How many racist comments in the example?

[Exophase]

Seems to fit the definition of racial stereotyping, so yes. You have to understand that if we follow the technical definition of racism, then not all racism is malicious.

You can find many varying definitions of racism, there isn't any individual authoritative technical definition. Most if not all of them do explicitly include or imply prejudice, which is actually critical.

Here's the thing: if you're going to get on people for using language that could offend people regardless of technical then you should also acknowledge that the term racist has very loaded connotations to most people. You can't argue that calling people savages is racist because it could have been used with prejudice towards someone's race but saying people like Isaiah Dolezal are promoting racism is innocuous because it's technically true. Saying someone is being a racist will probably more often than not offend them and be viewed as harsh criticism.

You have a source for that quote by the way?

She actually says it's from one of her sons. It's unclear if that means the brother she gained custody of or her actual biological son (born to a black father), but this is the quote:

"One of my sons yesterday (told me), 'Mom, racially you're human and culturally you're black.' I do know that they support the way I identify. And they support me."

http://www.cnn.com/2015/06/16/us/washington-rachel-dolezal-naacp/index.html

Here's a black journalist that supports the culturally black sentiment:

She shouldn’t have lied, and of course she can’t really ‘be’ black. But if she wants to be culturally black, why can’t she?

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articl...zal-says-she-s-black-she-s-black-sort-of.html

Putting aside whether or not any racial stereotype should be called racism, I think you're being WAY too dogmatic about language if you think referring to a "black culture" is a stereotyping black people. It's saying that there's a strong correlation between being black and having a particular culture, one that's mostly limited to black people. It's not saying that

I'm Jewish, but I only say that because my parents were Jewish and I've genetically inherited some recognizable Jewish phenotypes, but I there isn't an awful lot about how I live my life that's very identifiably Jewish. So in other words, I'm basically using the term as a race, albeit one with far weaker differentiators than how people generally refer to being black. If someone hates me solely for being Jewish I would consider that racism, unless they're basing that hate on incorrect assumptions of my lifestyle. I'm not "culturally Jewish" at all, but I'm not at all offended by a concept of "Jewish culture." Should I be?

Are you saying this school administration's list is somehow applicable to you or me?

I think most of it is as applicable to the teachers as it would be to you or me. If you shouldn't say something to a child you're teaching because it's probably not going to be something that's okay to say in any other context.

 

[werepossum]

Nice straw man. I'll tell you what, since you want to remain in full retard mode, I'll just put out a simple example for you.

Black guy walks into a suburban bar wearing normal business-casual attire and orders a beer. One of the three white guys next to him looks at him and says loudly to his other two friends "I didn't know this bar was in the ghetto."

And this black man cares about what the racist thinks because . . .

You missed my earlier point. If there is nothing ghetto about this man, the statement is no different from him saying "I didn't know this bar was for fat people." People can only insult you if you give their opinions power. In much the same way, supposing a follower of Fharakhan looks at me and tells his buddy "I didn't know this bar was for devils created by an evil magician to bedevil the superior black race, the only true humans." Do you suppose I am insulted, or laughing?

 

[dank69]

And this black man cares about what the racist thinks because . . .

You missed my earlier point. If there is nothing ghetto about this man, the statement is no different from him saying "I didn't know this bar was for fat people." People can only insult you if you give their opinions power. In much the same way, supposing a follower of Fharakhan looks at me and tells his buddy "I didn't know this bar was for devils created by an evil magician to bedevil the superior black race, the only true humans." Do you suppose I am insulted, or laughing?

So explain where the line is between the example I gave and the same situation except instead of the ghetto line the white guy just calls him the n-word. I assume you wouldn't still blame the black guy for giving that word power.

 

[dank69]

You can find many varying definitions of racism, there isn't any individual authoritative technical definition. Most if not all of them do explicitly include or imply prejudice, which is actually critical.

Here's the thing: if you're going to get on people for using language that could offend people regardless of technical then you should also acknowledge that the term racist has very loaded connotations to most people. You can't argue that calling people savages is racist because it could have been used with prejudice towards someone's race but saying people like Isaiah Dolezal are promoting racism is innocuous because it's technically true. Saying someone is being a racist will probably more often than not offend them and be viewed as harsh criticism.



