How Germany keeps manufacturing at home and small/medium businesses well-funded

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RbSX

Diamond Member
Jan 18, 2002
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The unions in Europe are the same mentality but the government and people in general seem to put major effort into making companies stay on an even playing field. For example, Intel was fined big time because they were doing things like giving discounts to stores that only sell Intel processors. In Europe, that's considered bad. You can't give deals that put a competitor at such a major disadvantage. In America, that kind of thing is perfectly legal. If Intel gives huge discounts as well as better purchasing selection to stores/companies that only sell Intel products, that's considered the free market doing what it does. If it naturally forms monopolies and price gouging, that's also the free market doing what it does.

So how does that work in a practical sense? Let's say I work for a car company and I want $20/h plus benefits and pension to build cars. Let's say I form a union. Now that my company has a worker's union, we can make some solid negotiations on what we want.
American mentality:
The company with the union should fail because their operating costs are higher and they price themselves out of the market. Unions are bad. This is how the free market works.
European mentality:
The company without a union should have a union so its workers are fairly compensated as well. Support the underdog to ensure there is always some form of competition in the market.

The difference between European and American mentality is seen in a lot of different things. For example, many Americans believe that the government should have absolutely no control over private property. If AT&T owns the entire US phone network, it's their god given right to control the entire US phone network and charge whatever outrageous rates they want. If you don't like it, you can feel free to build your own telephone network to compete against it.
In Europe and many other parts of the developed world, public good is more important than private property. As an example of this type of mentality, wireless phone companies in Canada are required to sell capacity to rival companies. The entire country's phone and cable networks are owned by maybe 3 companies, but there are dozens if not hundreds of companies using the same grid. As a result, the market has real competition. Instead of an area having only 1 cellular phone service provider, an area might have 5 providers all using the same towers. One of them offers wider coverage, one offers better billing but is restricted to urban areas, one is better for text and data plans, etc. Government forced competition.

Please don't speak about how the system in Canada works. I'm Canadian, and your explanation, while KIND OF right, is also VERY VERY VERY wrong in many ways.

What I mean though, is that the hostile environment creates a toxic business relationship between unions and management in the States.
 

ShawnD1

Lifer
May 24, 2003
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Please don't speak about how the system in Canada works. I'm Canadian, and your explanation, while KIND OF right, is also VERY VERY VERY wrong in many ways.
Can you pinpoint which part is wrong?

A couple decades ago, Alberta's entire phone network was owned by AGT (Alberta Government Telephones) which was later privatized and sold off as Telus. So literally 100% of the entire phone network in Alberta is owned by Telus, but several companies use the network because it's illegal to stonewall them. Much of Canada's network is owned by Bell, and they too are required to sell tower/grid space. I live in Alberta, using network space owned by Telus, my cell phone provider is Bell, and my internet is through TekSavvy.

Here is the actual law about sharing cell phone towers:
http://www.ictregulationtoolkit.org/en/PracticeNote.aspx?id=3236
Box 1 sets out the licence conditions that have been imposed on radiocommunication carrier licensees by Industry Canada. These licence conditions pertain to mandatory antenna tower and site sharing.

1. The Licensee must facilitate sharing of antenna towers and sites, including rooftops, supporting structures and access to ancillary equipment and services (“Sites”) and not cause or contribute to the exclusion of other radiocommunication carriers from gaining access to Sites. Without limiting the generality of the foregoing,
....
yes it's an actual law that you must sell tower space. It's to prevent the situation where there is a cell phone tower every single block and phone reception is still shit because your particular provider doesn't own any towers in that area.

Here is a discussion on DSL Reports specifically about the topic of broadband network sharing
http://www.dslreports.com/shownews/92431
Slashdot notes that Canadian regulators are "preserving the broadband status quo" by ensuring that wholesale cooperation will continue. In other words, incumbent Canadian providers will continue to be required to provide wholesale bandwidth to competitors at discounted rates to foster competition, something that we're phasing out here in the States


Here's a more recent 2010 article from Ars Technica
http://arstechnica.com/telecom/news...adband-duopolies-keeps-line-sharing-alive.ars
Canada is staying with the community of nations that require their big Internet service providers to share their networks with competitive broadband companies. The country's Radio-television and Telecommunications Commission has ruled that the nation's big telcos must do so "at speeds that match those offered to their own retail customers."

"Requiring these companies to provide access to their networks will lead to more opportunities for competition in retail Internet services and better serve consumers," declared the CRTC's Chair Konrad von Finckenstein.


Forced network sharing is actually the standard in most places. The US is very unique in that government policies are very pro-monopoly and the citizens don't seem to care.
 

GTaudiophile

Lifer
Oct 24, 2000
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I would be interested in hearing how average German people see those who are unemployed or are single parents. Do Germans see them as people who should be lifted up and put to work, people who should be given handouts, or people who should be left to die?
I'm not German but I would guess the first one - lifted up and put to work. In the US it's more of a split between the other two - democrats want to give them free money and republicans are waiting for them to die off and go away.

