How much money is enough?

[nakedfrog]

I can call, text, use GPS, browse the web, remote into my computer, etc with a Sanyo SCP-8400.
It doesn't require you to give away your life/identity, has a headphone jack, and can easily swap batteries.
I got it free with a cell plan, and for a long time I had unlimited Sprint service for $25/month.

All that said, I no longer need GPS, or the web, or a camera, or anything like that on a phone.

That's fine, my point is you're way overselling what it takes to have a modern phone.

Holy crap even in my small city a typical rent is at least $900. I can't even imagine $400 rent, that's less than my tax/water bill alone. $300/mo here might get you an upstairs room in a condemned house that is being used to sell fentanyl out of.

In my small town, you can get a reasonable two bedroom apartment for $550 (USD, of course, not CAD)

Sounds about right.

A crappy roach/rat house "studio" is like $1200/month here and a decent 1 room apartment is like $1600.
I'm sure it's a lot more in Seattle or the more desirable cities around here.

That sounds pretty much in line with Seattle prices, honestly, I'd think you could do better in Tacoma or Puyallup or something. I'm looking at renting a house for not much more than that there.

 

[dullard]

most of the stuff I do is very laborious and injurious.
Heck I broke up a concrete driveway, dug out 8 inches, packed down gravel and laid pavers all by hand.
If I'm always gonna get shit pay at least I can chose when, where, why, and for who I work.

I think this one section answers the confusion that we had with your posts. That quote above, to me, is not the definition of being retired. You do have income. It is just non-traditional and sporadic. Basically you are an occasional day laborer / contractor. Your numbers just didn't add up without that.

 

[Muse]

It's 140 miles round trip to my dads, my sister is about 100 miles.
I do still have to drive a few miles to get to a bank, cash only for rent each month.
Houses out here start at $500k, and renting your own apartment starts around $1,200.

I used to be accident free, but I did make one mistake several years back.
No injuries, no airbags or anything...pretty mild but it still counts (still mad at myself).

Funny thing is it actually lowered my insurance, and the incident didn't go on record.
Everybody here insists I'm a horrific driver because I follow the rules and drive smart.
Apparently the right way to drive is with your head up your ass and pedal to the floor.
If you obey a single rule, or even look at the road once while driving you're doing it wrong.

The reason I have such high coverage is because everything is insanely expensive here.
I don't want to get stuck covering the difference, or skimp on medical if anything happens.

If I didn't already have two middle names, one of them would be frugal.
It's not about being a stingy cheap ass, you gotta do research and find good value (point where price and quality meet).
It pisses me off that people insist everything be as expensive as possible, so they can brag about how much they waste.
Since there's no longer market for it, it has become harder and harder to find anything of good value.
Even the expensive stuff now is frequently garbage, because people don't want quality goods.

Even if frugal "gets old", what else is there? I can travel anywhere anytime I want, but why?
I've tried it twice, went to Japan for 3 months and also took a few months to cross country the USA.
Actually traveled a lot as a kid with a military family. Seeing the US again wasn't anything special.
Japan was worth visiting, but I wouldn't want to go again unless I could just stay there.
I could try another country, but again what's the point. Just makes the US suck more.

Anyway, I stopped pursuing money because I realize I'll never be able to change my situation.
I am actually retarded in real life, and I'll never be able to make enough money to do anything different.
Why waste my life working to make somebody else rich if it gets me nothing in return.
Oh a more expensive and less reliable car! My own crappy apartment, instead of sharing? Yay!

I'm not opposed to working my ass off, most of the stuff I do is very laborious and injurious.
Heck I broke up a concrete driveway, dug out 8 inches, packed down gravel and laid pavers all by hand.
If I'm always gonna get shit pay at least I can chose when, where, why, and for who I work.

If some magical fairy got me a job I could do for $50/hr then I'd certainly rejoin the workforce.
Skill/talent/effort and actual results don't matter, it's how you look/act and what some paper degree says.

When we rented here, at least the last 15+ years, I was the guy who collected the rent from my roomies and literally brought it on my bicycle to the property manager. He insisted on that for some reason, rather than it being sent. IIRC it's because there was one instance of a problem, guess a bounced check. Anyway, I was in no position to argue.

