How Germany keeps manufacturing at home and small/medium businesses well-funded

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charrison

Lifer
Oct 13, 1999
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I would like to see the median income of service jobs vs manufacturing jobs.

I'd bet manufacturing is higher.

You are wrong. Service jobs pay more. I will dig up the link, but I have posted it before.

http://mjperry.blogspot.com/2007/11/higher-paying-jobs-outnumber-lower.html
And what about the hamburger-flipping story? It's a myth. The 3.3 million manufacturing jobs that were lost paid an average of $17.12 per hour, but more than 11 million jobs were added to the U.S. economy in sectors that paid an average of $20.79 per hour, or 21.4% MORE than manufacturing.
 
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Engineer

Elite Member
Oct 9, 1999
39,230
701
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Name one product that is made without any help from imports? Just one.

That doesn't answer the question. The question is..."How can a company be considered a US manufacturing company if they make nothing here" (only sell it)?

By the way, the data and charts the guy uses so conveniently cuts off at 2007....during the top of a bubble. Wonder what those numbers look like today? If we are replacing all of the jobs with better paying jobs, I would assume that the decade of the 2000's was a decade of "real" wage growth on average for everyone, no?

I'm also sure that those 3+ million people that lost their jobs in manufacturing are now making MORE than they were before....I'm sure that they found (each of them) one of those higher paying jobs.
 
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charrison

Lifer
Oct 13, 1999
17,033
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That doesn't answer the question. The question is..."How can a company be considered a US manufacturing company if they make nothing here" (only sell it)?

Define make? Is there money to made it making things, or selling things? Those lowly service jobs such as engineering, sales, finance and marketing dont pay anything. We should keep our workers in this country adding as little as possible to value of a product.

6 dollars of an iphone sale goes back to china. Is that what you want for this country, to forgo the high paying jobs so we keep the low pay ones?

http://mjperry.blogspot.com/2010/12/iphone-added-2billion-to-trade-deficit.html
 

charrison

Lifer
Oct 13, 1999
17,033
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That doesn't answer the question. The question is..."How can a company be considered a US manufacturing company if they make nothing here" (only sell it)?

By the way, the data and charts the guy uses so conveniently cuts off at 2007....during the top of a bubble. Wonder what those numbers look like today? If we are replacing all of the jobs with better paying jobs, I would assume that the decade of the 2000's was a decade of "real" wage growth on average for everyone, no?

I'm also sure that those 3+ million people that lost their jobs in manufacturing are now making MORE than they were before....I'm sure that they found (each of them) one of those higher paying jobs.


Actually if you dig though his site he has more current data, it is just not always easy to find.

I will agree that wages have been depressed during the recession, but it is nothing permanent and there are already signs of wage growth.
 

Engineer

Elite Member
Oct 9, 1999
39,230
701
126
Define make? Is there money to made it making things, or selling things? Those lowly service jobs such as engineering, sales, finance and marketing dont pay anything. We should keep our workers in this country adding as little as possible to value of a product.

6 dollars of an iphone sale goes back to china. Is that what you want for this country, to forgo the high paying jobs so we keep the low pay ones?

http://mjperry.blogspot.com/2010/12/iphone-added-2billion-to-trade-deficit.html

They are "low pay" because they are going to China. I guess you are willing to pony up more tax money to send more people to college so that the displaced workers in the US can all be engineers of iPhones and the likes. Like I said, there is a reason that 50% of the working people in this country no longer pay federal taxes (besides the point that taxes are being lowered more and more each year despite what people think).

Here's your high paying jobs since 2006...

While a lack of jobs is arguably the biggest problem facing the labor market, another major concern is the quality of the jobs that are being created. The Figure presents the five fastest growing occupations between 2006 and 2009 and shows that all but one of them pays below the median wage in May 2009 of $15.95 an hour. The two fastest-growing occupations, home health care and food preparation and serving, pay closer to the federal minimum wage of $7.25 per hour than the median wage. A food preparation worker’s typical wage of $8.28 an hour would earn an annual salary of $16,560, based on a typical 2,000-hour work year: That salary is just below the 2009 poverty threshold for a family of three. Warehouse stock clerks, another fast-growing occupation, would earn slightly more than $20,000 per year.

082610-snapshot.jpg
 
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Engineer

Elite Member
Oct 9, 1999
39,230
701
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Actually if you dig though his site he has more current data, it is just not always easy to find.

I will agree that wages have been depressed during the recession, but it is nothing permanent and there are already signs of wage growth.


Wages were stagnant during the entire decade, not just the recession. I'll dig up the link and post it. And if it weren't for the housing bubble, those "construction" jobs listed on the site that you keep posting would have never been there nor would they have paid well. It takes bubbles to keep us going now.

