dullard
Elite Member
- May 21, 2001
- 26,042
- 4,689
- 126
Ah, going to personal attacks. Clearly the sign that you must obviously be the only one who can win a debate. You usually are better than that.
Wow, I'm so impressed that you took some courses, courses that forgot to include statistics (or you missed that section).
No, I did not just look that up. I used my knowledge: Ph.D, chemical engineering. You know, the major that those environmental engineering courses stem from.
Platypus
Lifer
- Apr 26, 2001
- 31,046
- 321
- 136
No it's just funny as hell to yank your chain since your argument style seems to be to personally attack people and put words in their mouths. I could give a fuck either way about the issue and have nothing to offer except to call a spade a spade
If you're going to act like an arrogant fuck, at least have some evidence other than hearsay you're regurgitating from some random professor or referencing that you've taken classes on the subject, that obviously makes you an expert :roll:
Safeway
Lifer
- Jun 22, 2004
- 12,075
- 11
- 81
Platypus:
Atmospheric average concentrations: 1 pg/m^3 to 10 pg/m^3. 10 ng/m^3 is an extreme case found in the USSR in the early 1970s. The highest atmospheric mercury concentrations ever record IIRC. It was found to be extremely toxic.
House with broken CFL, assume 50% subliminates, assume 1800 sq. ft. and 8 ft ceiling height:
2.5 mg mercury in 407.76 m^3 = 6.13 ng/m^3
Hmm, two to three orders of magnitude higher than average atmospheric concentrations. Rough calculations. As for exposure time, you are in your house or office for an average of 80% of the day. With houses and offices moving to CFLs to replace incandescent to save money (both direct savings in lighting and indirect cooling load reductions), exposure is increasing. Pregnant women and children are at high risk.
Atmospheric average concentrations: 1 pg/m^3 to 10 pg/m^3. 10 ng/m^3 is an extreme case found in the USSR in the early 1970s. The highest atmospheric mercury concentrations ever record IIRC. It was found to be extremely toxic.
House with broken CFL, assume 50% subliminates, assume 1800 sq. ft. and 8 ft ceiling height:
2.5 mg mercury in 407.76 m^3 = 6.13 ng/m^3
Hmm, two to three orders of magnitude higher than average atmospheric concentrations. Rough calculations. As for exposure time, you are in your house or office for an average of 80% of the day. With houses and offices moving to CFLs to replace incandescent to save money (both direct savings in lighting and indirect cooling load reductions), exposure is increasing. Pregnant women and children are at high risk.
DrPizza
Administrator Elite Member Goat Whisperer
You're overlooking something: this thread is about the planet, not the few thousand cubic feet of air inside my home. I agree wholeheartedly with you in regard to concentrations. However, I nested all these quotes so you can go back and refer to your quote that I was responding to. You were talking about a landfill. Not indoors in a home. Furthermore, the mercury in a landfill is somewhat contained (of course, a small amount of the mercury is lost during transport to the landfill since I doubt bulbs survive being compacted in a garbage truck very well.)
CFL's result in a lower release of mercury into the environment than do incandescent bults. Now, in regard to exposure to mercury vapor in the air, sure, the concentration is much higher right after you break a CFL in your home. The exposure level is still inconsequential. (I'm still researching this point; I'll be back shortly) Or, let me explain it this way: in days of old, say 20 years ago, thermometers were made with mercury in them. They contained 2 to 3 grams of mercury. Break one of those, (and that wasn't a rare event) and you just spilled nearly 1000 times as much mercury into your home as when you break a CFL.
dullard
Elite Member
- May 21, 2001
- 26,042
- 4,689
- 126
The facts are, that if you break a CFLs in an enclosed room, then yes, you might get might get exposed to dangerous mercury. Indoor polution is something to be concerned about. That far, I agree with Safeway. But, we also need some dose of reality. So lets look at the details.
1) Suppose you are careful. Then you'd have a near zero percent chance of ever breaking a CFL. No breakage = you are better off with CFLs. The world is also better off.
2) Suppose you aren't careful. Then lets look at the worst case scenario. Suppose you break a CFL and eat it. Suppose your body ingests all 5 mg of Hg. A ~190 lb human is ~85 liters, so you are at 59 ug/L of exposure. The FDA regards 5.8 ug/L as safe levels. So, in the worst case scenerio, you are only 10 times the FDA safe level. It isn't like there is THAT much Hg in the CFL. You are above the setpoint, but not so dramatically far above that we have to be too afraid.
3) Of course, that worst case scenerio is hard to conceive. You probably won't eat all of it, and your body probably won't injest all of what you do eat. Soon, with a few reasonable assumptions and you are right near the FDA safe limit. This is a realistic scenerio with a broken CFL. Maybe you are a bit above or a bit below, but really, you aren't drastically high.
4) Or, you could follow the recommendations to open a window and dispose of the mercury to abate it even further. The traces left are negligible. Now anyone exposed is far below the safe FDA limits.
