how can we rid society of unions?

[Schadenfroh]

Unions have an important place in our society. They have helped right many wrongs. But, they can become too powerful. If they become too powerful, then they are dangerous to businesses and their members (if the company is bankrupted by them). That is why "Right to Work" laws and other Union limiting laws are so important, they keep them in check, just as unions help keep corporations in check.

 

[BlahBlahYouToo]

Blah Blah, don't cut off your nose to spite your face. You are probably enjoying having various benefits at your workplace and at your job that you take for granted that came about as a result of labor unions. I agree that the unions aren't always good for employees, the economy, or for society. However, they have also done some good things and we shouldn't forget that.

It's funny to see so many people saying that teachers and other types of workers are receiving too much compensation without looking in the mirror. I bet that if someone tried to cut the posters' compensation that they would squeal and complain loudly.

no doubt i understand the importance of them in the past where workers were exploited and options were fewer.
but as i stated, it is in today's world where they are no longer necessary. exploit workers? a big enough scandal and it will be on front page news across america. lawyers will be lining up to represent you in court.

do you think that it is fair to pay in $100k into your retirement and receive $3M back?
do you think this is sustainable? are you willing to pay for it with your tax money that is increasing on a regular basis?

want to cut my compensation? it's been done before and i'm still here. employee contribution to health premiums have increased, wages froze last year, bonuses were lower than the previous year, and we've lost other little perks here and there.

i understand we're in a down economy and the company has to do what it has to do to keep the doors open.
if cut to the bone however, i can and will walk to somewhere else that will pay accordingly.

 

[Red Dawn]

i can and will walk to somewhere else that will pay accordingly.

Burger King?

 

[BlahBlahYouToo]

Burger King?

if desperate enough for a job, sure. there's one a few blocks away from my house that i could walk to.
but i've invested in myself enough that hopefully it won't ever come to that.

 

[Red Dawn]

if desperate enough for a job, sure. there's one a few blocks away from my house that i could walk to.
but i've invested in myself enough that hopefully it won't ever come to that.

Have it your way:thumbsup:

 

[nick1985]

Have it your way:thumbsup:

ok, that was pretty funny.

 

[PrinceofWands]

I'm fine removing unions if we first remove the reason for unions: corporations. Remove the right to incorporate, impose transparency requirements on business, beef up the regulatory agencies, get some new anti-competition laws in place that have real teeth...then I'll be the first to vote out all unions.

 

[Zebo]

No system is perfect.

Without unions, system where only capital is allowed to organize, you get misery and destitution on the one hand (workers) and fabulous wealth on the other (owners). See China.

One way to correct this is with unions, however you get the things you speak of, complacency, unyielding, uncompetitive workers hurting capital and if they go to far they kill it in a global economy if every other country does not play. At the governmental & Local level causes resentment among those who pay taxes and so forth.

I take the view empowering and enriching the most is best, needs of the many outweigh needs of few, so I think we should only trade with participating members. EU, Japan, Canada, etc, until our other partners adopt a the genuine right to organize so all workers have rights and a living wage.

I find it ironic many bitch about the Fireman or dockworker pulling 150K-200K while never complaining about Officers and CEO's making 400x that. If you know anything both use organizing to get that.

 

[Ns1]

I'm fine removing unions if we first remove the reason for unions: corporations. Remove the right to incorporate, impose transparency requirements on business, beef up the regulatory agencies, get some new anti-competition laws in place that have real teeth...then I'll be the first to vote out all unions.

lol

 

[Zargon]

Never takes papers home to grade or make lesson plans there either? No after school meetings with parents? No refresher courses during the Summer? Your're right your wife is a douchbag. Or are you just jealous of her renumeration? You get paid for overtime? WOW!!! Better cut that out right now! Crybaby!

butthurt much?

shes in grad school, but I pay for it, its also optional. she brings work home a few times a month and unless she procrastinates on a ton of it, never is working when I get home

she actually gets paid for most meetings she has to be at that occur after 3pm, which the time she contracually obligated to remain at work till.

