite (Korea, 2019) last night. They were pretty much like that. Good movie!

 

[Spacehead]

Thanks for sharing that info. I hope i didn't come across as trying to call you out or anything. You do live a very different lifestyle as most(i would guess) & as long as you're happy with it, great.

Not certain what "shelter in place" means, but I think I can assume.

My "shelter in place" comment was basically, do you ever go out for fun? Sounds like you don't much.

All the rich people ($60k+) need to stop bitching about how they're suffering with so little, being held down by "the man".

I can agree with you a little there. Everyone's situation is different but people get accustomed to their lifestyle they have & want to keep it, or better it. Usually that means more money.

 

[zinfamous]

How are you so sure? Are you ready to be disappointed?


What does it mean to own the color blue? Explain me the reference.

purely guessing here and not even relating to the Chris Rock mention, Blue is historically the most expensive color. It is extremely rare and, in nature....it is barely natural. I think there are only one or two flowers that are actually naturally blue. Everything else has been hybridized for generations by humans to appear blue.

Originally, the only way to make blue dye for paint was from crushing up lapis lazuli, which made it extremely rare as a hue for oil paints and of course very expensive. This is why, if you have any familiarity with Renaissance painting and early, blue would only ever be used for representing the Virgin Mary. It was that important.

Blue is also the most recent hue to actually be defined/given a name/expressed by humans. The ancient greeks had no concept of "blue." The ocean was never "blue." The sky certainly wasn't blue. If you read Homer and other pieces from the ancient greeks, the sky is only ever black or red. And it's not metaphor.

Some anthropologist couple did a weird study on their own children, because concepts of color are taught--they aren't instinct. They also aren't transferrable from one item to the next...especially with blue. Sounds weird? So, they taught their kids colors, what was red, blue, green, things like that. Only, when it came to the sky, they withheld at those young ages any direct description of the sky. They never coached their children into calling it blue, even though they understood blue in the color palate of objects. They could point to objects that they hadn't seen before, and animals or whatever, and know what was orange or blue or red or black. ...but the sky was forever a mystery. I think they most often called it "white" when asked. ....it's very strange, but when you think about it, it's also kind of accurate.

hmmm, wish I could find the bit about that couple, but I don't recall exactly where I read that...maybe it is in this article? I forget. But it has some good info on the history of color and how they have been created.

Treasures from the Color Archive

The historic pigments in the Forbes Collection include the esoteric, the expensive, and the toxic.

www.newyorker.com

basically: Blue is extremely rare (not at all natural) and possibly because of this, the most preferred of all colors on average.

 

[Muse]

purely guessing here and not even relating to the Chris Rock mention, Blue is historically the most expensive color. It is extremely rare and, in nature....it is barely natural. I think there are only one or two flowers that are actually naturally blue. Everything else has been hybridized for generations by humans to appear blue.

Originally, the only way to make blue dye for paint was from crushing up lapis lazuli, which made it extremely rare as a hue for oil paints and of course very expensive. This is why, if you have any familiarity with Renaissance painting and early, blue would only ever be used for representing the Virgin Mary. It was that important.

Blue is also the most recent hue to actually be defined/given a name/expressed by humans. The ancient greeks had no concept of "blue." The ocean was never "blue." The sky certainly wasn't blue. If you read Homer and other pieces from the ancient greeks, the sky is only ever black or red. And it's not metaphor.

Some anthropologist couple did a weird study on their own children, because concepts of color are taught--they aren't instinct. They also aren't transferrable from one item to the next...especially with blue. Sounds weird? So, they taught their kids colors, what was red, blue, green, things like that. Only, when it came to the sky, they withheld at those young ages any direct description of the sky. They never coached their children into calling it blue, even though they understood blue in the color palate of objects. They could point to objects that they hadn't seen before, and animals or whatever, and know what was orange or blue or red or black. ...but the sky was forever a mystery. I think they most often called it "white" when asked. ....it's very strange, but when you think about it, it's also kind of accurate.

hmmm, wish I could find the bit about that couple, but I don't recall exactly where I read that...maybe it is in this article? I forget. But it has some good info on the history of color and how they have been created.

Treasures from the Color Archive

The historic pigments in the Forbes Collection include the esoteric, the expensive, and the toxic.

www.newyorker.com

basically: Blue is extremely rare (not at all natural) and possibly because of this, the most preferred of all colors on average.

basically: Blue is extremely rare (not at all natural) and possibly because of this, the most preferred of all colors on average.

There is a family of butterflies known as blues.

