How do you think Intel will segment its Coffee Lake desktop line-up?

[Bassman2003]

Is there a realistic chance that a 6 core chip (consumer or HEDT) will be able to run at 4.8 - 5GHz? Is this with a massive OC or stock or somewhere in between?

It is frustrating to choose between cores or speed. I hope the 6 core design is a happy medium between the slower HEDT chips and the 4 core variants.

 

[itsmydamnation]

Much higher clock speeds and higher IPC. AMD is certainly offering a great value with Ryzen but that's partly because Intel has become so lazy. If Intel releases a hyperthreaded six core with at least Skylake IPC that can hit 4.8-5ghz it will be THE CPU to buy for people who want the absolute highest performance. Money doesn't always play a part in purchasing hardware.

At what TDP? So because Intel adds a couple of pluses to then end of the 14nm name its now this super scaling "god process"? we just keep adding cores and upping clock and it just uses less power, just because.

If you think they are going to get any higher then the already 4.2ghz base of a 7700k on a 6 core i think you are high, with no process improvement you would be looking at around 140watt TDP ( in reality probably higher). if at peak load power intel 14nm+ to 14nm++ is 20% lower power consumption thats still 112 watt.

If we look at around 3.6ghz base without process improvement we are looking around 90 watt TDP. again if at peak load power intel 14nm+ to 14nm++ is 20% power power consumption thats 72 watt TDP.

So if intel is still targeting a 90watt TDP i think the 6 core you would see around 3.8-3.9ghz base clock best case. Only 200-300mhz higher then a 1600X

Also general IPC isn't that much better for kaby lake, i did this to stilts data.
if you remove outlyers from both sides and the few workloads that make heavy use of 256bit ops* you end up at 8% ipc difference. Since then we have had both general performance improvement across the board particularly from memory so a lot of that 8% is gone.

Zen is good enough that more cores is always going to win for throughput vs less cores with higher clock ( intel or amd). So really your only talking around 15-20% single thread advantage.

So given you can get a 1600X for 250 USD right now. paying 350USD sometime in the future doesn't seem that great to me. If you care about getting value for money for general compute with highest single thread perf you will be best off with a i5 quad core and if you care about throughput you would be best off with a 1700.

To me this intel 6 core gets eaten from all sides, cheaper higher high core count CPU'S, cheaper just as high IPC CPU's and cheaper same core around the same throughput but 20% single thread deficit CPU's. Talk about a hard sell.




* this removes 9 of the 27 benchmarks, 1 for heavy zen favor, 2( in both cases excavator performs better then Zen something looks broken) for heavy kaby lake favor and 6 256bit op benchmarks.

 

[Sweepr]

In case some people didn't check the other thread, DigiTimes just confirmed Coffee Lake is launching in August and Intel has several K SKUs planned. Also Skylake-X in June at E3-2017, with a 12C model launching in August.

 

[exquisitechar]

In case some people didn't check the other thread, DigiTimes just confirmed Coffee Lake is launching in August and Intel has several K SKUs planned. Also Skylake-X in June at E3-2017, with a 12C model launching in August.

Nice.

If the mainstream i7 really gets bumped from 4c to 6c, this is my next CPU! Just in time for my new build.

 

[ozzy702]

At what TDP? So because Intel adds a couple of pluses to then end of the 14nm name its now this super scaling "god process"? we just keep adding cores and upping clock and it just uses less power, just because.

If you think they are going to get any higher then the already 4.2ghz base of a 7700k on a 6 core i think you are high, with no process improvement you would be looking at around 140watt TDP ( in reality probably higher). if at peak load power intel 14nm+ to 14nm++ is 20% lower power consumption thats still 112 watt.

If we look at around 3.6ghz base without process improvement we are looking around 90 watt TDP. again if at peak load power intel 14nm+ to 14nm++ is 20% power power consumption thats 72 watt TDP.

