Whats cheaper? A baton, stun gun, pepper spray (not the stuff you buy at kmart). I like how you say they should've used alternatives. Well, they didnt have any at the moment. I am the only one who notices how many officers it took to subdue this man?
But the people crying Racism say "they should've just let him go, he wasn't hurting anyone, he was just Dancing like the Jolly Fat fellow he always is and he doesn't do drugs as far as they know."
So are they going to claim the drugs in his system was planted by the Coroner?
Originally posted by: dmcowen674
You should know by now I don't joke. With more and more out of Control "Animals", I don't care what "Color" or race, out there as you are seeing more and more on Police Videos it is obvious the existing methods do not work. Do you think using Clubs as if we are still in Cave Man times is anything above "Planet of the Apes" nets?
They said they were using "SOP", Standard Operating Procedure" for Police arrest. To club a person to death?
You can't say I'm some bleeding heart Liberal either. If I was up there in Ohio and there was no Nets available I would've at least called over a Fire Truck and knocked the guy on his Ass with a high powered blast from the Fire Hose.
They didn't "club him to death" if they wanted to kill or seriously harm him, they would have struck him on the head. A well aimed strike from an angled baton such as the ones they were using can easily kill or incapacitate someone(with a high risk of serious injury). He died from heart problems in combination with the drugs in his system after choosing to fight the police.
They were using SOP. Police are trained to use a "continuam of force". Ranging from verbal commands, pressure point holds and joint locks, batons, irritants suc as OC spray, in some situation other non-lethal weapons such as tasers or bean bags if available and appropriate, and finally lethal force if they feel thier lives or others are in danger.
From what I have seen on tape those officers responded admirably to the attack by the suspect. He went after them not the other way around, and they were using classic pain compliance methods using baton strikes on the extremities and fleshy parts of the body while continuing to order the suspect to comply. He didn't even feel it apparently, and the use of OC spray was also innefective which is not uncommon in subjects under the influence. In the end, he was only subdued by six men piling on and wrestling him to the ground. This was no beating, and it does not appear to be excessive in any way shape or form.
Enter the lawyers
"I think, though, after you see Mr. Jones go down and then come up on his knees on the tape, you will see ... his hands are open, his palms are open, they're not clenched in a fist in a fighting mode, he is trying to get into a surrender position."
The chief and the department should be commended for their handling of this. Once subdued they stopped. They didn't put a chokehold. They didn't hit his upper body. They didn't provoke the man. If there were any racists there, it was the man who died, calling out "white boy" and "redneck" before he started swinging. Where's the investigation into this racist attack on white officers?
When is Jesse going to arrive?
"I think, though, after you see Mr. Jones go down and then come up on his knees on the tape, you will see ... his hands are open, his palms are open, they're not clenched in a fist in a fighting mode, he is trying to get into a surrender position."
The chief and the department should be commended for their handling of this. Once subdued they stopped. They didn't put a chokehold. They didn't hit his upper body. They didn't provoke the man. If there were any racists there, it was the man who died, calling out "white boy" and "redneck" before he started swinging. Where's the investigation into this racist attack on white officers?
When is Jesse going to arrive?
Seriously, they kept beating the guy and didn't once try to cuff him. They kept jabbing him with the baton, no wonder he was trying to wrestle it out of their hands. I'm not experienced in these matters, and the guy was obviously quite a handful, but I would have thought that the cops would be more interested in cuffing the guy than in jabbing a baton into him.
Originally posted by: tnitsuj
Originally posted by: dmcowen674
You should know by now I don't joke. With more and more out of Control "Animals", I don't care what "Color" or race, out there as you are seeing more and more on Police Videos it is obvious the existing methods do not work. Do you think using Clubs as if we are still in Cave Man times is anything above "Planet of the Apes" nets?
They said they were using "SOP", Standard Operating Procedure" for Police arrest. To club a person to death?