Click me (found one of them)

For college graduates, weekly wages were $1,025 in 2009, compared with $1,030 in 2000, according to the study. Over the course of a year, that's $53,300 in 2009, down from $53,560 in 2000.

The long period of wage stagnation predated the recession.



"Between 2002 and December of 2007, the country was in a period of economic expansion and for most of that time, from 2003 through 2007, wages fell," the EPI study said. "Wages had improved in the early part of the decade on the momentum of the rapid wage growth of the 1990s, but that progress was halted by the spike in unemployment during the 2001 recession, and never reestablished itself."
 
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charrison

Lifer
Oct 13, 1999
17,033
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They are "low pay" because they are going to China. I guess you are willing to pony up more tax money to send more people to college so that the displaced workers in the US can all be engineers of iPhones and the likes. Like I said, there is a reason that 50% of the working people in this country no longer pay federal taxes (besides the point that taxes are being lowered more and more each year despite what people think).

You are right, we should give up everything we hard worked hard to make. We should destroy the automation that builds products. WE should replace backhoes with shovels, all in the names of jobs. This is what you keep asking. The world is changing and the skills the workforce requires is changing with it.


082610-snapshot.jpg
[/QUOTE]


So they listed 5 jobs, but is does appear on the aggregate, service jobs have more than replaced manufacturing jobs with better wages. And I doubt any jobs data on any sector is going to look very good over the last several years.
 

Engineer

Elite Member
Oct 9, 1999
39,230
701
126
So they listed 5 jobs, but is does appear on the aggregate, service jobs have more than replaced manufacturing jobs with better wages. And I doubt any jobs data on any sector is going to look very good over the last several years.

So those jobs have better wages than manufacturing? How many of those people became nurses? Those are the 5 highest growing jobs in the country and it's relevant.

You can spin it how you will (and always have) but you have to have good paying jobs for ALL classes. Once you take away the good paying jobs that people can actually do with lower skills/education, you end up with a society of 50% of the people below the tax paying line because they can't do anything else. When enough people become the "have nots", you see what happens (look around the world).

Now we have a government spending bubble propping up the job market...which was propped up by the housing bubble...which was propped up by the stock market bubble. Maybe we'll get an education bubble as people keep going to college but cannot find jobs that need their educational requirements....or you simply push the lower classes down further as Walmart and McDonalds jobs are taken by college grads. My child's school is now in the process of replacing teacher's aides with fully degree teachers with LOWER pay than the aides that they are replacing because these people NEED a job.

And as for your comment on automation, I'll agree that it does destroy jobs but at the same time, it creates jobs...and good paying jobs here...as well as keeping jobs here (I'm sure that there is a net loss though - not denying that). Without it, ALL of those jobs and plants are now in China, Mexico, etc. and there is ZERO jobs for people like me, plant engineers, plant managers, remaining production workers, quality workers, plant janitors, plant fork lift drivers, technical sales to the plants, not to mention the innovations and R&D that goes on at the plant level.

And finally, I'll state my position that I think that the decline in US manufacturing employees might be in part by replacement by "temps" (classified as temporary service employees I suppose). Seems to be a big trend among manufacturers to get and keep temps (for multiple years) without hiring them on full time or giving them any benefits). Anyone know if the number of manufacturing jobs includes temps or only full time workers?
 
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charrison

Lifer
Oct 13, 1999
17,033
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So those jobs have better wages than manufacturing? How many of those people became nurses?

You can spin it how you will (and always have) but you have to have good paying jobs for ALL classes. Once you take away the good paying jobs that people can actually do with lower skills/education, you end up with a society of 50% of the people below the tax paying line because they can't do anything else. When enough people become the "have nots", you see what happens (look around the world).

So please explain to me why are manufacturing jobs so good, that the service sector on average pays better?

We had ended up with 50% of the population not paying taxes because of the progressive tax code that only taxes the wealthy that make average salary and above. Everyone should pay some tax.

fastest growing jobs 2010
http://www.cnbc.com/id/39170216/America_s_Fastest_Growing_Jobs_2010?slide=1

50 best careers with above average growth
http://money.usnews.com/money/careers/articles/2009/12/28/the-50-best-careers-of-2010
 
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charrison

Lifer
Oct 13, 1999
17,033
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I will agree on a few of your points.

There is an education bubble that is going to pop sometime in the near future. The cost of going are starting to outweigh rewards of a degree. Taxpayer money is allowing marginal students into college, only to have them wash out in a couple years and have only debt to show for it. Technology is poised to radically reduce the cost of education in general.


The recession has affected wages, including my own, but that is short term and will improve again as the economy improves. I have little doubt there is a better job in my very near future.