So if intel is still targeting a 90watt TDP i think the 6 core you would see around 3.8-3.9ghz base clock best case. Only 200-300mhz higher then a 1600X

Also general IPC isn't that much better for kaby lake, i did this to stilts data.
if you remove outlyers from both sides and the few workloads that make heavy use of 256bit ops* you end up at 8% ipc difference. Since then we have had both general performance improvement across the board particularly from memory so a lot of that 8% is gone.

Zen is good enough that more cores is always going to win for throughput vs less cores with higher clock ( intel or amd). So really your only talking around 15-20% single thread advantage.

So given you can get a 1600X for 250 USD right now. paying 350USD sometime in the future doesn't seem that great to me. If you care about getting value for money for general compute with highest single thread perf you will be best off with a i5 quad core and if you care about throughput you would be best off with a 1700.

To me this intel 6 core gets eaten from all sides, cheaper higher high core count CPU'S, cheaper just as high IPC CPU's and cheaper same core around the same throughput but 20% single thread deficit CPU's. Talk about a hard sell.

* this removes 9 of the 27 benchmarks, 1 for heavy zen favor, 2( in both cases excavator performs better then Zen something looks broken) for heavy kaby lake favor and 6 256bit op benchmarks.

My 7700k already hits 5ghz. I see no reason why a 6 core with the same base and turbo as the 7700k couldn't happen on an improved process. Who cares about power consumption when we're talking a high clocked, high core count CPU? They aren't popping these things in laptops. Clock speed advantage alone means ~ 25% per core advantage over Zen and that's before the IPC advantage and superior memory support.

People will spend $350 without thinking on a 6 core like I described to have the best IPC and highest clocked CPU available, especially if it pops into Z170 and Z270 mobos. It's honestly chump change when looked at as a multi-year investment.

A 6 core like I described would stomp the entire Zen lineup in gaming and be fairly potent for other uses as well. I think AMD has done a fabulous job with Zen and I hope it sells very well. I may even build a Zen powered box to play around with this summer, but I still hope that Intel releases some high clocked hyperthreaded six and eight cores on both consumer and enthusiasts platforms this year.

 

[ozzy702]

Is there a realistic chance that a 6 core chip (consumer or HEDT) will be able to run at 4.8 - 5GHz? Is this with a massive OC or stock or somewhere in between?

It is frustrating to choose between cores or speed. I hope the 6 core design is a happy medium between the slower HEDT chips and the 4 core variants.

I don't see any reason why hitting 4.8ghz isn't feasible and 14nm++ with essentially skylake cores. Haswell HEDT was generally good for 4.3-4.4ghz with appropriate cooling, I don't see why 4.8ghz couldn't be the ceiling for six core chips, it certainly shouldn't be a problem on the HEDT platform with Skylake-X.

 

[tamz_msc]

My 7700k already hits 5ghz. I see no reason why a 6 core with the same base and turbo as the 7700k couldn't happen on an improved process. Who cares about power consumption when we're talking a high clocked, high core count CPU? They aren't popping these things in laptops. Clock speed advantage alone means ~ 25% per core advantage over Zen and that's before the IPC advantage and superior memory support.

People will spend $350 without thinking on a 6 core like I described to have the best IPC and highest clocked CPU available, especially if it pops into Z170 and Z270 mobos. It's honestly chump change when looked at as a multi-year investment.

A 6 core like I described would stomp the entire Zen lineup in gaming and be fairly potent for other uses as well. I think AMD has done a fabulous job with Zen and I hope it sells very well. I may even build a Zen powered box to play around with this summer, but I still hope that Intel releases some high clocked hyperthreaded six and eight cores on both consumer and enthusiasts platforms this year.

Given that the 5820K can do 4.3-4.4GHz, a 4.7-4.8 GHz from the Coffee Lake 6C/12T part is more reasonable. Whether it is priced at 350$ or not is up in the air, but that estimate is very much on the optimistic side.