You can't say I'm some bleeding heart Liberal either. If I was up there in Ohio and there was no Nets available I would've at least called over a Fire Truck and knocked the guy on his Ass with a high powered blast from the Fire Hose.
They didn't "club him to death" if they wanted to kill or seriously harm him, they would have struck him on the head. A well aimed strike from an angled baton such as the ones they were using can easily kill or incapacitate someone(with a high risk of serious injury). He died from heart problems in combination with the drugs in his system after choosing to fight the police.
They were using SOP. Police are trained to use a "continuam of force". Ranging from verbal commands, pressure point holds and joint locks, batons, irritants suc as OC spray, in some situation other non-lethal weapons such as tasers or bean bags if available and appropriate, and finally lethal force if they feel thier lives or others are in danger.
From what I have seen on tape those officers responded admirably to the attack by the suspect. He went after them not the other way around, and they were using classic pain compliance methods using baton strikes on the extremities and fleshy parts of the body while continuing to order the suspect to comply. He didn't even feel it apparently, and the use of OC spray was also innefective which is not uncommon in subjects under the influence. In the end, he was only subdued by six men piling on and wrestling him to the ground. This was no beating, and it does not appear to be excessive in any way shape or form.
i agree. very well put.
Gee, maybe he can't take a swing at you anymore if the hands are cuffed behind the back, right? What a concept.
I saw the same thing. These guys were beating him down for taking a swing at the first cop, plain and simple.
Hi,
The only question I have is what was going on while he was on the floor?
That is the only mitigating factor I see. When he was on his feet throwing punches he needed to be subdued/go down. When he was on the floor being repeatedly struck with the baton, how much of a struggle was he putting up?
That's it. Once that is ascertained it can be filed under the appropriate heading and everyone can move along.
Andy
The only question I have is what was going on while he was on the floor?
That is the only mitigating factor I see. When he was on his feet throwing punches he needed to be subdued/go down. When he was on the floor being repeatedly struck with the baton, how much of a struggle was he putting up?
That's it. Once that is ascertained it can be filed under the appropriate heading and everyone can move along.
Andy
Another AT armchair cop. Let's see. The guy just attacked you. He outweighs you by about 75 lbs and is acting totally insane. He tried to grab your gun. But he's on his hands and knees, not prone, not pinned to the ground. So now they try and cuff him?
I'm totally impressed how the cops acted on this one. This would be a total non-issue, except that he died (and that he is black, and that it was video taped). I've seen *much worse* on good old COPS on Fox (in fact, I remember an episode in Boston where a fat drugged black guy was naked and fighting the cops like crazy. They layed the nightsticks to him, and eventually got him to the ground also.) And my father-in-law can relate many other similar stories. He's suprised they didn't draw guns on him when he went for the gun (and shot him if he got it out or gained control of it). That's what he related he would have done and advised his staff to do (police lt. with 27 years experience).
how much do you hate cops rjain?
Well we already know where you stand on any kind of authority Dave.
Another AT Armchair Cop
Heh I like that one
You really need to stop watching so much TV. Contrary to popular belief Police officers are not invincible beings possessed of superhuman strength. It is almost impossible for your average police officer to using nothing but brute strength to "cuff someone". What you see as a simple concept is incredibly difficult to execute in a stressfull violent confrontation such as this.
The suspect has to comply or be made to comply in some way. These officers were attempting to do that the whole time. Notice that the entire time they were striking him with the batons they continued to order him to get down and put his hands behind his back? Not once did he comply with those orders so they continued using the baton blows and ground tactics to try and get him to comply. One officer even tried an irritant spray which did not work either.
That man was huge and far stronger than any of those officers even without the impact of the drugs. Normal methods of making him comply were not working. How exactly were they supposed to restrain him? The only time they were able to do so was when he had been wrestled to the ground by SIX officers and possibly had a heart attack.
