How Germany keeps manufacturing at home and small/medium businesses well-funded

[drebo]

So you're comparing Germany to a country 30 times its size with four times the population and the only conclusion you can come up with is one that does not fit the data?

Seriously, you will never get an answer other than "corporatism sucks" out of a real conservative.

But, hey, I don't mean to deflate your socialist balloon here. Oh, wait...I do. This "study" is bullshit.

The only valid observation to come out of this "study" is that the US is bigger than Germany.

No one is denying that there is a problem. But to inscinuate that the US has had anything remotely resembling a "free market" at any time in the last 70 years is ignorance at best and an outright lie at worst. The problem certainly isn't that the market is too free.

Hell, the latest economic problems were caused by a lack of accountability. Policy makers and the people who are supposed to enforce those policies didn't do their jobs. Were they fired? Were they jailed? Were they held accountable in any way? No. Were the people who exploited the breakdown in policy enforcement held accountable in any way? No. They were fucking rewarded for fucking over the public.

And guess what...nothing changed. We have no more real regulation than we had before. We have no more punishments. We have no more accountability than we had before.

And before you "bu..bu...bu...buuuuuush" and "bu.bu.but...GOP" me, I didn't vote for Bush or McCain. I don't vote party lines. I'm not a single-issue voter. And I sure as shit don't condone corruption from whichever party it comes from.

Our problems run far deeper than just conservative vs. liberal or dem vs. repub. Our problems mostly stem from the fact that we don't have any real choice. The crony capitalism of the last 60 years has completely fucked our government up, and there really isn't anyway out from it. Hell, Obama was supposed to be a crazy, business-hating socialist. Yet the revolving door to Washington continues, lobbying is more potent than ever, and he's giving massive, MASSIVE fucking pork to businesses at every fucking turn.

Oh, by the way, if you want to spur investment and savings, you need to make it more expensive for banks to "borrow" money from the government. If banks can borrow money to invest from the government for free, they sure as shit aren't going to pay regular customers to invest their money. Seriously, at the 0.05% APY that savings accounts are giving now, it's almost better to just keep it in a mattress.

The head of our government needs to come off before our problems can be fixed. It doesn't matter what's mandate or who makes what claims...as long as the same corruption exists and is not punished, nothing will ever change.

You want to string up Bush for selling out main street, you better take a good long fucking look at Obama, because he's done as much if not more.

 

[freegeeks]

So you're comparing Germany to a country 30 times its size with four times the population and the only conclusion you can come up with is one that does not fit the data?

Seriously, you will never get an answer other than "corporatism sucks" out of a real conservative.

But, hey, I don't mean to deflate your socialist balloon here. Oh, wait...I do. This "study" is bullshit.

The only valid observation to come out of this "study" is that the US is bigger than Germany.

No one is denying that there is a problem. But to inscinuate that the US has had anything remotely resembling a "free market" at any time in the last 70 years is ignorance at best and an outright lie at worst. The problem certainly isn't that the market is too free.

Hell, the latest economic problems were caused by a lack of accountability. Policy makers and the people who are supposed to enforce those policies didn't do their jobs. Were they fired? Were they jailed? Were they held accountable in any way? No. Were the people who exploited the breakdown in policy enforcement held accountable in any way? No. They were fucking rewarded for fucking over the public.

And guess what...nothing changed. We have no more real regulation than we had before. We have no more punishments. We have no more accountability than we had before.

And before you "bu..bu...bu...buuuuuush" and "bu.bu.but...GOP" me, I didn't vote for Bush or McCain. I don't vote party lines. I'm not a single-issue voter. And I sure as shit don't condone corruption from whichever party it comes from.

Our problems run far deeper than just conservative vs. liberal or dem vs. repub. Our problems mostly stem from the fact that we don't have any real choice. The crony capitalism of the last 60 years has completely fucked our government up, and there really isn't anyway out from it. Hell, Obama was supposed to be a crazy, business-hating socialist. Yet the revolving door to Washington continues, lobbying is more potent than ever, and he's giving massive, MASSIVE fucking pork to businesses at every fucking turn.