Germans can split on this just like anyone else. I could ask this of some of my friends and they would mention something like the so-called "Generationenvertrag" or generational treaty to explain that it is the job of the employed to take care of the unemployed; the healthy to take care of the sick; the rich, the poor; the young, the old and so forth. These same people would refer to Article 1 of the Grundgesetz or Basic Law, citing the government's role to maintain such societal balances:

Human dignity shall be inviolable. To respect and protect it shall be the duty of all state authority.
The German people therefore acknowledge inviolable and inalienable human rights as the basis of every community, of peace and of justice in the world.
The following basic rights shall bind the legislature, the executive, and the judiciary as directly applicable law.

I could then go ask a different group of Germans and they would argue that the state does too much and offers too many disincentives to seek real employment. I am aware of at least one friend, who faced with the option of being relocated with her job at a lesser pay or going onto unemployment, chose the latter due to better pay. One in five people living in Berlin lives off of state assistance in some manner.

I am just saying that you cannot draw blanket statements about any people or culture. Germans would debate the issue as much as anyone, but I am pretty sure most would argue for the "maintaining of human dignity" as their Constitution suggests.
 
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Phokus

Lifer
Nov 20, 1999
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Time Magazine has a feature article called How Germany Became the China of Europe that goes deeper into this topic - mostly just confirms what's been mentioned here, but still a good read.

But in recent years, German firms, aided by farsighted government reforms, have turned that into an art form, forging the most competitive industrial sector of any advanced economy. The proof is a boom in exports, which jumped 18.5% in 2010, that is the envy of the developed world.

Read more: http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,2053595,00.html#ixzz1EzQZq5OP[/quote

German exports to China surged 45% in the first 10 months of 2010. In fact, Germany is the only major industrialized country other than Japan in which exports are playing a significantly larger role in the economy — 41% of GDP in 2009, from 33% in 2000.

Read more: http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,2053595,00.html#ixzz1EzROyph5

That's fucking insane.
 
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GTaudiophile

Lifer
Oct 24, 2000
29,767
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Well, at least people have the option of learning Mandarin or German if they want to be part of a successful economy.

I chose German...nearly 20 years ago.
 

ShawnD1

Lifer
May 24, 2003
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wait a second, i thought socialism was bad?

Socialism and high import tax is bad! The only way to have a sustainable economy is to open completely free trade with countries where the daily wage is 3 pennies. That way prices stay low and unemployed people can afford food o_O
 

CanOWorms

Lifer
Jul 3, 2001
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Germany doesn't seem like a good model to follow. They have serious demographics issues with their declining population and they treat their minority groups horribly. With the spread of unrest in that part of the world, it won't be surprising if people can't take the humiliation anymore. It happened next door in France.
 

Steeplerot

Lifer
Mar 29, 2004
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Germany doesn't seem like a good model to follow. They have serious demographics issues with their declining population and they treat their minority groups horribly. With the spread of unrest in that part of the world, it won't be surprising if people can't take the humiliation anymore. It happened next door in France.

This reminds me of skinheads and their endless cries of a race war upcoming. Wishful thinking for knuckleheads. I remember hearing this shit in 1993. And yet Europe keeps getting stronger lol
 

ShawnD1

Lifer
May 24, 2003
15,987
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Germany doesn't seem like a good model to follow. They have serious demographics issues with their declining population and they treat their minority groups horribly. With the spread of unrest in that part of the world, it won't be surprising if people can't take the humiliation anymore. It happened next door in France.

Indeed! America would never have problems with demographics!


Whoops! Johnny's totally stumped!

notfunny.jpg
 

CanOWorms

Lifer
Jul 3, 2001
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This reminds me of skinheads and their endless cries of a race war upcoming. Wishful thinking for knuckleheads. I remember hearing this shit in 1993. And yet Europe keeps getting stronger lol

This reminds me of Europeanized liberals and their affinity for all things Europe. Wishful thinking for bigots. I remember hearing this shit in 1983. And yet Europe keeps getting weaker and their former slaves are becoming their masters.

When will the concept of white supremacy finally die? How many more billions will need to die for that ideology?
 
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CanOWorms

Lifer
Jul 3, 2001
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Indeed! America would never have problems with demographics!

It's not solely demographics. The problem is that Europe repeatedly has the same demographics issues that end in genocide due to their psychological issues regarding racial supremacy.
 

Steeplerot

Lifer
Mar 29, 2004
13,051
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I remember hearing this shit in 1983. And yet Europe keeps getting weaker

Yes, Europe is so weak now compared to 1983. (when there wasn't even a united Germany as a new economic superpower!) :D

Let me guess, UN representatives are lizard people under their masks really also?

Damn you meddling euroracist kids! You ruined the plan.