5) CFL bulbs keep dropping in Hg levels, and by the end of 2007 are supposed to be far below 5 mg. Thus, they will soon be even safer, even if you did eat the entire bulb. Heck, in a couple of years you could probably eat a couple a day and be under the safe FDA limits.
Basically, my point is that I don't like people being scared by the worst case scenerio and by doing that, they create far more mercury exposure for the world (from electricity consumption of normal lightbulbs). That is because the worst case scenerio isn't really that dangerous, the chance of it happening is slim, and there are simple remedies if it does start to happen.
You have a good point that Hg is something to watch out for. But, I just think this is a tiny mole hill, and you were making it into a mountain. Of course, in that calculation above, I left off the fact that someone could drop a whole case of them in a tiny enclosed room. If that happens, then you have a significant problem. So, we shouldn't ignore the potential harm. But lets just not blow it up out of proportion either.
1) Suppose you are careful. Then you'd have a near zero percent chance of ever breaking a CFL. No breakage = you are better off with CFLs. The world is also better off.
2) Suppose you aren't careful. Then lets look at the worst case scenario. Suppose you break a CFL and eat it. Suppose your body ingests all 5 mg of Hg. A ~190 lb human is ~85 liters, so you are at 59 ug/L of exposure. The FDA regards 5.8 ug/L as safe levels. So, in the worst case scenerio, you are only 10 times the FDA safe level. It isn't like there is THAT much Hg in the CFL. You are above the setpoint, but not so dramatically far above that we have to be too afraid.
3) Of course, that worst case scenerio is hard to conceive. You probably won't eat all of it, and your body probably won't injest all of what you do eat. Soon, with a few reasonable assumptions and you are right near the FDA safe limit. This is a realistic scenerio with a broken CFL. Maybe you are a bit above or a bit below, but really, you aren't drastically high.
4) Or, you could follow the recommendations to open a window and dispose of the mercury to abate it even further. The traces left are negligible. Now anyone exposed is far below the safe FDA limits.
5) CFL bulbs keep dropping in Hg levels, and by the end of 2007 are supposed to be far below 5 mg. Thus, they will soon be even safer, even if you did eat the entire bulb. Heck, in a couple of years you could probably eat a couple a day and be under the safe FDA limits.
Basically, my point is that I don't like people being scared by the worst case scenerio and by doing that, they create far more mercury exposure for the world (from electricity consumption of normal lightbulbs). That is because the worst case scenerio isn't really that dangerous, the chance of it happening is slim, and there are simple remedies if it does start to happen.
You have a good point that Hg is something to watch out for. But, I just think this is a tiny mole hill, and you were making it into a mountain. Of course, in that calculation above, I left off the fact that someone could drop a whole case of them in a tiny enclosed room. If that happens, then you have a significant problem. So, we shouldn't ignore the potential harm. But lets just not blow it up out of proportion either.
I try to plant as many trees as I can. When I bought my laptop Dell asked me if I want to be charged a couple of extra bucks more for the purpose of planting a tree which will help the environment get back what I took from it with purchasing that laptop. I don't know if its just a bunch of BS or not, but I did it.
I also try not to litter, and I use a recycled product when I can.
I know its not much, but if everyone else would do that, it'll be a big impact.
I also try not to litter, and I use a recycled product when I can.
I know its not much, but if everyone else would do that, it'll be a big impact.
foghorn67
Lifer
- Jan 3, 2006
- 11,883
- 63
- 91
I am a conservationists. Never a green fundie. I contribute to wildlife foundations, and I recycle, take the train to work, etc.
However, I separate myself from the radicals that have no idea of what they are doing. I enjoy both my 67 Mustang, and my halogen reading lamp. CFL's are abound in my house. But if a politician wants to take my halogen away, I will kick his/her teeth in.
CAFE is evil, and so is sugar beet tarrifs.
My idea of saving the planet is coming up with viable energy solutions, not pipe dreams, not calling our comforts that we worked hard for the 'lazy American lifestyle', not politicians selling carbon credits, and not giving third world countries a free ticket to pollute whatever they want.
I also think the Global Warming trend is a cult.
However, I separate myself from the radicals that have no idea of what they are doing. I enjoy both my 67 Mustang, and my halogen reading lamp. CFL's are abound in my house. But if a politician wants to take my halogen away, I will kick his/her teeth in.
CAFE is evil, and so is sugar beet tarrifs.
My idea of saving the planet is coming up with viable energy solutions, not pipe dreams, not calling our comforts that we worked hard for the 'lazy American lifestyle', not politicians selling carbon credits, and not giving third world countries a free ticket to pollute whatever they want.
I also think the Global Warming trend is a cult.
DrPizza
Administrator Elite Member Goat Whisperer
Uhhh, concentration is mass per m^3 of air. Sheesh, I'd think that units are pretty basic. What was that about environmental chemistry again?? What's worse is that you calculated the concentration further down in the thread using the mass after claiming that it's not about the mass of mercury.