 

[brianmanahan]

speaking of blue, this is the greatest song the 90s:

 

[EliteRetard]

But how do you keep up with all your bills? Hydro, gas, insurance, rent, taxes, internet, cell etc... that adds up fast even in a small place since most have base fees. I'm not even in a high cost area and all that stuff adds up to a couple grand a month. Even if I moved to a smaller place it would not really change.

I live in Washington, lots of places to get free water which I use almost exclusively for drinking.
Because of my low mileage driving (200-250 mi/month), even at $3-4/gallon, I spend about $20-25/month.
I would almost not drive at all if I didn't need to move so much, and if family weren't so far away.

Total insurance costs are around $98/month because I elect to have very high total coverage ($500k+).
For rent so far I have always been able to negotiate some kind of shelter for $400-500/month.
Even if I have to live in a closet or share with several others, there's no need for a massive place to sleep.

I don't pay taxes because I have little income, I literally can't even file since there is a minimum required.
I haven't needed to pay for internet in a long time. Almost everywhere offers free WiFi if I really need it.

Cellphones are one of those things I loath entirely. Most people would kill their child to keep that soul sucking device.
I absolutely refuse to sign up for such a horrific service, now that they literally require you to give your life for it.
I do recall a time when you could get a quality cell that did everything without requiring such sacrifices.
Even then, people have become so disgustingly obsessed with them that it's basically a zombie apocalypse.

I do keep a device that allows calls and basic texts, it's nearly free since I use it so rarely (total under $8/month).
My last message was from my dad: "Are you still alive? I need you to install a security camera system for me".
There's a good chance he'll want me to stay for a week fixing a bunch of small stuff or add other large projects.

Current monthly expenses:
$400 rent
$120 penalty for Obamacare
$100 Insurance (car+renters)
$35 for cell/vehicle/gas

I feel like I should add some for random expenses, I probably spend around $25/year on clothing.
So it's quite a bit more than the $600 I previously stated, I was only thinking of the big ticket items.
I'm still slowly growing my savings though, if I ever start going negative then I can make changes.

 

[EliteRetard]

speaking of blue, this is the greatest song the 90s:

The greatest?

It's certainly very 90's, but there are lots of songs that are.
I guess great is a relative term, since best of the worst is possible.

I don't hate 90's music, but I'm not sure I'd ever use "great" to describe a song from that decade.

 

[purbeast0]

A lot of you don't understand the concept of FU money apparently.

 

[ViviTheMage]

The markets aren't easy for most people. Fucks with your mind, really does. Gotta have a good plan and stick with it. It's all easier said than done. Seems so easy sometimes, but that's an illusion. My returns have never justified all the time and effort I put into it, not even close. Fact is, the S&P500 averages 10% increase/year. I hear that 60% at least of investment counselors can't match that return. That when all you had to do was buy and forget the SPY! Warren Buffet (investment genius) said most people would best just buy the SPY and that's it. Hold on through the ups and downs.

Honestly, not the worst idea for long term gains.

 

[nakedfrog]

Cellphones are one of those things I loath entirely. Most people would kill their child to keep that soul sucking device.
I absolutely refuse to sign up for such a horrific service, now that they literally require you to give your life for it.
I do recall a time when you could get a quality cell that did everything without requiring such sacrifices.
Even then, people have become so disgustingly obsessed with them that it's basically a zombie apocalypse.

LOL No.
I spent $220 on my cell phone, and my plan is $32 a month. I will in all likelihood use this one for another 2-4 years (for a total of 4-6), when it will probably stop working, and I'll spend another $220 or so, like I did the previous time. It's a fantastically useful device, I don't need a separate camera or a GPS unit. Even if I were trying to live a minimalist lifestyle like you, a decent phone does so many things it's a good thing to have.

 

[dullard]

A lot of you don't understand the concept of FU money apparently.

There are multiple definitions:

1) Some people say it is the point at which you can tell your boss that you are through with his/her crap and walk away without worry. You have enough wealth that you are okay until you get another job.

2) Other people say that you can tell Money itself that you are through worrying and can never think about Money again. You have enough wealth that at your current lifestyle you never need another job or to even worry if your investments are sufficient.

3) I could see some people thinking that it is a level at which you can have any lifestyle, but that is not a normal definition.

 

[EliteRetard]

LOL No.
I spent $220 on my cell phone, and my plan is $32 a month. I will in all likelihood use this one for another 2-4 years (for a total of 4-6), when it will probably stop working, and I'll spend another $220 or so, like I did the previous time. It's a fantastically useful device, I don't need a separate camera or a GPS unit. Even if I were trying to live a minimalist lifestyle like you, a decent phone does so many things it's a good thing to have.