Yeah, bicycle. I went for around 20 years with no car. For some of that I didn't even have a bicycle (someone stole mine!). I still bicycle, even roller skate. Right now, sheltering, the only driving I'm doing is a 15-20 mile ride on the freeway to keep the car functioning.

Everybody's such a stupid driver and cost of living is so high where you are, maybe you should move somewhere else.

I'm almost done watching Ken Burns' The National Parks series and it makes me dream of getting an RV and just visiting the national parks as a kind of way of life! Did you see national parks when you last toured the USA? My dad took us on a 2 week tour of major NPs in the west in 1957 or so. We more or less saw them from the car! Well, we didn't stay in the car, we stayed in motels, ate at diners. Cool, but not all it could be if actually camp and hike.

Alan Watts said the only good reason to leave your house is to see the wonders of the world. So yeah, travel to see that. Don't think that there isn't wonderful experience out there you could experience.

Uh, not all the USA sucks. Big place, lots of variation, I figure.

I know a guy who's not a general contractor but he has a license who paints houses, has most of his life. Makes pretty decent money. He works when he wants to, by himself. Gets jobs here and there. Has his own place in the boonies, a couple of dogs. You don't have to just do manual labor. Painting isn't hard, you learn it. He says read the instructions and follow them, i.e. what it says on the paint cans, etc.

Keep your eyes and ears open and don't get discouraged, don't say "oh, I won't be able to do that, no opportunity is going to come my way." Opportunities do come one way or another. When one door closes, another opens - Bob Marley.

 

[ponyo]

I think this one section answers the confusion that we had with your posts. That quote above, to me, is not the definition of being retired. You do have income. It is just non-traditional and sporadic. Basically you are an occasional day laborer / contractor. Your numbers just didn't add up without that.

Correct. EliteRetard is unemployed, not retired. He's occasional day laborer. Maybe that's his definition of retirement, but I don't think anyone but him will call that retirement. I would argue homeless person is closer to true retirement than him.

Nothing against people who live minimalist lifestyle. I see the appeal. If I was single, I would definitely try it. But I have wife and daughter to provide for and to take care of. My wife isn't extremely high maintenance but like most females she does like to be spoiled and pampered. She doesn't want to live minimalist lifestyle. I've taken lot less risk in life because of my family but I also worked crazy hard over the years because I wanted to provide the best for them. I told my wife when she married me that she would never have to work another paycheck job. And I kept that promise. She's done fantastic job raising my daughter as stay at home mom while I concentrated 100% on my business ventures.

 

[Paratus]

A lot of you don't understand the concept of FU money apparently.

There are multiple definitions:

1) Some people say it is the point at which you can tell your boss that you are through with his/her crap and walk away without worry. You have enough wealth that you are okay until you get another job.

2) Other people say that you can tell Money itself that you are through worrying and can never think about Money again. You have enough wealth that at your current lifestyle you never need another job or to even worry if your investments are sufficient.

3) I could see some people thinking that it is a level at which you can have any lifestyle, but that is not a normal definition.

First place I heard the term FU money was in the Neil Stephenson novel Cryptonomicon.

Multiply those two things together and you get the kind of exponential growth that should get us all into fuck-you money before we turn forty.
This is an allusion to a Randy/Avi conversation of two years ago wherein Avi actually calculated a specific numerical value for "fuck-you money." It was not a fixed constant, however, but rather a cell in a spreadsheet linked to any number of continually fluctuating economic indicators. Sometimes when Avi is working at his computer he will leave the spreadsheet running in a tiny window in the corner so that he can see the current value of "fuck-you money" at a glance.

Sadly I don’t think we’ll ever get to FU money. I think we’ll be able to retire comfortably and easily compared to most but not early enough to call it FU money.

 

[EliteRetard]

I think this one section answers the confusion that we had with your posts. That quote above, to me, is not the definition of being retired. You do have income. It is just non-traditional and sporadic. Basically you are an occasional day laborer / contractor. Your numbers just didn't add up without that.

I am curious, what's your definition of retired?

Sit in a rocking chair all day every day and stare angrily at anyone who walks by?

To me retired means I can do whatever, whenever. It doesn't mean you immediately stop doing everything.

I know retired people who run farms and gardens, make and sell quilts and other items, work on cars, work on PCs/electronics etc.

And it's not because they have to.

 

[dullard]

I am curious, what's your definition of retired?