Oh, by the way, if you want to spur investment and savings, you need to make it more expensive for banks to "borrow" money from the government. If banks can borrow money to invest from the government for free, they sure as shit aren't going to pay regular customers to invest their money. Seriously, at the 0.05% APY that savings accounts are giving now, it's almost better to just keep it in a mattress.

The head of our government needs to come off before our problems can be fixed. It doesn't matter what's mandate or who makes what claims...as long as the same corruption exists and is not punished, nothing will ever change.

You want to string up Bush for selling out main street, you better take a good long fucking look at Obama, because he's done as much if not more.

I guess that you missed the point of this article so I will help you out

- Germany still has a very big industrial base despite high salaries and a high cost
- Germany is the top exporter in the world (2 in the world after China, by far the biggest in the world per capita)
- much of these exports are industrial products
- the article points out that unions and workers participation are beneficial in making these companies so strong, they add a positive to this success story, not a negative

 

[dmcowen674]

Trade imbalance isn't necessarily a bad thing.

To get higher wages you need to increase productivity and for that you need investment. Germany has a much higher savings rate (like twice the rate of ours).

We used to be the greatest exporter in the world, we had higher savings and were more productive. We were also the highest paid.

Our economy has severe structural problems. We need to get back to that.
We should start with cutting out the huge budget deficits and lower government spending and taxes.

Getting rid of the budget deficit or spending will not bring jobs here.

 

[Jaskalas]

- More employee representation on executive committees

That makes so much sense it hurts.

Employees aren't going to vote their own jobs off shore.

 

[Siddhartha]

Screwing over labor is so ingrained in the US's collective psyche that even talking about something like what is discussed in the OP would solicit a reaction that would make the Tea Party's reaction to Obama's Healthcare plan look like a birthday party at a nursing home.

 

[Gonad the Barbarian]

It doesn't matter how other countries do it, this is America, we will do it our way, and will be successful at it, because we are number one! USA! USA!

 

[matt0611]

Getting rid of the budget deficit or spending will not bring jobs here.

We spend 25% of GDP each year in government spending. Thats way too much.
Lower that down to 20% of GDP and that 5% get put back in the private sector.
The private sector is always more productive than the public.

The budget deficit causes a lot of capital to flow into the government, that capital could be better used somewhere in the private sector.
It also allows for lowering taxes which increases growth of the private sector.

Example, cutting military budget by 5% and using that to give tax breaks to all people gives them more money. That money used to buy inefficient/overpriced tanks but is now used in the more efficient private sector by the people to create jobs.

 

[soccerballtux]

- Use of locally-owned banks that are restricted to local lending, thus incentivizing growth of small/medium businesses

Wow this is a really good idea, I'm conservative but I recognize the GOP would never let it fly.

 

[soccerballtux]

Step #6 in the decline of every empire is to rely on the slave labor or conquered and other lands for goods and services.

correlation is not causation.

 

[Narmer]

At this point I have no issue with the US stealing economic ideas from other countries. Something has to change.

Nothing's going to change. We're experiencing the slow decline of this great nation. Our politics has been hijacked by extremists who, come election time, sidestep the real issues for abortion, gays, and guns.

 

[piasabird]

Germany does some other things that make sense also. It was Germany that originally came up with the 10 year old car buy back program. Except they purchased all 10 year old cars instead of just the gas guzzlers. Germany less socialist, USA More socialist.

In Germany they also came up with a plan to encourage Solar power use. The government guaranteed a set rate for electricit power purchases from solar energy. This enables people to prepare a business plan of guaranteed payback of their solar power. So Germany produces more power from solar energy than the USA as a percentage of their total power.
Germany wins solar power race.
USA Loses Solar Power race.

There are some advantages to using programs that make sense that may be considered socialism. The trick is not to apply Class Warfare and a Fake concern for a Green initiative in ways that do not discriminate and help cooperation for the common good.

Where is our common sense?