No where did I say she had it way too good and should take a pay cut, all i said was that in general, atleast in the distrcits around here(my wife is in a smaller lowerpaying disctrict) the teachers make great money considering how much they work in a year.

any of my real gripes were about the silly shortsided decisions her union makes(and she doesnt like most of them either) but you HAVE to join the union.


Unions did ALOT in this country for us

just because something served a great purpose once, doesnt mean we have to keep them around forever.

around here the laborers union demands over 20 bucks an hour for a basic laborer that spends his day shoveling and has training.

Unions have an important place in our society. They have helped right many wrongs. But, they can become too powerful. If they become too powerful, then they are dangerous to businesses and their members (if the company is bankrupted by them). That is why "Right to Work" laws and other Union limiting laws are so important, they keep them in check, just as unions help keep corporations in check.

fair enough, no argument here

 

[Strk]

Inflating wages.....I'll use Carpenter again for reference. $40/hr is not inflated by any means. First off, like you said supply and demand, which means they only work when there is work to be done. So $40/hr averages our to between 40-60k per year. Very modest wages.

The bolded is what clues me in to your complete lack of understanding of the real world. Without Unions and "inflating wages", there is no middle class. Without middle class we turn into a third world country.

I am not sure where these teachers are that are getting 3.3 million in pensions, but I am pretty sure there would not be a need for more teachers in this country if they were giving out 3.3 mill at the end of the rainbow. I sure as hell would have picked a different career path. Who exactly are you listening to? Rush?

I'm not sure if it was answered, but I have to get going, but anyways, it's in New Jersey.

 

[Ns1]

n/m, over it

 

[soulcougher73]

Sounds like a bunch of jealous people in this thread. I am not in a union but have no problem with them and would join one if they had one for my trade.

I would rather the workers exploit the company then the other way around. Although id prefer to have neither of those happen.

 

[KlokWyze]

How about we get rid of corporate lobbyists first? Then remove unions. Then wreak vigilante havoc on greedy/evil SOABs. Then live in utopia.

exactly. the unions exist because of the massive commonplace exploitation of workers throughout many decades in many industries. ignoring this is completely retarded.

it certain contexts unions can be bad, but they are a necessary thing to counter balance widespread greed and blatant disregard for worker's health, etc.

 

[pcgeek11]

I agree that the unions only exist to serve themselves. I have never joined nor will I ever work in a union job. Why do you think there are lots of companies moving to the southeast US? Very few unions here. Boeing for example. The union monster GM helped create with Delphi etc is what drove them down the hill with no brakes. $40.00 an hour for hammering nails is way too high.

 

[BlahBlahYouToo]

Sounds like a bunch of jealous people in this thread. I am not in a union but have no problem with them and would join one if they had one for my trade.

I would rather the workers exploit the company then the other way around. Although id prefer to have neither of those happen.

yeah, i'm jealous that the teachers are making the state go bankrupt. i'm jealous that everyone's tax will increase because teachers are unwilling to make any concessions.

i'm jealous that everyone's commute to work will be more expensive because TWU subway sweepers with their GED's aren't happy with their $59k salary.

i could honestly not care any less about all of this stuff until it affects me personally.
if the teachers can get $3M pensions without bankrupting the state and raising my taxes, more power to them.

i don't get jealous when others make more money than me. i can't be bothered by things i have no control over.
i look at myself and look for ways to improve my own lifestyle.
personal responsibility, not entitlement mentality.

 

[Hacp]

You can't and shouldn't forcibly rid society of unions. You can however take away the favorable government generated laws that benefit Unions.

 

[QuantumPion]

The problem isn't unions. The problem is government using power it should not have to unfairly benefit unions at the expense of non-unions.

 

[QuantumPion]

I would rather the workers exploit the company then the other way around. Although id prefer to have neither of those happen.

"workers exploit the company" is not an available option. If the company is not making a profit, they go out of business, end of story. There are only two options that can be the case:

Option A- the company exploits the workers (which I would argue has not been the case for 50+ years).

Option B- the union exploits the workers. This has two facets. 1- union leaders enrich themselves at the expense of worker's salary (union dues), and 2- the hidden cost of fewer available jobs because of forced higher wages (e.g. for every two workers that are unionized, a third worker is unemployed).