As to the whole theory that these officers were punishing him for striking the original officers? BS. This whole incident happened in something like six minutes. Officers rolled up and piled on as soon as they got there with no discussion or awareness of anything other than that this subject was not yet under control. I don't see how you can get your "plain and simple" conlcusion there.
Maybe I should get 6 ATOT people together, give them some handcuffs and get they to try and restrain a 300+ pound man under the influence of multiple drugs.
The misinformation and bias here is incredible.
When I saw the tape I kept asking myself why they just didn't hit the guy in the head. It does look barbaric; at first I thought the one cop was circling to get a better whack at the poor guy, but I think he was just trying to do his best to get a view of something other than the guy's head.
Did they use excessive force? Hell if I know. They could very well have. But it looks like they also used a little constraint, they probably could've just beaned him a time or two in the head to subdue him, but that would've been a tad much, imo.
Did they use excessive force? Hell if I know. They could very well have. But it looks like they also used a little constraint, they probably could've just beaned him a time or two in the head to subdue him, but that would've been a tad much, imo.
Gaard, I was under the impression that hitting someone in the head with a baton or a fist or a boot was illegal.
I really have no idea. Maybe that was why the cop was circling, so he wouldn't illegally hit the guy in the head?
I would think so. I have some connection with law enforcement, and I tell you, if you are ever in a situation with police, just comply, because they will not (and should not, I think) risk their lives trying to cuff a suspect unless that suspect is fully cooperating. From what I've seen of the video, the suspect was not cooperating and they kept trying to subdue him in order to get the cuffs on.
The coroner did find no damage to the head or other critical parts, so it seems like the POs did their job right. It may look ugly to us non-police officers, but other POs will no doubt see it differently.
I hate cops as much as they hate people. Cops aren't there to hate, they're there to protect. But if you bothered to read instead of simply lashing out, you wouldn't need to ask these kinds of questions.
Your position was they were continuing to "beat" him instead of cuff him. You are implying they acted out of hate and acted improperly. There's got to be some kind of anti-cop angst in you.
alchemize: I dunno, you're the one lashing out for no real reason. I just said what it looked like to me. You came up with all kinds of implications of my observation. Yes, I am wary of cops. I live in NYC, after all, and am surrounded by SWAT teams any time I want to take a train to or from the suburbs or sometimes walk past hordes (literally more than a dozen) of cop cars parked in the middle of Lincoln Center. Beats me what they're up to, but I sure don't want to be caught in the crossfire of one of their overdramatic operations.
[Politech] Are cops constitutional? -- a law review article wonders.
[This is an interesting article that's worth reading. Info on the author is
here: http://www.prisoncrisis.com/founder.html --Declan]
---
http://www.constitution.org/lrev/roots/cops.htm
Seton Hall Constitutional L.J. 2001, 685
ARE COPS CONSTITUTIONAL?
Roger Roots*
ABSTRACT
Police work is often lionized by jurists and scholars who claim to employ
"textualist" and "originalist" methods of constitutional interpretation.
Yet professional police were unknown to the United States in 1789, and
first appeared in America almost a half-century after the Constitution's
ratification. The Framers contemplated law enforcement as the duty of
mostly private citizens, along with a few constables and sheriffs who could
be called upon when necessary. This article marshals extensive historical
and legal evidence to show that modern policing is in many ways
inconsistent with the original intent of America's founding documents. The
author argues that the growth of modern policing has substantially
empowered the state in a way the Framers would regard as abhorrent to their
foremost principles.
---
Date: Wed, 3 Dec 2003 12:02:28 -0500
Subject: Are Cops Constitutional?
From: Bruce Chesley <excalibur25@juno.com>
FYI.
Bruce Chesley
Truth is a terrible cross to bear.
Tyranny, like hell, is not easily conquered.". Thomas Paine
Treason for $$$: ALL "pro 2A" orgs.