I tend to go with the typical dictionary definition. Most are similar to this: "If someone is retired, they have stopped working permanently, usually because of age". https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/retired

I suppose if we wanted to be fancy, we could also go by the IRS's definition of active income. "Partaking for more than 100 hours and based on all the facts and circumstances, on a regular, continuous, and substantial basis." https://www.investopedia.com/terms/m/material-participation-test.asp

 

[Mai72]

Won't stop, can't stop until I get those MILLIONS!

 

[Stopsignhank]

Did you ever notice that any thread about money always evolves into who is the most frugal/cheapest?

My wife and I make a good amount of money and we enjoy our money. Since I am superstitious I will leave that statement there and not say anything about retirement.

 

[Mai72]

I am curious, what's your definition of retired?

Sit in a rocking chair all day every day and stare angrily at anyone who walks by?

To me retired means I can do whatever, whenever. It doesn't mean you immediately stop doing everything.

I know retired people who run farms and gardens, make and sell quilts and other items, work on cars, work on PCs/electronics etc.

And it's not because they have to.

i've posted here in the past of early retirement or FIRE. I'm not on board with the traditional concept of retirement. That you work for 40 years, and you magically reitre and that is when you can live life and enjoy the things that you wanted to do when you're young, but couldn't because you were busy working all day. There is absolutely nothing wrong with work, and hard work brings a lot of benefits. But, I've also seen people die in their late 50s, and 60s, A time when they should had been winding down, or retired by society standards. For example, my mom passed away at 64. My uncle passed away at 58. A coworkers father died at 61. There are just too many things that can happen (health wise) as you get older. Also, this golden years talk is bullshit. The golden years are normally filled with body pain, loss of energy, depression, and other body ailments that happen with age.

Why can't the mindset be "I'm going to retire at 45 so I can do the things I want while I'm young?" I know that is going to be different for other people. Don't wait to travel the world at 65 when you're on the back end of your life. Do it at 35, 45, or even 55. Do it while you still have the energy, and drive. Just my opinion. There is no correct answer, because everyone is different, and they want different life experiences. I love traveling abroad. Other people hate traveling to other countries. People are too conditioned to think that this is how you have to do it. It's not true. 100 years ago retirement wasn't even a thought. Retire at 65 has been ingrained in our culture for the last 50 years. I say, lets think differently about this.

 

[dullard]

I say, lets think differently about this.

I too have seen many people die within a couple years of retirement. Working all the time just to die just as you finally get to enjoy it is not for me.

Financially, for most people, if they spend ~85% of what they earn and save ~15% then they can stop working at the typical retirement age with the exact same income as before. I think we can apply a similar mentality to life enjoyment. Spend 85% of your free time during your working years doing what you want (having fun, travelling, etc), and 15% of your free time preparing for later.

I agree with you though, traveling abroad is fantastic. Up until this year, I've been on a long streak of visiting ~2 countries per year. And not just being in a country for a moment on a rush tour. But, really visiting a country spending a week or two there. It really pains me to have to cancel 3 small vacations this year already and not even attempting to plan for the big international trip at all.

 

[brianmanahan]

Did you ever notice that any thread about money always evolves into who is the most frugal/cheapest?

uh, did you ever read an alkemyst or madoka thread?

 

[EliteRetard]

When we rented here, at least the last 15+ years, I was the guy who collected the rent from my roomies and literally brought it on my bicycle to the property manager. He insisted on that for some reason, rather than it being sent. IIRC it's because there was one instance of a problem, guess a bounced check. Anyway, I was in no position to argue.

Yeah, bicycle. I went for around 20 years with no car. For some of that I didn't even have a bicycle (someone stole mine!). I still bicycle, even roller skate. Right now, sheltering, the only driving I'm doing is a 15-20 mile ride on the freeway to keep the car functioning.

Everybody's such a stupid driver and cost of living is so high where you are, maybe you should move somewhere else.

I'm almost done watching Ken Burns' The National Parks series and it makes me dream of getting an RV and just visiting the national parks as a kind of way of life! Did you see national parks when you last toured the USA? My dad took us on a 2 week tour of major NPs in the west in 1957 or so. We more or less saw them from the car! Well, we didn't stay in the car, we stayed in motels, ate at diners. Cool, but not all it could be if actually camp and hike.