She actually says it's from one of her sons. It's unclear if that means the brother she gained custody of or her actual biological son (born to a black father), but this is the quote:



http://www.cnn.com/2015/06/16/us/washington-rachel-dolezal-naacp/index.html

Here's a black journalist that supports the culturally black sentiment:



http://www.thedailybeast.com/articl...zal-says-she-s-black-she-s-black-sort-of.html

Putting aside whether or not any racial stereotype should be called racism, I think you're being WAY too dogmatic about language if you think referring to a "black culture" is a stereotyping black people. It's saying that there's a strong correlation between being black and having a particular culture, one that's mostly limited to black people. It's not saying that

I'm Jewish, but I only say that because my parents were Jewish and I've genetically inherited some recognizable Jewish phenotypes, but I there isn't an awful lot about how I live my life that's very identifiably Jewish. So in other words, I'm basically using the term as a race, albeit one with far weaker differentiators than how people generally refer to being black. If someone hates me solely for being Jewish I would consider that racism, unless they're basing that hate on incorrect assumptions of my lifestyle. I'm not "culturally Jewish" at all, but I'm not at all offended by a concept of "Jewish culture." Should I be?



I think most of it is as applicable to the teachers as it would be to you or me. If you shouldn't say something to a child you're teaching because it's probably not going to be something that's okay to say in any other context.

I am using the broadest official definition of the word racism.

As for the whole Jewish thing, you acknowledge that you see it both as a race and as a religion. I believe the concept of Jewish culture is tied to the religion and not the racial aspect. Do you disagree?

As for who the list is applicable to, I am just trying to make it clear that I personally am not saying people shouldn't use these words or phrases. I am saying that people who use them should be prepared for possible misunderstandings that arise from their use and understand that they certainly can be offensive.

 

[michal1980]

I am using the broadest official definition of the word racism.
.

NOOOO. Really?

to you everything is racist.

 

[dank69]

NOOOO. Really?

to you everything is racist.

Yes. To me, and Oxford, all racial stereotyping qualifies as racism.

Of course to someone like you who has very few brain cells to rub together, it may seem like "everything."

 

[Svnla]

From Merriam - Webster:

: poor treatment of or violence against people because of their race
: the belief that some races of people are better than others

Full definition:

1
: a belief that race is the primary determinant of human traits and capacities and that racial differences produce an inherent superiority of a particular race
2
: racial prejudice or discrimination

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/racist

 

[soulcougher73]

Again, it doesn't matter how you use it or what you mean when you do. The problem is that many people have used it as a substitute for the n-word and as such it is now becoming a code word for racists to express their racism while maintaining plausible deniability. The same is true of the word thug, and because it is common knowledge that these words can be used pejoratively, using them puts you at increased risk for someone to think you are using them pejoratively.

OR they could just be describing said peoples actions. 2 sides to everything.

 

[dank69]

OR they could just be describing said peoples actions. 2 sides to everything.

Yes they could be. Plausible deniability. However, many people fall into predictable patterns.

 

[realibrad]

Any logical person would take what I said, and understand that I am advocating not taking every opportunity possible to label every black person behaving badly as a savage if they don't want to appear racist to everyone paying attention. The people that do that should be shamed. I even explicitly said using the term is fine, it's just when someone uses it over and over for a very specific purpose is when I will call them out. You have a problem with this correct interpretation of my words?

So what is the point of shaming other than to hurt people's feelings to get them to not use the word?

You are not advocating informing people. You are advocating the purposeful feeling of...

a painful feeling of humiliation or distress caused by the consciousness of wrong or foolish behavior

You seem to think that your shaming does not imply you are trying to stop anything. If its not to stop someone from doing something, what is your goal?

 

[Thebobo]

I don't find them to be.

Guess it depends in context.

 

[dank69]

So what is the point of shaming other than to hurt people's feelings to get them to not use the word?

You are not advocating informing people. You are advocating the purposeful feeling of...



You seem to think that your shaming does not imply you are trying to stop anything. If its not to stop someone from doing something, what is your goal?

Yes, I would like to discourage the use of the word savage as a replacement for the n-word. I do not want to discourage the use of savage altogether. See the difference?

 

[OCNewbie]

So explain where the line is between the example I gave and the same situation except instead of the ghetto line the white guy just calls him the n-word. I assume you wouldn't still blame the black guy for giving that word power.

Actually, it's still the black guy that is choosing to give that word power. Being offended is a choice, believe it or not.

 

[werepossum]

So explain where the line is between the example I gave and the same situation except instead of the ghetto line the white guy just calls him the n-word. I assume you wouldn't still blame the black guy for giving that word power.

No, I would not blame him for giving that word power; I think it has been used so long and with such hatred that it has power to anyone, which is a shame. Note that its power can be removed - just look at all the blacks using it as a term of endearment. However, you can't simply seize every word that has ever been associated with some people who look like you and declare that those words are all racist. Ghetto has certain meanings, both connotations and denotations, none of which are specific to or limited to blacks. If a white person lives in the ghetto, it's still the ghetto. If a yellow or brown or red person lives in the ghetto, it's still the ghetto.