 

[ozzy702]

Regarding power consumption for high clocked gaming oriented chips... that's a metric that all the Intel fanbois used against AMD in the Phenom and Bulldozer days and I said the same thing then, who cares. Slap a nice cooler on your rig and go to town. My 7700k @ 4.5ghz (my 24/7 setting), 8 drives, an MSI gaming X 1070, and four 140mm fans pulls a whopping 170watts from the wall when running Prime95, big deal. Power consumption under 200 watts is really nothing anyone should care about when we're discussing gaming desktops.

Mobile applications, sure, it's a huge consideration but a difference of 20-30 watts is nothing on the desktop.

 

[Bassman2003]

Thanks for your input. My guess is the Skylake-X model will be the one that can easily hit 4.8-5GHz and because of this it will cost around $600 - $750. I am in the market for an upgrade and need fast single thread and high core count for video editing. This might be the sweet spot. I would think the 12C model will probably take over the $1,700 spot with the rest falling in line down the price ladder.

 

[Spartak]

I think they should make all Core x's SMT enabled, distinguish between core count, but different between mobile and desktop. This way it should be clear again what an x7 is, or an x5. The distinction is now so random, the different brands are next to meaningless.
They should also make a distinction between desktop and mobile in their branding.

For desktop:
Core p7 6c / 12t
Core p5 4c / 8t
Core p3 3c / 6t

For laptop:
Core e7 4c / 8t
Core e5 3c / 6t
Core e3 2c / 4t

 

[itsmydamnation]

My 7700k already hits 5ghz. I see no reason why a 6 core with the same base and turbo as the 7700k couldn't happen on an improved process. Who cares about power consumption when we're talking a high clocked, high core count CPU? They aren't popping these things in laptops. Clock speed advantage alone means ~ 25% per core advantage over Zen and that's before the IPC advantage and superior memory support.

If TDP be damned fine, but now your not talking about an actual SKU that intel will release and only a small niche will chase ( im one of those to a point, but that is irrelevant ) . The other thing is power and its a run away train, more heat means transistors need more energy to switch at the same speed which generates more heat. If you then have to up voltage you get hit quadraticly, The more cores thus more active transistors the harder this is to contain, this 6 core has around 50% more active transistors under full load then your 7700k.

Actually think how much you expect the process to improve, not that it will just improve.

People will spend $350 without thinking on a 6 core like I described to have the best IPC and highest clocked CPU available, especially if it pops into Z170 and Z270 mobos. It's honestly chump change when looked at as a multi-year investment.

Everything is chump change when you earn decent coin, but you become significantly richer by not wasting your money. I will never buy the best CPU or GPU, I will buy at what i consider the best value for money and save my chump change. If you spend 500 more then me per upgrade and we upgrade annually* at a 7% average return then in the end you end up with an outcome that will have very little physically quantifiable benefits and in 30 years i'll end up with 54K.

But by your logic now you have to cool the beast and very quickly your going to end up at custom water loops/phase change etc and into seriously diminishing returns and my relative financial positions looks better and better, like it or not power consumption matters more and more with the more cores you have.

A 6 core like I described would stomp the entire Zen lineup in gaming and be fairly potent for other uses as well. I think AMD has done a fabulous job with Zen and I hope it sells very well. I may even build a Zen powered box to play around with this summer, but I still hope that Intel releases some high clocked hyperthreaded six and eight cores on both consumer and enthusiasts platforms this year.

Sigh i hate words like "stomp", i just did the sums for you ( i used toms 7700,7700k,6800k,6900k data as the basis) tell me where i am wrong, infact i think i am being generous. You can do what you can do overclocking wise, but if its dropping into the existing Z270 infrastructure its going to be around 90watts. AMD did the whole 95 to 125watt in the same socket thing, it doesn't work out great.