 

[Schadenfroh]

I guess this is a bad time to mention that the ruling party of Germany is the Christian Democratic Union (CDU), which is basically their equivalent of America's Republican Party (even belongs to the same international group as The Republican Party) and that their Socialist party is in decline?

 

[amyklai]

While the CDU is a centre/right party (and the FDP too), all German parties would be considered leftist in America. Heck, the democrats are probably much further to the right than the CDU as far as economic and social politics are concerned.

Also, while the social democrats have lost a lot of voters, that has more to do with the fact that the political left used to equal SPD 30 years ago. Now, the left is split into three parties (SPD, Greens and Linke) and while the SPD never got close to 50 percent in a federal election and always needed the (center-right) FDP as a coalition partner in those good old days, those 3 leftist parties have been close to or above 50% a lot of the times in the past 15 years or so, so you could make the case that Germany has become more left leaning.

 

[BigDH01]

I guess this is a bad time to mention that the ruling party of Germany is the Christian Democratic Union (CDU), which is basically their equivalent of America's Republican Party (even belongs to the same international group as The Republican Party) and that their Socialist party is in decline?

It would be a huge stretch to call the CDU analogous to the US Republican Party. CDU would probably be called liberal here.

Also,

http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/02/20/us-germany-hamburg-idUSTRE71I3WE20110220

 

[amyklai]

Btw, the current German government (and even the one before) haven't done any major reforms / decisions /changes lately that are responsible for the current state of affairs. The last important reform was Schröder's "Agenda 2010" reforms from 2003-2005.

One of the main reasons why Germany is doing well right now is that German companies are producing lots of products that are needed in booming asian / southern american companies. Partly, it's just a matter of luck.

10 years ago, Germany was considered the "sick old man of Europe" and all the super smart economists said look at the US, Spain, Ireland, they're growing much faster, Germany is stagnating. The message was that manufacturing was a thing of the past and services are the future.
Now, the same super smart economists say the exact opposite.

So, while America certainly doesn't look too good right now (and the state of political culture looks even worse than the state of the economy), it's probably wise to take all the hype with a huge grain of salt.

Also, I think it's important to understand that there are fundamental differences between the countries. Recipies that work here don't neccessarily work there and vice versa.

 

[amyklai]

Just saw that in the Hamburg election, the leftist parties gathered around 68% of votes, CDU / FDP are taking the beating of their lifetime right now.

 

[CycloWizard]

Btw, the current German government (and even the one before) haven't done any major reforms / decisions /changes lately that are responsible for the current state of affairs. The last important reform was Schröder's "Agenda 2010" reforms from 2003-2005.

One of the main reasons why Germany is doing well right now is that German companies are producing lots of products that are needed in booming asian / southern american companies. Partly, it's just a matter of luck.

10 years ago, Germany was considered the "sick old man of Europe" and all the super smart economists said look at the US, Spain, Ireland, they're growing much faster, Germany is stagnating. The message was that manufacturing was a thing of the past and services are the future.
Now, the same super smart economists say the exact opposite.

So, while America certainly doesn't look too good right now (and the state of political culture looks even worse than the state of the economy), it's probably wise to take all the hype with a huge grain of salt.

Also, I think it's important to understand that there are fundamental differences between the countries. Recipies that work here don't neccessarily work there and vice versa.

The fundamental difference (or one of the big ones, at least) is that those other economies were booming because of government deficit spending. Germany avoided this temptation and instead built a sustainable foundation.

 

[bfdd]

You know what's funny? The reason why the American government is so god awful is because it's a circular death spiral: We're a right of center country that believes government doesn't work, elect politicians who confirm our suspicions, and we get the shit government we deserve. And that cynism spawns more shithead libertarians, tea baggers, republicans, and democrats who might as well be republicans.

If you go demonstrate against corporations or government in the street, you're viewed as a unwashed jobless hippy in this country. In Europe? It's in their blood to demonstrate and governments and corporations work for the people as a result, not the other way around. Again, we get the government we deserve. I think the only conclusion is that it's not about big government not working, it's that the character of your average American is absolute shit and that causes government not to work.

uh... we have regulations, maybe not good regulations, but the government has a hand in everything. stop acting like they don't, in fact they have done more harm in certain things than good because of poor planning, poorly written regulations and then they go on to poorly enforce them. The problem isn't lack of regulation, it's lack of politicians who aren't out to line their pockets and lie to their constituents.