Alan Watts said the only good reason to leave your house is to see the wonders of the world. So yeah, travel to see that. Don't think that there isn't wonderful experience out there you could experience.

Uh, not all the USA sucks. Big place, lots of variation, I figure.

I know a guy who's not a general contractor but he has a license who paints houses, has most of his life. Makes pretty decent money. He works when he wants to, by himself. Gets jobs here and there. Has his own place in the boonies, a couple of dogs. You don't have to just do manual labor. Painting isn't hard, you learn it. He says read the instructions and follow them, i.e. what it says on the paint cans, etc.

Keep your eyes and ears open and don't get discouraged, don't say "oh, I won't be able to do that, no opportunity is going to come my way." Opportunities do come one way or another. When one door closes, another opens - Bob Marley.

Nothing wrong with bikes, I'd probably be doing that if my family weren't so far.
I actually did bike quite a bit when I lived closer to my Mom, it was enjoyable.

Since I do have a vehicle though, I use it.
Kinda like you, the short trips I use it for are just to circulate fluids and the like.

I actually wouldn't mind moving elsewhere, except I'm strongly attached to family.
They frequently need help, and my dad especially frequently needs in home medical care.
Also since most of them only make $80-90k they often need loans, there's about $30k outstanding.

I have fond memories of traveling the US as a kid. I was also a very active scout my entire childhood.
As an adult it's mostly a miserable experience, you can't just show up to enjoy a place.
Driving is miserable, there's tons of hassle and expense, need to plan and sign up for everything.
Then when you arrive there's a bunch of assholes and garbage everywhere.
It just doesn't have the magic like it did when I was a kid, and now it feels like just another tree or rock.

I'm not the type of person to stick my head in the sand, and I'm willing to try just about anything once.
At the same time though you've got to be realistic, I've got no official "education" and little experience.
I worked part time for Costco a few years, then ran an industrial laser and metal fab shop for a few more.
In the eyes of the working world I'm retarded, a lot older, and less qualified than any college student.

There's no realistic way for me to start a career at this point, or ever earn enough to change my situation.
Just kinda got an unlucky start, nobodies fault and not an excuse. Just reality, and it happens to many.
I don't think I bitch and complain though, if anything I think I'm trying to be an example of how to live properly.

Stop with all the disgusting greed, vanity, and waste. Anybody can live a decent life, even on minimum wage.
Nobody DESERVES anything, nothing is a birth right. Be ethical, work hard, and you will get everything you NEED.
Working hard doesn't have to be at a job either. I work hard to be frugal (like shared living) and I save/invest.

 

[EliteRetard]

Did you ever notice that any thread about money always evolves into who is the most frugal/cheapest?

My wife and I make a good amount of money and we enjoy our money. Since I am superstitious I will leave that statement there and not say anything about retirement.

It's not really about who is the most frugal or cheapest. It's about sharing information.
There's nothing wrong with being rich, but often it's the richest people who have the poorest life.

We're just trying to let them know they can stop and smell the flowers now.

 

[skyking]

I did a fair amount of running around the country when I was flying the plane. I was doing the "dessert before dinner" thing for most of the 90's and 00's. I posted up some threads about that.
Now I really can't get back into spending that kind of money larking around in a plane, the costs have gone a little crazy. We think of the traditional RV travel and cruises, etc.
I busted my ass today out in the sun, working on the equipment. Worked harder than I have in a year, having two rotator cuff surgeries and way too much time off in the last year.
I worry about what will happen with my physical self when I quit working.
I don't gym well, but working seems easier. I don't want to retire and just fade.

 

[Spacehead]

Why can't the mindset be "I'm going to retire at 45 so I can do the things I want while I'm young?"

Sounds good, but it's hard to get people to save when they're younger to be able to do that. Now, with my vast knowledge , i try telling young people i know to get saving now.

 

[Scarpozzi]

Sounds good, but it's hard to get people to save when they're younger to be able to do that. Now, with my vast knowledge , i try telling young people i know to get saving now.

I started saving when I was 21, but apparently it wasn't enough. You really have to throw cash at savings every chance you get and make it a game. Try not to buy junk you don't need.

 

[Spacehead]

I started saving when I was 21, but apparently it wasn't enough. You really have to throw cash at savings every chance you get and make it a game. Try not to buy junk you don't need.