If your going to have a fixed budget and compare configurations then the bigger GPU is almost always going to win money "saved" on a 1600X vs a 7700k priced 6 core will allow a bigger GPU. Even look at the techniques devs are looking at to hit 120hz they aren't worried about CPU they are worried about GPU things like delayed shading, async compute, eye tracking with dynamic resolution etc. Then look at actual next gen game engines (something i wish Bethesda could actually do...lol) just to see how decouple and multithreaded they actually are. I think this talk is worth watching https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QJOIvACRY6g

Also just remember games are one of the few areas where DEV's highly optimize hot code. Right now Zen has no targeted optimizations and Zen is a significantly wider core then Skylake, particularly in games Zen runs the worst it will ever run right now, it is a real possibility that games that have optimizations for Zen will out IPC skylake.

Yeah sure your dream CPU will "stomp " Zen in yesterdays games, but why are you upgrading to play yesterdays games?

* yes upgrading yearly is to often but then i would have to do the compound calculations myself not use an online calculator...lol

 

[ozzy702]

If TDP be damned fine, but now your not talking about an actual SKU that intel will release and only a small niche will chase ( im one of those to a point, but that is irrelevant ) . The other thing is power and its a run away train, more heat means transistors need more energy to switch at the same speed which generates more heat. If you then have to up voltage you get hit quadraticly, The more cores thus more active transistors the harder this is to contain, this 6 core has around 50% more active transistors under full load then your 7700k.

Actually think how much you expect the process to improve, not that it will just improve.

I have been talking about an actual SKU that Intel will release. A hyperthreaded 6 core, Kaby lake cores, at the same clocks as the 7700k is absolutely reasonable on an improved process. Is it possible that there will be a lower threshold for absolute OC's, of course, which is why I said 4.8ghz-5ghz as max. I'd expect 4.8ghz to be more likely. Will a 4.8ghz OC put out a ton of heat and suck down juice, of course but that's nothing new. By your reasoning the 7700k should't exist in the first place because it's a niche product. I really don't think I'm crazy for making those predictions.



Everything is chump change when you earn decent coin, but you become significantly richer by not wasting your money. I will never buy the best CPU or GPU, I will buy at what i consider the best value for money and save my chump change. If you spend 500 more then me per upgrade and we upgrade annually* at a 7% average return then in the end you end up with an outcome that will have very little physically quantifiable benefits and in 30 years i'll end up with 54K.

But by your logic now you have to cool the beast and very quickly your going to end up at custom water loops/phase change etc and into seriously diminishing returns and my relative financial positions looks better and better, like it or not power consumption matters more and more with the more cores you have.

I upgrade my CPU/mobo every other year. The difference in cost between a Ryzen 6 core and what I expect Intel to release is likely $150-$175 which puts the delta between being frugal and buying the absolute best CPU for gaming at $75-$88 per year. That's what I call chump change and yes, well worth it for someone that wants the absolute best for their intended use. I could save $75 a year in any number of ways, or do an hour of side work...


Sigh i hate words like "stomp", i just did the sums for you ( i used toms 7700,7700k,6800k,6900k data as the basis) tell me where i am wrong, infact i think i am being generous. You can do what you can do overclocking wise, but if its dropping into the existing Z270 infrastructure its going to be around 90watts. AMD did the whole 95 to 125watt in the same socket thing, it doesn't work out great.

For 144hz gaming I suspect the a CL 6 core absolutely would stomp the competition, including the 7700k, 6900k, etc. How many Z270 mobos are having problems OC a 7700k to 4.8-5ghz... I suspect most are built fine for the product we're discussing and if they aren't I'm sure Intel would love to sell you a new mobo.

If your going to have a fixed budget and compare configurations then the bigger GPU is almost always going to win money "saved" on a 1600X vs a 7700k priced 6 core will allow a bigger GPU. Even look at the techniques devs are looking at to hit 120hz they aren't worried about CPU they are worried about GPU things like delayed shading, async compute, eye tracking with dynamic resolution etc. Then look at actual next gen game engines (something i wish Bethesda could actually do...lol) just to see how decouple and multithreaded they actually are. I think this talk is worth watching https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QJOIvACRY6g

Also just remember games are one of the few areas where DEV's highly optimize hot code. Right now Zen has no targeted optimizations and Zen is a significantly wider core then Skylake, particularly in games Zen runs the worst it will ever run right now, it is a real possibility that games that have optimizations for Zen will out IPC skylake.