As far as temps go, you are probably seeing more temps right now, but that is typical of a jobs recovery. First you get more overtime hours, then you get temps, and then come the permanent jobs.
 

Engineer

Elite Member
Oct 9, 1999
39,230
701
126
As far as temps go, you are probably seeing more temps right now, but that is typical of a jobs recovery. First you get more overtime hours, then you get temps, and then come the permanent jobs.

The temps that I was referring to were from the mid 2000's up to about 2008, the only real time that I've been able to see them. I have no data on current temps other than a few of the decently paid machinists and tool makers that were let go from my closing plant (offshored to Korea) were, as of 2009-2010, working as temps for manufacturing (Toyota, MRAP vehicle building, etc). I've seen large portions of manufacturing plants as temps during the early 2000's and up.

I have seen one recent plant that had so many temps that the temporary agency had a full time representative located on the plant floor (with desk, phone, PC, printer, etc).
 

freegeeks

Diamond Member
May 7, 2001
5,460
1
81
Some people are missing the point here. Germany industrial export is not some kind of low tech stuff build by low paid drones. It's high tech machinery and other specialized stuff made by very skilled well paid workers. Unlike the USA (and also some other Western countries, mine included), blue-collar work doesn't have a negative connotation in Germany and that is one of their strenghts. Their education is also geared towards that, in my country (and also the USA I suppose) everyone needs to have a college education and a white collar job. Our own Belgian industry is screaming for specialized welders, pipe fitters, mechanics, .... My brother in law is a welder and he makes a lot money, much more then the hordes of laywers and psychologists leaving Belgian universities annually. It's also laughable comparing the CDU with the Republican party. In the USA the CDU would probably be labeled communist and much of the current success in Germany is a result of reforms started by Gerhard Schroeder, a socialist.
 

Phokus

Lifer
Nov 20, 1999
22,994
779
126
I will agree on a few of your points.

There is an education bubble that is going to pop sometime in the near future. The cost of going are starting to outweigh rewards of a degree. Taxpayer money is allowing marginal students into college, only to have them wash out in a couple years and have only debt to show for it. Technology is poised to radically reduce the cost of education in general.


The recession has affected wages, including my own, but that is short term and will improve again as the economy improves. I have little doubt there is a better job in my very near future.

As far as temps go, you are probably seeing more temps right now, but that is typical of a jobs recovery. First you get more overtime hours, then you get temps, and then come the permanent jobs.

You're the eternal optimist. Corporate profits are booming, they've proven that they don't need Americans to be profitable. Every recovery has gotten weaker and weaker. This is a very big structural problem.
 

charrison

Lifer
Oct 13, 1999
17,033
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You're the eternal optimist. Corporate profits are booming, they've proven that they don't need Americans to be profitable. Every recovery has gotten weaker and weaker. This is a very big structural problem.

It beats being an eternal pessimist and thinking the world is going to come to an end. Of course the economic data does not support this. Corporations are profitable and if you give them a reason to invest, they will. I can tell you right now, hiring is picking up. That is at least according to the number of recruiters that have been calling me over the past several weeks.

I agree there are some significant structural changes in our economy that the workforce will have to adapt to.
 
Aug 23, 2000
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God damned socialists, why can't germany learn to have a net import trade imbalance and pay their workers peanuts? - What every conservative/libertarian is thinking.

To be fair, Germany doesn't have a Democrat party working to keep the minorities and poor people poor by incentivising them to stay on government welfare.
 

ShawnD1

Lifer
May 24, 2003
15,987
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To be fair, Germany doesn't have a Democrat party working to keep the minorities and poor people poor by incentivising them to stay on government welfare.

I would be interested in hearing how average German people see those who are unemployed or are single parents. Do Germans see them as people who should be lifted up and put to work, people who should be given handouts, or people who should be left to die?
I'm not German but I would guess the first one - lifted up and put to work. In the US it's more of a split between the other two - democrats want to give them free money and republicans are waiting for them to die off and go away.
 

amyklai

Senior member
Nov 11, 2008
262
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I would be interested in hearing how average German people see those who are unemployed or are single parents. Do Germans see them as people who should be lifted up and put to work, people who should be given handouts, or people who should be left to die?
I'm not German but I would guess the first one - lifted up and put to work. In the US it's more of a split between the other two - democrats want to give them free money and republicans are waiting for them to die off and go away.
The majority here thinks that society should help the unemployed. But at the same time, it's not exactly prestigious not to have a job, so there is some social pressure to do something. Of course, I'm from the happy south where getting a nice job is easy.
East Germany might be different.
 