Yeah, i started saving early too but not nearly enough. I'd try to make it "another monthly bill" like i was told, then something would come & i wouldn't add anything for awhile.
I think i was 30-35 years old before i had a job with a 401K or any other kind a plan, so that helped a bit. Luckily for me i've kinda caught up the last 10 years or so.
The IRA contribution limits really hurt now though. Wish they would up that.

 

[Dr. Detroit]

Financial Independence is real - the ability to say FU to your job, walk away, be able to afford the time off and then relax and come back later to find a new one. To me that was $1.5M.

The ability to retire early is another level of FU and that number continues to change. How do you walk away from a great paying job when the economy is in flux so you sit back, work hard, one more year, and one more year and one more year .......... while you stack cash and fully fund your 401K.

$4M is the current goal

 

[Scarpozzi]

Yeah, i started saving early too but not nearly enough. I'd try to make it "another monthly bill" like i was told, then something would come & i wouldn't add anything for awhile.
I think i was 30-35 years old before i had a job with a 401K or any other kind a plan, so that helped a bit. Luckily for me i've kinda caught up the last 10 years or so.
The IRA contribution limits really hurt now though. Wish they would up that.

I turn 40 in 3 weeks. I'm excited to think about saving for the next 15-25 years after I'm debt free. I've basically slaved away since I was 19 years old. I was only debt free for 3 weeks back in 2009 since I started working...I was between houses and was able to pay off my car note. I can't wait to have that feeling again. To work, get a paycheck, and know that I can do anything I want with it. (like save 50% of it)

One thing to consider. If you're saving, make sure you consider doing Roth IRA contributions. The biggest advantage of the Roth isn't just not being taxed on the earnings. It also allows you to pad your income in retirement without having to adjust your taxable income. In other words, you won't be taxed on withdrawals...so if you buy a car at the age of 68, you could pull a sum of money out of your Roth and still remain in a lower tax bracket. Just something to consider while saving up for a convertible.

 

[MagnusTheBrewer]

The majority of people can't honestly answer the question because they've never thought about what that want from life. They just work to buy more expensive toys.

 

[Muse]

I worry about what will happen with my physical self when I quit working.
I don't gym well, but working seems easier. I don't want to retire and just fade.

Gym's been closed since middle March, last time I was in there was March 10. I'm slowly setting up my biggest bedroom to be my personal in-home gym. Meantime I've been doing a lot of stuff around the house (1910 built fixer-upper). Finally finished a project I've had mostly on back burner for 2+ months, being to repair/replace the shelves in the pantry, whaled on it for two days and finished yesterday. The projects around the house are semi-physical. I've been feeling mostly absolutely great, but figure I can thank my decades of constant gym work for that and that if I don't get back into a regular gym routine I won't feel so good by and by... so, I plan to institute an at-home routine that approximates what I was doing in the gym, including the 5 miles each way on bike+skates (yeah, I did both, biking 1/2 way, then skating the other 1/2). I have a bike trainer in that room! Doing the heart rate monitor thing on the trainer.

 

[Geekbabe]

My rent in Boston is $1,700 a month, 2 bedroom, no utilities, in fact we have to pay to have the furnace inspected yearly. No patio, no yard. We are lucky to have it because we can keep our 2 cats who are like family..and we get one parking spot. They are also pretty careful here, the other 3 tenants in the house are tolerable. We really like the young couple next door.

 

[skyking]

This thread got me to thinking about it, about when and how much. I think we may retire in two years, even in the face of both of us making good wages, the most in our lives. We will certainly look at it. WTF is money if you don't get to enjoy it?

 

[Spacehead]

One thing to consider. If you're saving, make sure you consider doing Roth IRA contributions. The biggest advantage of the Roth isn't just not being taxed on the earnings. It also allows you to pad your income in retirement without having to adjust your taxable income. In other words, you won't be taxed on withdrawals...so if you buy a car at the age of 68, you could pull a sum of money out of your Roth and still remain in a lower tax bracket. Just something to consider while saving up for a convertible.

Yep, got a Roth & traditional IRA & another mutual fund account i pay taxes on each year. Basically a savings account i can pull money from if needed, no penalties.
Over the years the limits on the IRA have been like 5K to this year 7K. I max that out & put the rest in the mutual fund account.