Yeah sure your dream CPU will "stomp " Zen in yesterdays games, but why are you upgrading to play yesterdays games?

Certain games like Sins of a Solar Empire are dogs without extremely fast single core speeds, yeah, it's an old game but my brother, myself and a few friends still love it. I'm sure we'll see some improvement with Zen and I expect to see quite a bit with Zen+. I'm a fan of AMD and extremely impressed with what they've accomplished in Zen. I've owned far more AMD products over the years than Intel and NVIDIA and for my friends on a budget I've recommended Zen 1600s be their next builds. I'll more than likely be helping two of them build around Zen this summer. The fact still remains that if there's a six core CPU that will pop into my mobo from Intel, I'll upgrade in a heartbeat. If Intel doesn't release it then I'll reevaluate at the end of this upgrade cycle in a year and buy what's fastest on the market at that time.

* yes upgrading yearly is to often but then i would have to do the compound calculations myself not use an online calculator...lol

See comments above.

 

[itsmydamnation]

See comments above.

see comment above

 

[Shivansps]

I just not sure if Intel will do a kb rebrand for celerons and pentiums, by that time they will be producing kb 2+2 on 14nm+ only to supply celeron and pentium desktop pc sales, not sure if that is viable.

Also they need all 14nm+ production for skylake x and server skylake.

 

[jpiniero]

I just not sure if Intel will do a kb rebrand for celerons and pentiums, by that time they will be producing kb 2+2 on 14nm+ only to supply celeron and pentium desktop pc sales, not sure if that is viable.

Well, it sounds like only the K models are being rushed out; the rest of the lineup will come at the end of the year or the beginning of 2018.

For Celeron and Pentium, dud Cannonlake U die would make more sense.

 

[Conroe]

I hope they loose this iX BS. Change up the naming. AMD has stole it already (and X399.) Let the marketing department come up with something good for a change. Not a silly number but something that can be a trademark.

 

[brandonmatic]

What will Intel offer at $250 that's better than the R5 1600x and what does that part look like? A locked 4C/8T i5 clocked at around 3.8 GHz?

 

[w3rd]

Ironically, Right NOW compute... doesn't matter.

Because the entire Computer industry is about to make a major leap in performance. In the consumer market it will be centered around 4k gaming/media content. (VR/HoloLens/Voice recognition/3D Audio/interactive communication/etc)

And something like the Ryzen 1600x is going to be laughed at 4 years from now. Only because we are at a dawn of a new era of computers, Parallelism. No surprise, and we all knew this was inevitable anyways, because that argument goes back to the Athlon64 x2/Core2Duo. I think it is just going to launch much quicker and faster than we thought.

Where did all the enthusiast server-boards go..? I want a dual-socket X299 mobo, w/dual 12 cores. Remember those days, when enterprise hardware worked with operating system..? Why are hardware consumers being force fed these paltry 4c/8t chips?

I don't think too many people in the HEDT market, would shy away from a full-on $5k server rig, that can virtualize a task, upon voice commands, that you can game on, and run everything else off of. Instead of several different "systems" in the house/business.



I expect a new breed of software developer.

Making smarter software to make more efficient use, of every clock & every pulse of heat. We have not even begun to see what can be done, with 64bit software. Software efficiency is in it's infancy and that is the next big challenge for these new era of 64bit tinkerers.

How efficient can a kernel get...?

 

[jpiniero]

What will Intel offer at $250 that's better than the R5 1600x and what does that part look like? A locked 4C/8T i5 clocked at around 3.8 GHz?