I can call, text, use GPS, browse the web, remote into my computer, etc with a Sanyo SCP-8400.
It doesn't require you to give away your life/identity, has a headphone jack, and can easily swap batteries.
I got it free with a cell plan, and for a long time I had unlimited Sprint service for $25/month.

All that said, I no longer need GPS, or the web, or a camera, or anything like that on a phone.

 

[Muse]

I live in Washington, lots of places to get free water which I use almost exclusively for drinking.
Because of my low mileage driving (200-250 mi/month), even at $3-4/gallon, I spend about $20-25/month.
I would almost not drive at all if I didn't need to move so much, and if family weren't so far away.

Total insurance costs are around $98/month because I elect to have very high total coverage ($500k+).
For rent so far I have always been able to negotiate some kind of shelter for $400-500/month.
Even if I have to live in a closet or share with several others, there's no need for a massive place to sleep.

I don't pay taxes because I have little income, I literally can't even file since there is a minimum required.
I haven't needed to pay for internet in a long time. Almost everywhere offers free WiFi if I really need it.

Cellphones are one of those things I loath entirely. Most people would kill their child to keep that soul sucking device.
I absolutely refuse to sign up for such a horrific service, now that they literally require you to give your life for it.
I do recall a time when you could get a quality cell that did everything without requiring such sacrifices.
Even then, people have become so disgustingly obsessed with them that it's basically a zombie apocalypse.

I do keep a device that allows calls and basic texts, it's nearly free since I use it so rarely (total under $8/month).
My last message was from my dad: "Are you still alive? I need you to install a security camera system for me".
There's a good chance he'll want me to stay for a week fixing a bunch of small stuff or add other large projects.

Current monthly expenses:
$400 rent
$120 penalty for Obamacare
$100 Insurance (car+renters)
$35 for cell/vehicle/gas

I feel like I should add some for random expenses, I probably spend around $25/year on clothing.
So it's quite a bit more than the $600 I previously stated, I was only thinking of the big ticket items.
I'm still slowly growing my savings though, if I ever start going negative then I can make changes.

I drive less than you, averaging 80 miles/month. My insurance? Well, I guess it's 250k, but I haven't made an insurance claim or been in an accident since the 1960's, if then. I drive very little but am a really good (DEFENSIVE!) driver. I don't care if I'm cutting off 5 seconds here, 10 seconds there. That's for assholes.

$400-500 rent sounds like a lot to me because I was paying less than $250/month until I bought this house. The landlord had to sell cause they were behind on taxes. I scraped the money together and now I own the house where I shared and rented. It's run down (built in 1910!), but in a way that may be good for me. I can be perfectionistic but it doesn't make sense to be that here, so it's a wash.

I didn't pay taxes this or last year. I have some investment loss to carry forward so I file. That should pay for my Turbotax by and by.

I have internet, gigabit fiber. ~$60/month. I have a cell phone too. Occasionally I need one but I rarely use it for calls. $10/month plan, doesn't break the bank. I am not wedded to my cell phone. I use some apps way more than the data/calling feature. My main phone is the free nationwide calling that's a perk for my internet... yeah, land line.

I have medicare, which costs me around $100/month, and get social security, not a lot, less than most people, but it's signficant and dependable.

I inherited a chunk of money, which I'm trying to grow because, like a friend said, living frugally "gets old." It's fun to spend money sometimes. Not being able to kind of sucks. I really know how to be frugal, I literally have been thinking of writing a book on it. I'm very expert, at least about a lot of it.

 

[skyking]

OK, to the OP. If I had a windfall of 200K right now it would be FU time.

 

[Red Squirrel]

Holy crap even in my small city a typical rent is at least $900. I can't even imagine $400 rent, that's less than my tax/water bill alone. $300/mo here might get you an upstairs room in a condemned house that is being used to sell fentanyl out of.

 

[ponyo]

OK, to the OP. If I had a windfall of 200K right now it would be FU time.

Couple years ago I actually set aside separate $200k for my "crap I screwed up again" fund. I keep that separate from all my other money and is not part of my emergency fund. What that money is for is in case I do something really stupid and go broke in the market. I keep that money in gold and silver so I can't easily sell or spend it. That's my money of last resort and hope money. My get out of jail fund. I know with $200k, I can start fresh from scratch and make it back to millions if I royally screwup and lose all my money somehow. At least the potential is there. That's the sole purpose of that $200k. Hopefully I will never have to use that money. Ever.

