how can we rid society of unions?

[BlahBlahYouToo]

it's quite clear that labor unions are antiquated and unnecessary in today's world.
they breed laziness and complacency. they remove all incentive to work harder when everyone is rewarded equally, regardless of the quality of the employee and the work put in.
they often carry with them unsustainable benefits such as free (or heavily subsidized) health care for life and huge pensions.

i normally wouldn't care about any of this, but when it affects me directly i start caring.

public transit and tolls are always increasing because we have unions such as the TWU threatening to strike every time their demands for raises aren't met. the workers are lazy, incompetent lowlifes that just sit around to collect a paycheck. so fares go up a quarter every other year just to pay for their undeserved wage increases.

teachers won't take a pay freeze or contribute to their health benefits.
meanwhile, i'm bombarded with radio/tv ads funded by teachers unions telling me to call the governor to say no to the budget cuts. how about you fuckers that only focus on securing tenure take a pay freeze instead. states are going bankrupt.
i think i'm to call in and tell the gov he's got my support instead. my taxes are not going to go up to pay for your cushy retirement.

why won't the decision makers just grow a pair and a brain, sever all ties with unions and hire only non-union workers?
didn't they see what happened with the UAW and GM? don't you see what's happening in greece right now?

 

[BlahBlahYouToo]

move to P&N if so desired mods.

 

[highland145]

Already in the works. Isn't the gubment taking in union labor? That puts more burden on the normal taxpayers. They realize they are getting screwed and join a union. Which leads to no non-union jobs. Which leads to Greece.

 

[dquan97]

In my opinion, the problem w/ Greece is the lack of taxation, not unionization.

 

[nick1985]

Unions today are for the weak, helpless, and lazy. Everyone knows this

 

[nick1985]

In my opinion, the problem w/ Greece is the lack of taxation, not unionization.

If Greece wasnt a welfare state, maybe they wouldnt need all of that taxation

 

[Yeem]

How about we get rid of corporate lobbyists first? Then remove unions. Then wreak vigilante havoc on greedy/evil SOABs. Then live in utopia.

 

[swanysto]

If you take down the unions you take down the middle class. In Atlanta, a non union carpenter makes anywhere from $8-15 /hr. In Chicago, Union carpenters make $40/hr. In Chicago, the Carpenter is a middle class citizen. In Atlanta, the Carpenter is about a step up from McDonald's.

But then again, you don't care about them, cause as it states clearly in you post, you only care about yourself. I find it funny you go after teachers, considering how chitty they are paid for what they do. If I had to put up with a whiny bich like you, I would want every penny possible. And cush rtirement? wow.....

 

[highland145]

If Greece wasnt a welfare state, maybe they wouldnt need all of that taxation

:thumbsup:

 

[sandorski]

Unions are not the evil you think they are.

 

[BlahBlahYouToo]

How about we get rid of corporate lobbyists first? Then remove unions. Then wreak vigilante havoc on greedy/evil SOABs. Then live in utopia.

i'm a ok with that.
lobbyists are scum that prevent forward progress.

 

[BlahBlahYouToo]

If you take down the unions you take down the middle class. In Atlanta, a non union carpenter makes anywhere from $8-15 /hr. In Chicago, Union carpenters make $40/hr. In Chicago, the Carpenter is a middle class citizen. In Atlanta, the Carpenter is about a step up from McDonald's.

But then again, you don't care about them, cause as it states clearly in you post, you only care about yourself. I find it funny you go after teachers, considering how chitty they are paid for what they do. If I had to put up with a whiny bich like you, I would want every penny possible. And cush rtirement? wow.....

i see, so you're ok with inflating wages.

they are paid what they are because they are disposable. basic supply and demand.

you obviously have no clue about the benefits teachers get.
teachers who contribute $124,000 during their lifetime for their pensions get $3.3 million in pension payments and $500,000 in health care benefits in return.
cushy doesn't begin to describe that.

