How do we bring manufacturing back to the US?

[Engineer]

Easiest way? remove the minimum wage, remove any take on manufacturers and reduce the enforcement of safety laws and regulations. Hardest way? Raise the minimum wage and standard of living in the poorest nations until the US is competitive.

Does that mean removing any litigation against them by removing the other laws. The reason that I ask is that one you remove safety, you'll pay for it multiple times over in lawsuits when people are hurt.

Of course, the easy way reduces our standard of living in the process. Sort of defeats the purpose.

 

[Cogman]

Does that mean removing any litigation against them by removing the other laws. The reason that I ask is that one you remove safety, you'll pay for it multiple times over in lawsuits when people are hurt.

Sure. Just remove anything that will eventually cost the manufacturer money (including reforming litigation to make it impossible to sue over workplace injuries).

It would certainly be easy to do, but not very desirable. Most countries that have a booming manufacturing industry don't have very strict regulations on manufacturing safety.

My main point is that there is a reason the manufacturing industry in the US isn't huge, and that reason is that we like our safety and our minimum wages.

 

[Engineer]

Sure. Just remove anything that will eventually cost the manufacturer money (including reforming litigation to make it impossible to sue over workplace injuries).

It would certainly be easy to do, but not very desirable. Most countries that have a booming manufacturing industry don't have very strict regulations on manufacturing safety.

My main point is that there is a reason the manufacturing industry in the US isn't huge, and that reason is that we like our safety and our minimum wages.

Tell that to Germany. Countries like China that force their currencies down, have no safety and regulations and have unfair trade (tariffs and the like regardless of what is said) not to mention a national policy of "Buy Chinese", it's going to be hard to beat them unless we dive off the cliff to the bottom.

Of course, we will just continue to lose manufacturing and have more and more people on the welfare dole, especially once they outnumber the working people and can vote themselves whatever they want (already in progress, please stay tuned).

 

[IcePickFreak]

In your view, do any of those overpaid people have college degrees or advanced professional degrees, or is the overpayment strictly limited to blue collar laborers and other working class fields?

This was my question as well.

What about the upper-echelon corporate management, who comparatively make a great deal more than the "over-paid shop monkey" percentage wise than they did a few decades ago? Or is that considered good ol' capitalism working it's magic and not a contributing factor to the high prices of US produced goods?

Nobody has any input on this? CEO's and their ilk making record incomes even in a down economy has no influence on the cost of US goods, but the evil laborers do because they won't work for $10/week like the Chinese do? (Before the flaming starts, I'm not supporting $30/hr for people to sweep the shop floor.)

I just don't understand why the middle-class always has to take the concessions while the upper-class get to continually take more, and then the middle-class still gets the blame of being greedy.

 

[blackangst1]

Nobody has any input on this? CEO's and their ilk making record incomes even in a down economy has no influence on the cost of US goods, but the evil laborers do because they won't work for $10/week like the Chinese do? (Before the flaming starts, I'm not supporting $30/hr for people to sweep the shop floor.)

I just don't understand why the middle-class always has to take the concessions while the upper-class get to continually take more, and then the middle-class still gets the blame of being greedy.

Are you wanting the rich to feel the same financial pain middle income is feeling? Or are you under the impression the rich havent lost anything in this recession, and whatever theyve lost is no big deal coz hell...they still got millions?

 

[Cogman]

Tell that to Germany. Countries like China that force their currencies down, have no safety and regulations and have unfair trade (tariffs and the like regardless of what is said) not to mention a national policy of "Buy Chinese", it's going to be hard to beat them unless we dive off the cliff to the bottom.

Of course, we will just continue to lose manufacturing and have more and more people on the welfare dole, especially once they outnumber the working people and can vote themselves whatever they want (already in progress, please stay tuned).

I should note that I wasn't saying that we should seriously do the easy route (or even the hard route for that matter). My point was more that many say that the US should get more manufacturing jobs without realizing that the only way we could really get back into the game is by removing a lot of the government overhead that we really like.

Germany shows that when the public has the right attitude about things, we don't need to regulate to get manufacturing jobs. However, it is harder to change the public attitude than it is to take the hard route I mentioned above.

I'm resigned to the fact that the US will probably never be a manufacturing giant again. (though, that isn't necessarily a bad thing).

 

[blackangst1]

I should note that I wasn't saying that we should seriously do the easy route (or even the hard route for that matter). My point was more that many say that the US should get more manufacturing jobs without realizing that the only way we could really get back into the game is by removing a lot of the government overhead that we really like.

Germany shows that when the public has the right attitude about things, we don't need to regulate to get manufacturing jobs. However, it is harder to change the public attitude than it is to take the hard route I mentioned above.