I paid off my house in 2008 and been completely debt free since then. I could've paid off the house easily back in 2000. I had close to FU money as 20 something kid out of college because of million I made from the stock market in late 98 through early 2000. But I thought I was so smart and the good times would continue forever. I took all the easy money for granted. I was heavily margined and almost got destroyed when the the Dotcom bubble popped. That was tough but good lesson. But I wouldn't want to wish losing millions to anyone. Not even to my worst enemy. The emotional and psychological pain of going broke is unreal and unless you've experienced it, you won't fully understand how devastating it is.

I wish I would've taken time off and traveled like this guy in my 20s.

https://www.reddit.com/r/financialindependence/comments/gwhxgh

And what @puffff did quitting his job in his 20s and traveling the world for a year stuck with me all these years.
https://forums.anandtech.com/threads/i-quit-my-job-today.1479873/
I'm still super envious of what he did. I can't do that yet because I don't think my wife is up for full-time travel but baby steps.

My wife and I are looking forward to traveling frequently once this coronavirus dies down. We're going to spend like a month at a time living in various countries and cities. Our daughter will start college next year so we won't need to stay home all the time to take care of her.

 

[Muse]

I've never been on margin. Well, I think I was for a few bucks by mistake for a day or so, but that doesn't count. My dad was against margin. Not that I think my dad was all that great about everything (he was pretty great), but most of the money I have is by virtue of him, I inherited it when my mom died. So, I figure I should respect him with his money! Now his attitude was buy stocks and never even look and see how they're doing. IOW, buy good stocks and maybe in 10 years or whatever then have a look... don't check out how they're doing all the time. His attitude was be great at your profession, the best if possible, make a good living, let that be the foundation of your financial stability. And he lived that. Actually, he was partners with his brother, who amongst the two was the investment expert.

I have spent a lot of time trying to figure out "how to make money in stocks", yeah, the name of a famous book and I have that book. I think William J. O'Neill is a genius. But his system isn't as easy to implement as it appears. Right now I'm dedicated to trading major index ETFs using buy and sell signals based on the Golden Cross and the Death Cross. I tried buying and selling individual stocks. It's tempting, it is some fun, but the ups and downs are hard to take if you have a life, if you have a lot of other things to do. I might have done well at it, it seemed I was close, but didn't get it right. I'm not willing to do that any more. I had great ideas but couldn't translate them into the actions necessary to succeed. I mean, I knew what stocks were going to be the big winners, I just couldn't discipline myself to trade those. The technical details of the systems I was studying got in the way! Seems crazy but I think it's true.

 

[Muse]

Holy crap even in my small city a typical rent is at least $900. I can't even imagine $400 rent, that's less than my tax/water bill alone. $300/mo here might get you an upstairs room in a condemned house that is being used to sell fentanyl out of.

When I moved into this house there were 5 other people living here (lots of small rooms, each had their own room). Total rent was IIRC $810! Yup, the cheapest rent in town. When someone moved out we would advertise for a replacement and we had people coming sometimes who were just curious to see what this place could be like that had such low rent! That was the 80's and 90's. I bought the place in 2000. Outright, because the banker who told me my mortgage was a sure thing turned around at the last minute and told me it had fallen through. I was working full time, and I had $1000 left when escrow closed. I spent that $1000 on a refrigerator, which I still have!

 

[EliteRetard]

Holy crap even in my small city a typical rent is at least $900. I can't even imagine $400 rent, that's less than my tax/water bill alone. $300/mo here might get you an upstairs room in a condemned house that is being used to sell fentanyl out of.

Sounds about right.

A crappy roach/rat house "studio" is like $1200/month here and a decent 1 room apartment is like $1600.
I'm sure it's a lot more in Seattle or the more desirable cities around here.

 

[EliteRetard]

I drive less than you, averaging 80 miles/month. My insurance? Well, I guess it's 250k, but I haven't made an insurance claim or been in an accident since the 1960's, if then. I drive very little but am a really good (DEFENSIVE!) driver. I don't care if I'm cutting off 5 seconds here, 10 seconds there. That's for assholes.

$400-500 rent sounds like a lot to me because I was paying less than $250/month until I bought this house. The landlord had to sell cause they were behind on taxes. I scraped the money together and now I own the house where I shared and rented. It's run down (built in 1910!), but in a way that may be good for me. I can be perfectionistic but it doesn't make sense to be that here, so it's a wash.

I didn't pay taxes this or last year. I have some investment loss to carry forward so I file. That should pay for my Turbotax by and by.

I have internet, gigabit fiber. ~$60/month. I have a cell phone too. Occasionally I need one but I rarely use it for calls. $10/month plan, doesn't break the bank. I am not wedded to my cell phone. I use some apps way more than the data/calling feature. My main phone is the free nationwide calling that's a perk for my internet... yeah, land line.