 

[nonlnear]

Unions wouldn't be a problem if they weren't given the right to extort dues from employees. Truly consensual unions are A-OK in my books. That said, I dislike evil corporate lobbyists a little bit more than I dislike the evil union lobbyists. (Evil is redundant in both cases of course!)

 

[ayabe]

Unions today are for the weak, helpless, and lazy. Everyone knows this

Or those who aren't funded by their parents, right comrade?

Yes, injustice no longer exists in the workplace, employers never, EVER exploit their workers.

Fact - our working conditions, wages, and benefits would be shit without the work of organized labor in the last century.

 

[BoberFett]

Why do we need to get rid of unions? I wouldn't want to be in one myself, but why shouldn't people have the option to do so if they choose? If the capital side can be allowed to organize, then why shouldn't labor?

 

[nick1985]

Or those who aren't funded by their parents, right comrade?

lolwut?

 

[werepossum]

There are unions and then there are unions. I was very anti-union before I started doing AEC engineering, but I have since recognized great value in trade unions, especially when working outside my city. A union journeyman electrician has seven years of specialized education, including classroom work and supervised on-the-job apprenticeship; a non-union journeyman electrician has five years which may be only on-the-job training with limited supervision and instruction. A union shop has a specified allowable number of apprentices and helpers per journeyman and journeymen per master; a non-union shop has no limits and may well staff a job with one licensed journeyman and two dozen unlicensed "apprentices" (who in some areas are not infrequently illegal aliens speaking little English and reading none.) We do have one very good non-union shop in the area, but generally I would prefer only union shops. You just get better work. In fact, if I had my way all my out-of-town jobs would be union only, as you are virtually guaranteed a minimum level of competence well above that of many (probably most) non-union shops and contractors.

In my opinion you can't really compare an unskilled union, which exists mostly to protect poor employees and to extort larger raises through collective bargaining and strikes, with a skilled union which also provides value. Then there are inherently dangerous jobs such as mining, where a union may well mean the difference between life and death. So I don't think you can say that unions are always bad.

 

[Linflas]

it's quite clear that labor unions are antiquated and unnecessary in today's world.
they breed laziness and complacency. they remove all incentive to work harder when everyone is rewarded equally, regardless of the quality of the employee and the work put in.
they often carry with them unsustainable benefits such as free (or heavily subsidized) health care for life and huge pensions.

i normally wouldn't care about any of this, but when it affects me directly i start caring.

public transit and tolls are always increasing because we have unions such as the TWU threatening to strike every time their demands for raises aren't met. the workers are lazy, incompetent lowlifes that just sit around to collect a paycheck. so fares go up a quarter every other year just to pay for their undeserved wage increases.

teachers won't take a pay freeze or contribute to their health benefits.
meanwhile, i'm bombarded with radio/tv ads funded by teachers unions telling me to call the governor to say no to the budget cuts. how about you fuckers that only focus on securing tenure take a pay freeze instead. states are going bankrupt.
i think i'm to call in and tell the gov he's got my support instead. my taxes are not going to go up to pay for your cushy retirement.

why won't the decision makers just grow a pair and a brain, sever all ties with unions and hire only non-union workers?
didn't they see what happened with the UAW and GM? don't you see what's happening in greece right now?

What I saw happen is the Feds dump a ton of tax money into bankrupt companies and hand majority stakes in them to the UAW while telling the bond holders to piss off.

 

[swanysto]

i see, so you're ok with inflating wages.

they are paid what they are because they are disposable. basic supply and demand.

you obviously have no clue about the benefits teachers get.
teachers who contribute $124,000 during their lifetime for their pensions get $3.3 million in pension payments and $500,000 in health care benefits in return.
cushy doesn't begin to describe that.

Inflating wages.....I'll use Carpenter again for reference. $40/hr is not inflated by any means. First off, like you said supply and demand, which means they only work when there is work to be done. So $40/hr averages our to between 40-60k per year. Very modest wages.

The bolded is what clues me in to your complete lack of understanding of the real world. Without Unions and "inflating wages", there is no middle class. Without middle class we turn into a third world country.