I'm resigned to the fact that the US will probably never be a manufacturing giant again. (though, that isn't necessarily a bad thing).

You do understand, dont you, the US isnt really that far behind China in manufacturing, and in many areas we're the top manufacturer?

Shit man you make it sound like we dont make shit any more.

 

[Engineer]

You do understand, dont you, the US isnt really that far behind China in manufacturing, and in many areas we're the top manufacturer?

Shit man you make it sound like we dont make shit any more.

Sure, we make lots of "big ticket" items but as for employment (which is what we're all talking about when it comes to manufacturing in the US, isn't it), we're falling behind the 8 ball. Want to reduce the welfare rolls in the US? Have good paying jobs for the lower and lower middle classes and manufacturing has fit the bill nicely until the free trade (not fair I might add) bullshit hit.

Like I said, either the masses have good paying jobs at the foundation level or they will vote themselves the treasury (or take it by force).

99% of all shoes is now made in China/Vietnam/etc. and Nike/Reebok/etc. suing the government to remove some incentives given to New Balance because they have 1,000 employees left in the US making shoes.

97% of all clothing is now made outside the US.

95% of all consumer electronics are now made outside the US.

Better hope that we don't get in a war with those guys...we'll have to fight them naked.

 

[blackangst1]

Sure, we make lots of "big ticket" items but as for employment (which is what we're all talking about when it comes to manufacturing in the US, isn't it), we're falling behind the 8 ball. Want to reduce the welfare rolls in the US? Have good paying jobs for the lower and lower middle classes and manufacturing has fit the bill nicely until the free trade (not fair I might add) bullshit hit.

Like I said, either the masses have good paying jobs at the foundation level or they will vote themselves the treasury (or take it by force).

We make far more than big ticket items. Perhaps you should peruse the .gov's details on our manufaturing and exports.

Also, IRT jobs, the other problem is many reports have come out showing with our technology etc it takes the US less people to manufacture a widget than China. What do we do? Regress?

 

[Cogman]

You do understand, dont you, the US isnt really that far behind China in manufacturing, and in many areas we're the top manufacturer?

Shit man you make it sound like we dont make shit any more.

Yes, we make stuff. However, like engineer said, we don't make lots of stuff. We makes lots of specialty and highly expensive items. But when it comes down to stuff that everyone uses, we make almost non of that. Take electronics, for example. Yes, there are a few fabs here and there in the US, but by and large, most electronic manufacturing is done somewhere in Asia.

 

[the DRIZZLE]

Yes, we make stuff. However, like engineer said, we don't make lots of stuff. We makes lots of specialty and highly expensive items. But when it comes down to stuff that everyone uses, we make almost non of that. Take electronics, for example. Yes, there are a few fabs here and there in the US, but by and large, most electronic manufacturing is done somewhere in Asia.

We are the world's third largest exporter, we make plenty of stuff. Soldering chips into boards is pretty low tech, it's making the chips that's the hard part. Trying to go backwards is not constructive. You guys need to forget about the good old days and look toward the future.

I understand Engineer's point about labor intensive manufacturing being a solution to the unemployment problem, but we simply aren't competitive in those areas. You might be able to create a few jobs by implementing tariffs (at the cost of higher prices) but that's not a long term solution. If we really just want jobs to put the unemployed to work the least costly way to do it would be to send the illegals home.

But none of that will make us grow. We can only grow through trade and increasing productivity, there is no other way.

 

[blackangst1]

Yes, we make stuff. However, like engineer said, we don't make lots of stuff. We makes lots of specialty and highly expensive items. But when it comes down to stuff that everyone uses, we make almost non of that. Take electronics, for example. Yes, there are a few fabs here and there in the US, but by and large, most electronic manufacturing is done somewhere in Asia.

You really think bringing back low skilled labor (making barbies as another poster put it) will solve our problems? So instead of just WalMart being criticized for having so many low wage jobs you want to add ABC Manufacturing to that list too? Because those types of jobs sure as shit wont pay more than $10/hour.

 

[Cogman]

You really think bringing back low skilled labor (making barbies as another poster put it) will solve our problems? So instead of just WalMart being criticized for having so many low wage jobs you want to add ABC Manufacturing to that list too? Because those types of jobs sure as shit wont pay more than $10/hour.

No, I don't. When did I say bringing back low skilled labor or manufacturing jobs would solve our problems? I'm saying that if we want large amounts of manufacturing jobs to flow back into the US, the easiest way would be to screw over the lower class and bring back sweet shops.

I'm not saying that is what we SHOULD do as a nation. The title of this thread is "How do we bring manufacturing back to the US." not "What is the most sound policy for the US to have".