I have medicare, which costs me around $100/month, and get social security, not a lot, less than most people, but it's signficant and dependable.

I inherited a chunk of money, which I'm trying to grow because, like a friend said, living frugally "gets old." It's fun to spend money sometimes. Not being able to kind of sucks. I really know how to be frugal, I literally have been thinking of writing a book on it. I'm very expert, at least about a lot of it.

It's 140 miles round trip to my dads, my sister is about 100 miles.
I do still have to drive a few miles to get to a bank, cash only for rent each month.
Houses out here start at $500k, and renting your own apartment starts around $1,200.

I used to be accident free, but I did make one mistake several years back.
No injuries, no airbags or anything...pretty mild but it still counts (still mad at myself).

Funny thing is it actually lowered my insurance, and the incident didn't go on record.
Everybody here insists I'm a horrific driver because I follow the rules and drive smart.
Apparently the right way to drive is with your head up your ass and pedal to the floor.
If you obey a single rule, or even look at the road once while driving you're doing it wrong.

The reason I have such high coverage is because everything is insanely expensive here.
I don't want to get stuck covering the difference, or skimp on medical if anything happens.

If I didn't already have two middle names, one of them would be frugal.
It's not about being a stingy cheap ass, you gotta do research and find good value (point where price and quality meet).
It pisses me off that people insist everything be as expensive as possible, so they can brag about how much they waste.
Since there's no longer market for it, it has become harder and harder to find anything of good value.
Even the expensive stuff now is frequently garbage, because people don't want quality goods.

Even if frugal "gets old", what else is there? I can travel anywhere anytime I want, but why?
I've tried it twice, went to Japan for 3 months and also took a few months to cross country the USA.
Actually traveled a lot as a kid with a military family. Seeing the US again wasn't anything special.
Japan was worth visiting, but I wouldn't want to go again unless I could just stay there.
I could try another country, but again what's the point. Just makes the US suck more.

Anyway, I stopped pursuing money because I realize I'll never be able to change my situation.
I am actually retarded in real life, and I'll never be able to make enough money to do anything different.
Why waste my life working to make somebody else rich if it gets me nothing in return.
Oh a more expensive and less reliable car! My own crappy apartment, instead of sharing? Yay!

I'm not opposed to working my ass off, most of the stuff I do is very laborious and injurious.
Heck I broke up a concrete driveway, dug out 8 inches, packed down gravel and laid pavers all by hand.
If I'm always gonna get shit pay at least I can chose when, where, why, and for who I work.

If some magical fairy got me a job I could do for $50/hr then I'd certainly rejoin the workforce.
Skill/talent/effort and actual results don't matter, it's how you look/act and what some paper degree says.

 

[skull]

I'm not opposed to working my ass off, most of the stuff I do is very laborious and injurious.
Heck I broke up a concrete driveway, dug out 8 inches, packed down gravel and laid pavers all by hand.
If I'm always gonna get shit pay at least I can chose when, where, why, and for who I work.

If some magical fairy got me a job I could do for $50/hr then I'd certainly rejoin the workforce.
Skill/talent/effort and actual results don't matter, it's how you look/act and what some paper degree says.

Stop thinking your labor isn't worth money, your self employed not retired, charge like it. I'm in a low cost of living area and self employed people doing BS jobs can make $30-50/hr. If skill talent and effort don't matter then I wouldn't bill out at $95/hr as an uneducated former heroin addict hillbilly with a record. I see people on jobs all the time and think who the fuck would hire that loser yet there they are. I do actually look and act professional for the most part but not exactly.

 

[mopardude87]

I would be content with just 3 million, if i had to pick a number.

Buy a cheap small 1 bedroom house as its just me, buy a few vehicles at max. Furnish the house then i would simply put the rest away and live off it for the rest of my life. I am simple enough, i don't need to go all MTV Cribs with the house either . If i budget the left over savings right, that is about $2,000 per month for 50 years. Calculations i did suggest i should also have about $800k at bare minimum still in the bank for those what if situations as well. Stuff like car repairs, home repairs and property taxes certainly would fall under that budget.

 

[skull]

Moneys one of those things, I'm content now with 100k in the bank making 80k/yr living on 20k/yr. I don't need anything but there is a couple things I want and will eventually get. I'd still like the security of a lot more money in the bank. As it is though I feel like I got FU money. It helps being self employed cuz I can tell people to fuck off but it don't mean I'm completely out of work just that one customer/job. I generally take my ass to work though, I'd get bored sitting around the house and I like what I do.