All of you morons picking sides and attacking the other are part of the problem. Shut the fuck up and stay the fuck out of things if all you want to do is fight with the imaginary "other side".

 

[Phokus]

We spend 25% of GDP each year in government spending. Thats way too much.
Lower that down to 20% of GDP and that 5% get put back in the private sector.
The private sector is always more productive than the public.

The budget deficit causes a lot of capital to flow into the government, that capital could be better used somewhere in the private sector.
It also allows for lowering taxes which increases growth of the private sector.

Example, cutting military budget by 5% and using that to give tax breaks to all people gives them more money. That money used to buy inefficient/overpriced tanks but is now used in the more efficient private sector by the people to create jobs.

Yeah, it'll be used to create jobs OUTSIDE the US. You got rid of 5% of the military, which just got rid of a lot of domestic military jobs. While i agree with gutting the military, unless you have government regulations in place, that additional capital will flee the country.

 

[Phokus]

uh... we have regulations, maybe not good regulations, but the government has a hand in everything. stop acting like they don't, in fact they have done more harm in certain things than good because of poor planning, poorly written regulations and then they go on to poorly enforce them. The problem isn't lack of regulation, it's lack of politicians who aren't out to line their pockets and lie to their constituents.

All of you morons picking sides and attacking the other are part of the problem. Shut the fuck up and stay the fuck out of things if all you want to do is fight with the imaginary "other side".

We've deregulated, cut taxes, and instituted lots of free trade agreements, that's the heart of the problem (especially the free trade thing) and has accomplished what libertarians and conservatives wanted: The destruction of the middle class.

 

[Steeplerot]

All of you morons picking sides and attacking the other are part of the problem. Shut the fuck up and stay the fuck out of things if all you want to do is fight with the imaginary "other side".

Some people have brains they can use instead of curling into a ball and crying about both sides do it in some pathetic false equivilency when confronted with idealogical contradictions in their belief system in real life. It's called being an adult.

 

[BoberFett]

God damned socialists, why can't germany learn to have a net import trade imbalance and pay their workers peanuts? - What every conservative/libertarian is thinking.

You claim to have been a libertarian at one point and had some grand revelation, but if this is what you believe about libertarian ideas, you're just another idiot Democrat.

 

[matt0611]

Yeah, it'll be used to create jobs OUTSIDE the US. You got rid of 5% of the military, which just got rid of a lot of domestic military jobs. While i agree with gutting the military, unless you have government regulations in place, that additional capital will flee the country.

The capital is already flowing into the US.
Dollars are already flowing in to finance the government spending.
If the government is not using those dollars to finance deficit spending those dollars will need to be spent on other things in the US.

As long as we have a trade deficit we will have a capital inflow into the country. Problem is we are squandering that capital on less productive government spending.

 

[Engineer]

The capital is already flowing into the US.
Dollars are already flowing in to finance the government spending.
If the government is not using those dollars to finance deficit spending those dollars will need to be spent on other things in the US.

As long as we have a trade deficit we will have a capital inflow into the country. Problem is we are squandering that capital on less productive government spending.

You really think that the Chinese and other would continue to pour money into the US if they were not buying US treasuries?

If you spend more than you make, you eventually go broke.

It will be interesting when the government does cut spending to watch the effect on the economy as the spending, government or not, is going into the private economy. There is not some magical government company making tanks and other stuff for the US. Of course, you could offshore that stuff and save money, right? I mean, we don't need those kinds of jobs here anyway.

Keep dreaming folks...

 

[Phokus]

You claim to have been a libertarian at one point and had some grand revelation, but if this is what you believe about libertarian ideas, you're just another idiot Democrat.

It's the consequence of their stupid beliefs. Also, you still draining unemployment benefits while raging against the government?