 

[Cogman]

We are the world's third largest exporter, we make plenty of stuff. Soldering chips into boards is pretty low tech, it's making the chips that's the hard part. Trying to go backwards is not constructive. You guys need to forget about the good old days and look toward the future.

I understand Engineer's point about labor intensive manufacturing being a solution to the unemployment problem, but we simply aren't competitive in those areas. You might be able to create a few jobs by implementing tariffs (at the cost of higher prices) but that's not a long term solution. If we really just want jobs to put the unemployed to work the least costly way to do it would be to send the illegals home.

But none of that will make us grow. We can only grow through trade and increasing productivity, there is no other way.

Please read my posts again, I'm not advocating that we go backwards. Rather, I'm stating what we would have to do to become the largest manufacture.

BTW, we don't even really MAKE the chips in the US, we design the chips here. Most of the fabbing (which is WAY more than just soldering chips) is done elsewhere such as Korea, Malaysia, and even Israel.

 

[Engineer]

Manufacturing provides far more jobs than just low paying operator and assembly jobs as I've mentioned before.

Ah shit, just keep paying em welfare and bitching about it. I'm at the point that I just don't give a shit and you guys and your service economy can more forward. We'll see how that goes. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to see the correlation between drop in "wealth creating" manufacturing job and decline of jobs/wages and increase in welfare in this country.

/Engineer out

 

[blackangst1]

No, I don't. When did I say bringing back low skilled labor or manufacturing jobs would solve our problems? I'm saying that if we want large amounts of manufacturing jobs to flow back into the US, the easiest way would be to screw over the lower class and bring back sweet shops.

I'm not saying that is what we SHOULD do as a nation. The title of this thread is "How do we bring manufacturing back to the US." not "What is the most sound policy for the US to have".

Gotcha! :thumbsup:

 

[IcePickFreak]

Are you wanting the rich to feel the same financial pain middle income is feeling? Or are you under the impression the rich havent lost anything in this recession, and whatever theyve lost is no big deal coz hell...they still got millions?

I'm referring to the middle-class losing jobs from job cuts, the remainder of the working-class having more work to do because of a reduced workforce despite minimal, if any, increase in pay in the past few years, yet CEO's seeing a 20%+ increase in pay/benefits in a single year. The gap between the upper-echelon and the working-class is much larger than it used to be, yet it's always the working-classes fault American made stuff is so expensive.

Again, I don't support a sweeper making $30/hr, but the general consensus here seems to be damn the skilled-laborers for expecting to be able to afford a reasonable house and newer vehicle in exchange for actually being productive 50+ hours a week.

 

[Engineer]

I'm referring to the middle-class losing jobs from job cuts, the remainder of the working-class having more work to do because of a reduced workforce despite minimal, if any, increase in pay in the past few years, yet CEO's seeing a 20%+ increase in pay/benefits in a single year. The gap between the upper-echelon and the working-class is much larger than it used to be, yet it's always the working-classes fault American made stuff is so expensive.

Again, I don't support a sweeper making $30/hr, but the general consensus here seems to be damn the skilled-laborers for expecting to be able to afford a reasonable house and newer vehicle in exchange for actually being productive 50+ hours a week.

:thumbsup: ^ 1,000,000

 

[the DRIZZLE]

I'm referring to the middle-class losing jobs from job cuts, the remainder of the working-class having more work to do because of a reduced workforce despite minimal, if any, increase in pay in the past few years, yet CEO's seeing a 20%+ increase in pay/benefits in a single year. The gap between the upper-echelon and the working-class is much larger than it used to be, yet it's always the working-classes fault American made stuff is so expensive.

Again, I don't support a sweeper making $30/hr, but the general consensus here seems to be damn the skilled-laborers for expecting to be able to afford a reasonable house and newer vehicle in exchange for actually being productive 50+ hours a week.

That's a complete strawman, no one said anything of the sort.

 

[BoberFett]

I'm referring to the middle-class losing jobs from job cuts, the remainder of the working-class having more work to do because of a reduced workforce despite minimal, if any, increase in pay in the past few years, yet CEO's seeing a 20%+ increase in pay/benefits in a single year. The gap between the upper-echelon and the working-class is much larger than it used to be, yet it's always the working-classes fault American made stuff is so expensive.

Again, I don't support a sweeper making $30/hr, but the general consensus here seems to be damn the skilled-laborers for expecting to be able to afford a reasonable house and newer vehicle in exchange for actually being productive 50+ hours a week.

A CEO of a company which employs 10,000 people making $10M/yr means the CEO earns $1,000 per employee. Eliminate the CEOs pay entirely, and everyone in the company gets a miniscule raise. You want to see a big number? Look at the yearly payroll figures of those companies and compare it to the CEOs pay.