I started a book not too long ago on ancient civilizations of Africa. Dude was so hung up on words - can't use tribe, civilization, culture, city, etc. - that he never actually communicated much of interest, and every time he brought up some accomplishment he spent his time not talking about it but defending it against a myriad of imagined assaults.

 

[werepossum]

I am using the broadest official definition of the word racism.

As for the whole Jewish thing, you acknowledge that you see it both as a race and as a religion. I believe the concept of Jewish culture is tied to the religion and not the racial aspect. Do you disagree?

As for who the list is applicable to, I am just trying to make it clear that I personally am not saying people shouldn't use these words or phrases. I am saying that people who use them should be prepared for possible misunderstandings that arise from their use and understand that they certainly can be offensive.

It's probably worth pointing out here that some of the strongest ancient Jewish societies - like some of the strongest early Christian societies - were Ethiopians. I've even read speculation that the line of David (and therefore the line of Jesus) were Ethiopian Jews, although I doubt one could prove it either way. Even today under the boot of Islam, significant Jewish and Christian populations remain.

 

[OCNewbie]

Sorry to shatter your world but racial stereotyping is the definition of racism, even if there is no malice.

I disagree, as do many other sources for the definition of the word (including Oxford, which I noticed you referenced in another post).

I skirted the question because some things that people classify as part of black culture may not necessarily be so. I don't really know how you can define black culture anyway as black people come from a huge variety of backgrounds.

First off, be careful to deny that black culture exists, you may offend someone My understanding is that modern-day "black" culture is tied to the culture of black slaves in America. Doing a brief search on Google, I wasn't able to find anything concrete regarding the percentage of current African-American residents in the U.S. that are descendants of U.S. slaves. I read someone mention a number of only around 13% of blacks claiming to be first or second generation immigrants as of 1999 or 2000 (supposedly from census data). My assumption is that it's the significant majority of blacks living here in the U.S. currently.

Anyway, it most certainly IS a thing, though some may be uncomfortable with its labeling.

Turn it on yourself, can your culture be defined by the color of your skin? If you are white, what is white culture? Irish culture is a bit different than the culture of Italians. If you are Asian, same thing. Is Japanese culture the same as Chinese? Korean? Indian?

No, I don't think my culture can be. I know very little about my ancestry though. I'm white, and I think maybe I have some English ancestry, but I honestly am not aware of anyone in my family having done any sort of extensive (or not so extensive) genealogy research.

Black people in the U.S. are generally not in the same boat though. Those that descended from slavery can, to some degree, share many cultural traits based on the color of their skin. Slaves in the U.S. were essentially all black, were they not? If one is a descendant of American slaves, and there are still remnants of that culture kept alive, it's not totally inaccurate to label it "black" culture (since that is the most common denominator linking the various members of that cultural group together).

Just discussing it now it seems to me that the idea of black culture is a pretty racist construct.

Label it racist if you wish, but it's something that many black people embrace, and express pride in.

 

[dank69]

No, I would not blame him for giving that word power; I think it has been used so long and with such hatred that it has power to anyone, which is a shame. Note that its power can be removed - just look at all the blacks using it as a term of endearment. However, you can't simply seize every word that has ever been associated with some people who look like you and declare that those words are all racist. Ghetto has certain meanings, both connotations and denotations, none of which are specific to or limited to blacks. If a white person lives in the ghetto, it's still the ghetto. If a yellow or brown or red person lives in the ghetto, it's still the ghetto.

I started a book not too long ago on ancient civilizations of Africa. Dude was so hung up on words - can't use tribe, civilization, culture, city, etc. - that he never actually communicated much of interest, and every time he brought up some accomplishment he spent his time not talking about it but defending it against a myriad of imagined assaults.

So the line between the n-word and ghetto is how long it has been used and how hateful it was? That's really subjective. I mean, my whole point was that ghetto was actually used pejoratively more in the past than it is now, so I think it meets the longevity requirement. I think we can both agree that my specific example was pretty hateful.

I know all that about what ghetto means these days. I know it is no longer used to mean black neighborhood. The point was simply that it used to be synonymous with black neighborhood. Many racists still consider it to be synonymous and use it that way. Even if greater than 99% of current usage is benign, the history of the word increases the probability that someone might be offended by it.

 

[dank69]

I disagree, as do many other sources for the definition of the word (including Oxford, which I noticed you referenced in another post).

The word "especially" in the definition means that racial stereotyping does not always have to be a superiority/inferiority thing.
I know that most of the time racism is assumed to be discriminatory in nature, but literally that does not have to be the case. The important component is the stereotyping which is almost never a good thing even when meant in a positive manner.