I am not sure where these teachers are that are getting 3.3 million in pensions, but I am pretty sure there would not be a need for more teachers in this country if they were giving out 3.3 mill at the end of the rainbow. I sure as hell would have picked a different career path. Who exactly are you listening to? Rush?

 

[Linflas]

There are unions and then there are unions. I was very anti-union before I started doing AEC engineering, but I have since recognized great value in trade unions, especially when working outside my city. A union journeyman electrician has seven years of specialized education, including classroom work and supervised on-the-job apprenticeship; a non-union journeyman electrician has five years which may be only on-the-job training with limited supervision and instruction. A union shop has a specified allowable number of apprentices and helpers per journeyman and journeymen per master; a non-union shop has no limits and may well staff a job with one licensed journeyman and two dozen unlicensed "apprentices" (who in some areas are not infrequently illegal aliens speaking little English and reading none.) We do have one very good non-union shop in the area, but generally I would prefer only union shops. You just get better work. In fact, if I had my way all my out-of-town jobs would be union only, as you are virtually guaranteed a minimum level of competence well above that of many (probably most) non-union shops and contractors.

In my opinion you can't really compare an unskilled union, which exists mostly to protect poor employees and to extort larger raises through collective bargaining and strikes, with a skilled union which also provides value. Then there are inherently dangerous jobs such as mining, where a union may well mean the difference between life and death. So I don't think you can say that unions are always bad.

Agreed. My only heartburn comes when government steps in and tilts the playing field in favor of one side or the other. In the early days they would help the companies bust unions, now they lean more towards helping the unions bust companies. I would love to see the Beck decision upheld with the same enthusiasm some in the government bring to card check.

 

[her209]

What I saw happen is the Feds dump a ton of tax money into bankrupt companies and hand majority stakes in them to the UAW while telling the bond holders to piss off.

As I recall, the bond holders got a vote.
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/05/31/business/31gm.html

 

[Zargon]

Inflating wages.....I'll use Carpenter again for reference. $40/hr is not inflated by any means. First off, like you said supply and demand, which means they only work when there is work to be done. So $40/hr averages our to between 40-60k per year. Very modest wages.

The bolded is what clues me in to your complete lack of understanding of the real world. Without Unions and "inflating wages", there is no middle class. Without middle class we turn into a third world country.

I am not sure where these teachers are that are getting 3.3 million in pensions, but I am pretty sure there would not be a need for more teachers in this country if they were giving out 3.3 mill at the end of the rainbow. I sure as hell would have picked a different career path. Who exactly are you listening to? Rush?

except that we pay them unemployement for their accual 5 month vacation at 60% of that 40/hr

teachers dont get shitty pay, I am an IT admin, and I make slightly less per hour than my wife

I clear way more than her because I work ALOT more hours than she does. She makes a fine hourly wage, people seeem to forgot they work about 190 days a year instead the 250 or so regular people work

my wifes union just went to bat to keep a teacher on that got fired due to low performance evaulations for the last few years

instead she is staying and they cut the last teacher on the seniority list who had better evals than the lazy POS due to budget cuts

they blindly support all the union members no matter what they do unless they molest a child, and its stupid. they are wasting everyones $$ because on top of that the tenure'd teacher makes way more than the new teacher with good eval scores.

 

[highland145]

The bolded is what clues me in to your complete lack of understanding of the real world. Without Unions and "inflating wages", there is no middle class. Without middle class we turn into a third world country.

Minimal unions in my right to work state and lots of middle class.

 

[cubby1223]

If you take down the unions you take down the middle class.

Nope. I'm middle class and I've never been a part of a union. I just provide a good service and work my ass off for it.

But then again, you don't care about them, cause as it states clearly in you post, you only care about yourself.

Hmmm, so you're incapable of reasonable discussion.

Which union are you a member of?

 

[TheBDB]

Why are they unnecessary in today's world? What was the original reason for unions?

I don't think that abuses or unreasonable demands unions sometimes make means they should be completely abolished.