There are some real nutters in this forum!
 

CanOWorms

Lifer
Jul 3, 2001
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Yes, Europe is so weak now compared to 1983. (when there wasn't even a united Germany as a new economic superpower!) :D

Yes, of course they're weaker. What has happened since then? The US continues on and the former enslaved are overtaking European nations. Several European nations are losing their sovereignty to the EU, an institution that receives no respect from the international community.

Let me guess, UN representatives are lizard people under their masks really also?

Damn you meddling euroracist kids! You ruined the plan.

There are some real nutters in this forum!

There are some real far-right crazies in this forum! What's next? Hitler shall rise from the dead and lead the Eurobrethren to conquer the world?
 

Infohawk

Lifer
Jan 12, 2002
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Let me guess, UN representatives are lizard people under their masks really also?

Yep that pretty much sums up how far COW is out there. (What's really sad is that he's like a reverse neo-nazi. Instead of Jews his boogeyman is white people. He hates whites in Europe and in America and blames them for all of the world's ills. He fantasizes about Obama bombing London. Poor guy. Thankfully he's very rare for an Indian person. Most Indian immigrants I know are tolerant and good people. He must have bumped his head when he was a kid.)
 
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CanOWorms

Lifer
Jul 3, 2001
12,404
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Yep that pretty much sums up how far COW is out there. (What's really sad is that he's like a reverse neo-nazi. Instead of Jews his boogeyman is white people. He hates whites in Europe and in America and blames them for all of the world's ills. He fantasizes about Obama bombing London. Poor guy. Thankfully he's very rare for an Indian person. Most Indian immigrants I know are tolerant and good people. He must have bumped his head when he was a kid.)

You're showing your own bigotry in this post. First of all, you need to admit that you have a very narrow definition of white people. For example, you exclude Eastern Europeans, non-Christian groups, etc. Basically you only consider Christian Western Europeans to be white. I have no problem with white people. I have problems with European governments, but you don't seem capable of understanding the difference - likely because you believe Europe is the homeland for the white race and should be purged of all those who defile it. I question where you get the American stuff from, too.

Also, I'm not an immigrant. But that probably blows your mind. You're the stereotype that so many 2nd-generation Americans have to face. I wonder how much you weigh.
 
Aug 14, 2001
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Yes, Europe is so weak now compared to 1983. (when there wasn't even a united Germany as a new economic superpower!) :D

Let me guess, UN representatives are lizard people under their masks really also?

Damn you meddling euroracist kids! You ruined the plan.

There are some real nutters in this forum!

Since when is Germany an economic superpower? It's doing fine, but I don't think many people outside of those Americans who are incapable of integrating into American society would consider Germany a superpower of any sort. And how does that make up for all of Europe?

Europe is in the decline. It's been that way for quite some time. It's no longer an economic superpower. Their population is rapidly decreasing and their rabid racism is going to end the viability of their countries. It's really too late now, especially since their former colonies are on the up and Europe is clearly on the down.

It's time to look to the future and it doesn't include Europe.
 
Aug 14, 2001
11,061
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You're showing your own bigotry in this post. First of all, you need to admit that you have a very narrow definition of white people. For example, you exclude Eastern Europeans, non-Christian groups, etc. Basically you only consider Christian Western Europeans to be white. I have no problem with white people. I have problems with European governments, but you don't seem capable of understanding the difference - likely because you believe Europe is the homeland for the white race and should be purged of all those who defile it. I question where you get the American stuff from, too.

Also, I'm not an immigrant. But that probably blows your mind. You're the stereotype that so many 2nd-generation Americans have to face. I wonder how much you weigh.

That about sums up InfoHawk, aka Dictionary ever since he tried to redefine the word genocide to mean that Europeans can never commit it. He's very clearly a white European supremacist, probably one of the most mentally sick people on this entire forum.

And I think that he weighs about 405 pounds and is maybe 5 feet tall.
 
Aug 14, 2001
11,061
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Oh, I forgot, a place that is rapidly aging and decreasing in population while decreasing in economic and military importance isn't on the decline.

Sometimes I forget how the Euro-supremacists think.
 

CanOWorms

Lifer
Jul 3, 2001
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Since when is Germany an economic superpower? It's doing fine, but I don't think many people outside of those Americans who are incapable of integrating into American society would consider Germany a superpower of any sort. And how does that make up for all of Europe?

Europe is in the decline. It's been that way for quite some time. It's no longer an economic superpower. Their population is rapidly decreasing and their rabid racism is going to end the viability of their countries. It's really too late now, especially since their former colonies are on the up and Europe is clearly on the down.

It's time to look to the future and it doesn't include Europe.

What's interesting is that one of the few European countries on the rise, Turkey, is routinely criticized as not European and Eurosupremacists actively try to thwart its attempts into the EU even though it's the potential savior of the entire corrupt organization!