Basically the 7700K rebranded.

 

[jpiniero]

Because the entire Computer industry is about to make a major leap in performance. In the consumer market it will be centered around 4k gaming/media content.

If anything, it's going the other way. People use their phone as their primary device these days. Consumer PC sales are imploding. If it wasn't for PC gaming the desktop in general would be dead.

 

[tamz_msc]

If anything, it's going the other way. People use their phone as their primary device these days. Consumer PC sales are imploding. If it wasn't for PC gaming the desktop in general would be dead.

Yet another 'PC is dead' post

 

[cbn]

Coffee Lake-X?

TDP? TIM vs. solder? clock speeds? Core/thread count (s)? Launch date predictions?

 

[cbn]

Is there a realistic chance that a 6 core chip (consumer or HEDT) will be able to run at 4.8 - 5GHz? Is this with a massive OC or stock or somewhere in between?

If Coffee lake X is offered in a 6C/6T format and equipped with a HEDT level TDP (140W, etc) and solder under the heatspreader then I think 4.8 Ghz might be possible at stock clocks.

P.S. Remember that unlike true HEDT chips, these mainstream chips in HEDT packaging (ie, X chips) have only two memory controllers and less PCIe lanes. So for any given TDP they will have higher clockspeeds than a true HEDT chip.

 

[w3rd]

If anything, it's going the other way. People use their phone as their primary device these days. Consumer PC sales are imploding. If it wasn't for PC gaming the desktop in general would be dead.

Personal Computer = Windows.

And Microsoft has been flubbing it for quite some time. They learned their lesson and Windows 10 is bringing that all together. Thus, personal computers & gaming will be back on the raise. Not only that, but with snapdragon 835, 64bit Windows 10 will be everywhere. I see a massive resurgence in Window Phones & mobile devices. Windows 10 is headed in the right direction. Not to mention the 64bit Xbox Scorpio is essentially a Windows device, and many of it's games will be able to be played across platforms. The Scorpio will be the biggest selling console in history... and again it will bring Windows 10 (& Cortana) into everyone's homes. (er.. what is a desktop...?)

PC sales will be a stream roll effect in the positive direction, as more adopt to Windows 10 and as Microsoft releases more major updates, more PC will sell. Laptops are still personal computers... and with smaller chips & thermals, expect this fall, cheap and very powerful media laptops for everyone. And PC sales are going to skyrocket this holiday season because standard have solidified around 4k now.

Do understand that the PC market has stalled for the last 18 months, because the whole entire fraking industry has waited for newer DisplayPort & HDMI versions, for 4k gaming usage.

And Vega & Volta will push 4k sales. It is the perfect storm for PC consumers.



I am redoing all three of my gaming rigs, my HTPC, and my mobile devices, plus a OLED TV this year. All on the latest standards (HDCP2.2, etc). I know tons of people who WANT to update their hardware in their houses too, but are waiting for the Industry to decide and provide these new standards. Ergo, I might build 4 PCs this year.

Wish this stuff was already out, because I wouldn't be here.... wishing.

 

[frozentundra123456]

If anything, it's going the other way. People use their phone as their primary device these days. Consumer PC sales are imploding. If it wasn't for PC gaming the desktop in general would be dead.

Well, it wouldnt be "dead", just probably growth or upgrading other than for component failure will continue to decline. For any kind of office, consumer, or data handling use, a PC is still the only way to go really. Phones definitely are taking over part of the market, but there certainly is still a place for the PC. I love my smartphone for streaming music, calls on the go, and GPS directions, but it still makes me want to throw it against the wall for any kind of usage that requires more than minimal "keyboard" input.

As for this great multi-core PC nirvanna another poster seems to envision, with everybody doing encoding, 4k gaming, and VR, well that is a very, shall we charitably say, *optimistic* prediction. It certainly will happen, but will be a small part of the PC market, especially when the consoles will eventually be able to do the same thing at lower cost.