 

[soulcougher73]

yeah, i'm jealous that the teachers are making the state go bankrupt. i'm jealous that everyone's tax will increase because teachers are unwilling to make any concessions.

i'm jealous that everyone's commute to work will be more expensive because TWU subway sweepers with their GED's aren't happy with their $59k salary.

i could honestly not care any less about all of this stuff until it affects me personally.
if the teachers can get $3M pensions without bankrupting the state and raising my taxes, more power to them.

i don't get jealous when others make more money than me. i can't be bothered by things i have no control over.
i look at myself and look for ways to improve my own lifestyle.
personal responsibility, not entitlement mentality.

And how much would it take you to sweep subway stations? I dont mind people getting paid well to do shitty jobs most people do not want to do. They have to be done and if it takes higher pay to get people to do them then so be it.

 

[MJinZ]

No system is perfect.

Without unions, system where only capital is allowed to organize, you get misery and destitution on the one hand (workers) and fabulous wealth on the other (owners). See China.

One way to correct this is with unions, however you get the things you speak of, complacency, unyielding, uncompetitive workers hurting capital and if they go to far they kill it in a global economy if every other country does not play. At the governmental & Local level causes resentment among those who pay taxes and so forth.

I take the view empowering and enriching the most is best, needs of the many outweigh needs of few, so I think we should only trade with participating members. EU, Japan, Canada, etc, until our other partners adopt a the genuine right to organize so all workers have rights and a living wage.

I find it ironic many bitch about the Fireman or dockworker pulling 150K-200K while never complaining about Officers and CEO's making 400x that. If you know anything both use organizing to get that.

It is not at all ironic when officers and CEOs are intelligent, highly educated and capable people while Firemen and dock workers are peons and do jobs that anyone can do. Valuing Gold and Platinum highly makes sense. Valuing Iron and Plastic in a similar fashion does not.

 

[MJinZ]

You can't and shouldn't forcibly rid society of unions. You can however take away the favorable government generated laws that benefit Unions.

"You should not take Police away from society. You should just strip their authority to do anything".

Comedy.

 

[QuantumPion]

And how much would it take you to sweep subway stations? I dont mind people getting paid well to do shitty jobs most people do not want to do. They have to be done and if it takes higher pay to get people to do them then so be it.

You don't mind other people getting paid more then their job is worth by third parties? Who would have thought? It's easy to be benevolent with other people's money, isn't it. :hmm:

 

[MJinZ]

exactly. the unions exist because of the massive commonplace exploitation of workers throughout many decades in many industries. ignoring this is completely retarded.

it certain contexts unions can be bad, but they are a necessary thing to counter balance widespread greed and blatant disregard for worker's health, etc.

Yes, Unions were necessary so that we did not have such high Wealth disparity.

OH WAIT.

http://seekingalpha.com/article/189649-wealth-disparities-in-u-s-approaching-1920s-levels

Now we have people earning hugely inflated amounts from companies like GM, Ford etc. Oh, did I forget that these Unions are earning OUR taxpayer money? Everything Union made artificially jacks up the price of everything.

Meanwhile, everyone else contributing to the actual advancement of social progression (aka SCIENCE, ART, INNOVATION) are paid less than someone who picks up a wrench and hammer by the day and return to their reality TV by night.

And people wonder why we are lacking graduates of degrees like Engineering and Natural Sciences?

Or why kids fail like mothereffers in school (compare to other countries). Why learn shit when you can go to a 9-5 Job laid out for you guaranteeing you a million dollar payout by the end your career and more to come into retirement?

 

[BlahBlahYouToo]

And how much would it take you to sweep subway stations? I dont mind people getting paid well to do shitty jobs most people do not want to do. They have to be done and if it takes higher pay to get people to do them then so be it.

$50k+ to sweep a subway station is pretty ridiculous. if they don't get a raise, they threaten go on strike, which is illegal by the way. but the MTA folds to TWU and our fares increase.
they would not be able to command these outrageous wages without the union and their strongarm tactics.

take away the union and let the market decide what they're worth. i have no doubt in my mind that their salaries will drop into the mid $30k range and fares would not be increasing every other year.

normally, i wouldn't give a shit but this affects me personally.