First off, be careful to deny that black culture exists, you may offend someone My understanding is that modern-day "black" culture is tied to the culture of black slaves in America. Doing a brief search on Google, I wasn't able to find anything concrete regarding the percentage of current African-American residents in the U.S. that are descendants of U.S. slaves. I read someone mention a number of only around 13% of blacks claiming to be first or second generation immigrants as of 1999 or 2000 (supposedly from census data). My assumption is that it's the significant majority of blacks living here in the U.S. currently.

Anyway, it most certainly IS a thing, though some may be uncomfortable with its labeling.

I don't deny that it exists, I just don't know how one would define it, and it really isn't my place to try.

No, I don't think my culture can be. I know very little about my ancestry though. I'm white, and I think maybe I have some English ancestry, but I honestly am not aware of anyone in my family having done any sort of extensive (or not so extensive) genealogy research.

Black people in the U.S. are generally not in the same boat though. Those that descended from slavery can, to some degree, share many cultural traits based on the color of their skin. Slaves in the U.S. were essentially all black, were they not? If one is a descendant of American slaves, and there are still remnants of that culture kept alive, it's not totally inaccurate to label it "black" culture (since that is the most common denominator linking the various members of that cultural group together).

The key word here is generally. The term black culture may be a source of pride for one person and it may be deeply offensive to another. Both people would be completely justified in holding their individual viewpoints.

Label it racist if you wish, but it's something that many black people embrace, and express pride in.

Remember, when I label something as racist, it isn't necessarily meant in a discriminatory way. It just fits the definition of racial stereotyping.

 

[estarkey7]

Uh. It's no different than asking a woman about a womans perspective on something. Ask a woman about a situation involving a man/woman. They had a fight. Now ask a man about the same situation. I can guarantee you will get two different responses.

Culturally men and women are raised differently. So you will get different results. Just like culturally blacks and whites are raised differently.

Maybe you don't want that to be true, but it is.

What is this difference between how blacks and whites are raised? I can't wait to hear this explanation!

 

[dank69]

What is this difference between how blacks and whites are raised? I can't wait to hear this explanation!

It's amazing, isn't it? The level of conscious and subconscious racial stereotyping is unbelievable.

 

[estarkey7]

It's amazing, isn't it? The level of conscious and subconscious racial stereotyping is unbelievable.

Yeah really! I mean I guess we're supposed to be raised to beat our women, sell drugs, and climb the gang hierarchy in the Crips or Bloods; instead of serving in the Army, going to college, getting married, buying a house and being a Sr .software engineer like I did. Wow, black people must sure be disappointed in how I turned out!

 

[Cozarkian]

The word "especially" in the definition means that racial stereotyping does not always have to be a superiority/inferiority thing.
I know that most of the time racism is assumed to be discriminatory in nature, but literally that does not have to be the case. The important component is the stereotyping which is almost never a good thing even when meant in a positive manner.

The word especially, however, does not mean that no type of negativity is required. It is possible to express dislike for something without necessarily believing it is inferior. (E.g. "X" group of people are smelly, greedy liars, but I have to admit they throw a good party. I just hope I don't have to talk to any of them while I'm here.)


Common stereotypes like Asians are smart and Germans are efficient are not racist toward Asians/Germans. You will note Oxford's synonyms include prejudice, discrimination and bias, but not merely stereotyping.

 

[keird]

Yeah really! I mean I guess we're supposed to be raised to beat our women, sell drugs, and climb the gang hierarchy in the Crips or Bloods; instead of serving in the Army, going to college, getting married, buying a house and being a Sr .software engineer like I did. Wow, black people must sure be disappointed in how I turned out!

What did you do in the Army? I just retired from the Guard.

 

[estarkey7]

What did you do in the Army? I just retired from the Guard.

11 X-Ray Infantry Airborne.

 

[Exophase]

I am using the broadest official definition of the word racism.

What is this official definition? There's no official dictionary, just several generally highly acknowledged ones and they don't all fit your definition.

As for the whole Jewish thing, you acknowledge that you see it both as a race and as a religion. I believe the concept of Jewish culture is tied to the religion and not the racial aspect. Do you disagree?

Yes I disagree, there are many Jewish people who follow traditions or other aspects of culture without being religious at all.

If someone else who was very familiar with this looked closely at me I'm sure they'd find aspects of Jewish culture that I unconsciously exhibit simply by being raised by someone who follows a lot of it, even though I don't see it in myself.

As for who the list is applicable to, I am just trying to make it clear that I personally am not saying people shouldn't use these words or phrases. I am saying that people who use them should be prepared for possible misunderstandings that arise from their use and understand that they certainly can be offensive.

Of course it pays for people to be aware of what they might be communicating, deliberately or inadvertently, but calling someone's words racist because it could offend people is too much.