--------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Tue, 02 Dec 2003 15:38:55 -0600
From: Jon Roland <jon.roland@constitution.org>
We have uploaded a law review article, Are Cops Constitutional ?,
Roger Roots, Seton Hall Constitutional L.J. 2001, 685. It is at
http://www.constitution.org/lrev/roots/cops.htm , and it's a pearl. It
covers a wide range of constitutional issues involving professional
law enforcement, and cites a number of sources that are worth some
further research. I plan to also put up other articles by Roots, who,
besides being a lawyer, is also a former federal prisoner.
-- Jon
----------------------------------------------------------------
Our efforts depend on donations from people like you. Directions
for donors are at http://www.constitution.org/whatucando.htm
Constitution Society 7793 Burnet Road #37, Austin, TX 78757
512/374-9585 www.constitution.org jon.roland@constitution.org
_______________________________________________
Politech mailing list
Archived at http://www.politechbot.com/
Moderated by Declan McCullagh (http://www.mccullagh.org/)
[This is an interesting article that's worth reading. Info on the author is
here: http://www.prisoncrisis.com/founder.html --Declan]
---
http://www.constitution.org/lrev/roots/cops.htm
Seton Hall Constitutional L.J. 2001, 685
ARE COPS CONSTITUTIONAL?
Roger Roots*
ABSTRACT
Police work is often lionized by jurists and scholars who claim to employ
"textualist" and "originalist" methods of constitutional interpretation.
Yet professional police were unknown to the United States in 1789, and
first appeared in America almost a half-century after the Constitution's
ratification. The Framers contemplated law enforcement as the duty of
mostly private citizens, along with a few constables and sheriffs who could
be called upon when necessary. This article marshals extensive historical
and legal evidence to show that modern policing is in many ways
inconsistent with the original intent of America's founding documents. The
author argues that the growth of modern policing has substantially
empowered the state in a way the Framers would regard as abhorrent to their
foremost principles.
---
Date: Wed, 3 Dec 2003 12:02:28 -0500
Subject: Are Cops Constitutional?
From: Bruce Chesley <excalibur25@juno.com>
FYI.
Bruce Chesley
Truth is a terrible cross to bear.
Tyranny, like hell, is not easily conquered.". Thomas Paine
Treason for $$$: ALL "pro 2A" orgs.
--------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Tue, 02 Dec 2003 15:38:55 -0600
From: Jon Roland <jon.roland@constitution.org>
We have uploaded a law review article, Are Cops Constitutional ?,
Roger Roots, Seton Hall Constitutional L.J. 2001, 685. It is at
http://www.constitution.org/lrev/roots/cops.htm , and it's a pearl. It
covers a wide range of constitutional issues involving professional
law enforcement, and cites a number of sources that are worth some
further research. I plan to also put up other articles by Roots, who,
besides being a lawyer, is also a former federal prisoner.
-- Jon
----------------------------------------------------------------
Our efforts depend on donations from people like you. Directions
for donors are at http://www.constitution.org/whatucando.htm
Constitution Society 7793 Burnet Road #37, Austin, TX 78757
512/374-9585 www.constitution.org jon.roland@constitution.org
_______________________________________________
Politech mailing list
Archived at http://www.politechbot.com/
Moderated by Declan McCullagh (http://www.mccullagh.org/)
This isn't a rural country with a very low population density anymore. Are you seriously suggesting that the concept of police is unconstitutional?
TRENDING THREADS
-
Discussion Zen 5 Speculation (EPYC Turin and Strix Point/Granite Ridge - Ryzen 9000)- Started by DisEnchantment
- Replies: 25K
-
Discussion Intel Meteor, Arrow, Lunar & Panther Lakes + WCL Discussion Threads
- Started by Tigerick
- Replies: 22K
-
News NVIDIA and Intel to Develop AI Infrastructure and Personal Computing Products- Started by poke01
- Replies: 386
-
Discussion Intel current and future Lakes & Rapids thread- Started by TheF34RChannel
- Replies: 23K
Facebook
Twitter