DucatiMonster696

Diamond Member
Aug 13, 2009
4,269
1
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To be fair, Germany doesn't have a Democrat party working to keep the minorities and poor people poor by incentivising them to stay on government welfare.

Germany also doesn't share a practically open border with Mexico either in fact their nearest neighbors aren't anywhere near being 3rd world nations who are mass directing their poor onto their borders.

The nearest they have come to having a illegal problem would be the recent uproar about poor, uneducated Middle-Eastern and African immigrant people raising crime rates and being on welfare in Germany not to long ago. Yet Germany has a better ability to enact controls on illegal and legal immigration then we do in this nation it seems.
 
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ShawnD1

Lifer
May 24, 2003
15,987
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One thing that really pops out at me here is a lack of greed.

German business men are as greedy as anyone else. The difference is that Americans are allowed to send 99% of their workforce overseas. You can't pull shit like that in much of Europe.

Basically it comes down to people having voting power. People in Europe want to build things, so they vote for people who allow and encourage that. America has 2 parties and neither of them want to do any real work, so they both offshore jobs as fast as possible then argue over what the minimum wage should be for all of the service jobs that everyone has. People in Germany want to be paid $20 per hour to build barbecue sets. People in America want $20 per hour to sell German barbecue sets.
 

JS80

Lifer
Oct 24, 2005
26,271
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One thing that really pops out at me here is a lack of greed.

Have you ever even done business with a German company? They are one of the worst to deal with. I've never seen such "greed" and deception when doing business with foreign companies.
 

RbSX

Diamond Member
Jan 18, 2002
8,351
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German business men are as greedy as anyone else. The difference is that Americans are allowed to send 99% of their workforce overseas. You can't pull shit like that in much of Europe.

Basically it comes down to people having voting power. People in Europe want to build things, so they vote for people who allow and encourage that. America has 2 parties and neither of them want to do any real work, so they both offshore jobs as fast as possible then argue over what the minimum wage should be for all of the service jobs that everyone has. People in Germany want to be paid $20 per hour to build barbecue sets. People in America want $20 per hour to sell German barbecue sets.

I didn't mean in terms of a consumer/producer relationship.

But in terms of the unions vs management relationship. The union/management relationship in America is so cut throat that the health of the company is not really considered.

Management is out to sodomize unions, but inevitably end up with a disenfranchised labour force.

Unions are out to serve themselves so much they handicap the company.

Just look at the Big 3, amongst other stunning examples.
 

RbSX

Diamond Member
Jan 18, 2002
8,351
1
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Have you ever even done business with a German company? They are one of the worst to deal with. I've never seen such "greed" and deception when doing business with foreign companies.

Yes actually I do a lot of business in Germany and Europe in general.
 

ShawnD1

Lifer
May 24, 2003
15,987
2
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I didn't mean in terms of a consumer/producer relationship.

But in terms of the unions vs management relationship. The union/management relationship in America is so cut throat that the health of the company is not really considered.

The unions in Europe are the same mentality but the government and people in general seem to put major effort into making companies stay on an even playing field. For example, Intel was fined big time because they were doing things like giving discounts to stores that only sell Intel processors. In Europe, that's considered bad. You can't give deals that put a competitor at such a major disadvantage. In America, that kind of thing is perfectly legal. If Intel gives huge discounts as well as better purchasing selection to stores/companies that only sell Intel products, that's considered the free market doing what it does. If it naturally forms monopolies and price gouging, that's also the free market doing what it does.

So how does that work in a practical sense? Let's say I work for a car company and I want $20/h plus benefits and pension to build cars. Let's say I form a union. Now that my company has a worker's union, we can make some solid negotiations on what we want.
American mentality:
The company with the union should fail because their operating costs are higher and they price themselves out of the market. Unions are bad. This is how the free market works.
European mentality:
The company without a union should have a union so its workers are fairly compensated as well. Support the underdog to ensure there is always some form of competition in the market.

The difference between European and American mentality is seen in a lot of different things. For example, many Americans believe that the government should have absolutely no control over private property. If AT&T owns the entire US phone network, it's their god given right to control the entire US phone network and charge whatever outrageous rates they want. If you don't like it, you can feel free to build your own telephone network to compete against it.
In Europe and many other parts of the developed world, public good is more important than private property. As an example of this type of mentality, wireless phone companies in Canada are required to sell capacity to rival companies. The entire country's phone and cable networks are owned by maybe 3 companies, but there are dozens if not hundreds of companies using the same grid. As a result, the market has real competition. Instead of an area having only 1 cellular phone service provider, an area might have 5 providers all using the same towers. One of them offers wider coverage, one offers better billing but is restricted to urban areas, one is better for text and data plans, etc. Government forced competition.