Everyone focuses on CEO pay and how awful it is that they make lots of money and how they're the reason the economy sucks, but statistically there are so few CEOs making that kind of money that the economic impact of their income is largely irrelevant. Most discussion about highly paid CEOs ignores facts and is emotionally driven.

 

[Engineer]

A CEO of a company which employs 10,000 people making $10M/yr means the CEO earns $1,000 per employee. Eliminate the CEOs pay entirely, and everyone in the company gets a miniscule raise. You want to see a big number? Look at the yearly payroll figures of those companies and compare it to the CEOs pay.

Everyone focuses on CEO pay and how awful it is that they make lots of money and how they're the reason the economy sucks, but statistically there are so few CEOs making that kind of money that the economic impact of their income is largely irrelevant. Most discussion about highly paid CEOs ignores facts and is emotionally driven.

You're right...it's not their pay...it's what they are doing, especially short term, to get their pay up that much more.

 

[IcePickFreak]

That's a complete strawman, no one said anything of the sort.

So far this thread has been talk of the cost of labor in the US being the big problem with a lot of references to over-paid labor, but not much if any consideration of the CEO and their upper echelon.

A CEO of a company which employs 10,000 people making $10M/yr means the CEO earns $1,000 per employee. Eliminate the CEOs pay entirely, and everyone in the company gets a miniscule raise. You want to see a big number? Look at the yearly payroll figures of those companies and compare it to the CEOs pay.

Everyone focuses on CEO pay and how awful it is that they make lots of money and how they're the reason the economy sucks, but statistically there are so few CEOs making that kind of money that the economic impact of their income is largely irrelevant. Most discussion about highly paid CEOs ignores facts and is emotionally driven.

I sure hope the figure for the wage of 10,000 people is a lot more than the figure of one person. The fact that that comparison is often brought up in itself it a bit sad IMO.

What I was getting at though is that the middle-class/laborers have to take concessions in these "tough times" - ie. little or no pay increases (if not pay reductions in some cases,) additional responsibilities/work due to reduced workforce - yet that top tier get's 20+% increase in pay in a single year in the midst of those tough times. Not to mention that the cost of everything is still going up... ummm, nothing is wrong with that picture?

 

[rchiu]

You're right...it's not their pay...it's what they are doing, especially short term, to get their pay up that much more.

Well CEO has been and will always try to get their pay up, but why do we only have high unemployment rate now, and not let's say late 90's, or as lately as 2007?

The facts is, the politics is a mess, the deficit is a mess, financial market is a mess, there are so much instability right now in the market and company don't like to hire/expand when there is so much instability. Would you start a big project in your house with the economy like this and you don't know if your job will be there in a few month?

People love to blame the rich, the CEO, the communist in the past have done the same to find scapegoats for all the problems. But it doesn't solve anything.

 

[Engineer]

Well CEO has been and will always try to get their pay up, but why do we only have high unemployment rate now, and not let's say late 90's, or as lately as 2007?

The facts is, the politics is a mess, the deficit is a mess, financial market is a mess, there are so much instability right now in the market and company don't like to hire/expand when there is so much instability. Would you start a big project in your house with the economy like this and you don't know if your job will be there in a few month?

People love to blame the rich, the CEO, the communist in the past have done the same to find scapegoats for all the problems. But it doesn't solve anything.

Because the bubbles that we have had to prop up the stagnant wages of the lower and middle classes (as they have lost their better paying, wealth building jobs) have now run out and they are not spending but rather taking away from the rest of us (i.e. unemployment, welfare, etc).

Would I start a job on my home? Sure...my job could be replaced in a few weeks and I'm financially secure enough that it wouldn't matter (i.e. I've had one debt in the last 6 years and that's because my wife forced me to finance a car this year instead of paying cash (but I'm paying it off before Christmas - 7 months total)). The average Joe on the street? Not a chance.

 

[Jhhnn]

Are you wanting the rich to feel the same financial pain middle income is feeling? Or are you under the impression the rich havent lost anything in this recession, and whatever theyve lost is no big deal coz hell...they still got millions?

There's a big difference between losing your job, your savings, & your home vs paper losses that affect your lifestyle not in the slightest. The latter isn't pain- it's disappointment & inconvenience, at worst.

If the people at the bottom are called upon to sacrifice, then it's obvious that the people at the top must be shown to be making sacrifices, as well, if the proposition is to be politically palatable.

Trickledown won't sell anymore, no matter how much the top of the Repub hierarchy wants it to. Lies will only carry you as far as the illusions they create, and the illusion is gone from that one.