Well, you got the math correct, but not the units. It's 6.13 times 10^-6 grams per m^3.
10^-6 grams is micrograms, not nanograms. mg is milligrams, not micrograms. Note: on this point, I'm helping your argument - your answer is only 1000th the concentration that it actually is (if the assumption that 50% sublimates immediately, which is probably high, plus most of the CFL sites I found showed slightly smaller amounts of mercury than 5mg. Then again, it's silly to suppose that the concentration is uniform throughout the house.)
Nonetheless, I was able to find this tidbit from a site that seems relatively unbiased:
(my emphasis) Note: the exposure concentration you've calculated is only 31% of the exposure level suggested in this quote. The time of exposure is a fraction of a single percent of long term exposure.
However, in short, there is really no reason to fear exposure to mercury released in your home due to a CFL breaking. There are a lot of people out there who say that any exposure is unsafe. Oddly, every one of them seems to be in the market to make money in some manner by saying that, or it's others parroting these scare tactics people.
Anyone wanting more information on mercury, THIS and the dozens of follow-up pages on that site is probably about the best starting place for info - better than reading it on ATOT (although I tried to summarize a bit.
)Here's a site that kinda points out to how dangerous the scare stories about mercury can actually be. (it relates to dental amalgams) here
Oh, and for what it's worth, I fully understand that indoor air pollution is a HUGE issue, especially in the design of newer homes and offices. And I completely agree that we should be careful with what we pollute the air with in our homes (especially newer homes that are more air tight.) I certainly wouldn't be breaking CFL's left and right just for fun. But, if one does break, it's going to bother me a hell of a lot less than when one of my kids sprays themself with that god-awful Axe spray or whatever brand they're using this month.
edit: dullard, you could eat a case of CFL's. The body absorbs methyl mercury quite easily, but very little elemental mercury is absorbed if it's been ingested. Just don't breath through your mouth while you're chewing. The mercury will simply pass on to your toilet in a day, in what I would think would be an excruciatingly painful bowel movement. At least, that's why I don't eat glass..
Bizarre fact: turkeys, chickens, etc. can ingest chunks of sharp glass and they're ground down in the gizzard.
Safeway
Lifer
- Jun 22, 2004
- 12,075
- 11
- 81
It isn't about only mass. That guy compared mg to tons to prove a point. I said it isn't only about mass, it is about mass/volume.
I know, I recognized my mistake right after I posted.
I was also going to comment on ingesting vs breathing. You hit that point as well.
I know, I recognized my mistake right after I posted.
I was also going to comment on ingesting vs breathing. You hit that point as well.
Vic
Elite Member
- Jun 12, 2001
- 50,422
- 14,337
- 136
Doh! Can't access youtube from my present location.
Anyway, what I do:
- recycle and produce as little waste as possible
- drive relatively fuel efficient cars
- consume at reasonable rate, i.e. don't buy things I don't need, and I fix things instead throwing away and replacing, etc.
- have short commute, 3 miles each way
- bike or walk instead of driving whenever possible
- Most importantly, I practice what I preach.
Anyway, what I do:
- recycle and produce as little waste as possible
- drive relatively fuel efficient cars
- consume at reasonable rate, i.e. don't buy things I don't need, and I fix things instead throwing away and replacing, etc.
- have short commute, 3 miles each way
- bike or walk instead of driving whenever possible
- Most importantly, I practice what I preach.
I've been recycling, not littering well before the Gore "fad". Also, turn off my computer when not in use, same with router and modem. Use to turn off my monitor when I walked away, but don't do it anymore now that it's significantly bigger...
As for the CFL mercury debate, I'll leave that alone. However, just to let you know how easily CFLs break: in about 10 years of using them in our house, we've never broken a single CFL. It's not like you have to juggle them daily. Simple routine is get chair, remove diffuser, screw out old, screw in new, store old. As for it getting into the environment, there are suppose to be proper disposal methods just like computers. Obviously most people don't, but I don't see people in as much of an uproar over the cell phones and computers containing both lead and mercury being dumped into our landfills daily.
As for the CFL mercury debate, I'll leave that alone. However, just to let you know how easily CFLs break: in about 10 years of using them in our house, we've never broken a single CFL. It's not like you have to juggle them daily. Simple routine is get chair, remove diffuser, screw out old, screw in new, store old. As for it getting into the environment, there are suppose to be proper disposal methods just like computers. Obviously most people don't, but I don't see people in as much of an uproar over the cell phones and computers containing both lead and mercury being dumped into our landfills daily.
Same here. Though, I kind of like that new Porsche Cayenne Hybrid that I saw online yesterday. 70mph cruising speed on electric only :thumbsup:
I designed and installed a solar cloths dryer (ok, I put up a clothesline) but hey, it
works great and I like cheating the electric co. out of a few bucks. Drive a car that's
sensible (23/32mpg)...
works great and I like cheating the electric co. out of a few bucks. Drive a car that's
sensible (23/32mpg)...
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