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Hope for the Muslim world?

F

forfor

Senior member
Do you think there's any hope for the Muslim world? There are some fairly stabilized Muslim nations, and some that are progressing quite quickly towards the likes of Europe. Which country do you think is the best role model for Muslims? Do you believe there will ever be a Muslim country that western populations will look at and admire?
 
I don't think "the west" will ever admire a Theocracy.
The only way Muslim countries will ever get any respect from non Muslim countries, would be to switch to a secular government, and not mix government and religion.

That will likely never happen.

Muslim countries will sadly probably forever remain 500 years+ behind.
 
I see no hope ever for the Muslim world, as far as from what their own perspective is. Which is just another dime a dozen 'conquer the world' scheme.

They'll keep screaming like fools 'death to America' everytime the CIA or some other Intel Agency pushes their RAGE RESPONSE button. Which just positions Islam one step closer to getting massively nuked back to the Ice Age.

Their Islamic State theocratic system is riff with treason from their perspective. The West "owns" the Saudi Regime and many other Muslim petty Kingdoms or Military Huntas like Pakistan. Talk about "ownage". Islam is completely owned!

But then that's actually no different in most ways than the way the Mormonism, Catholicism and other Pagan religions, the Eastern Religions and most so-called "Christians" are under extreme ownage. The list goes on and on. All the world's religions suffer from extreme ownage.

The only way to be free is through the study and application of truth in your life. With an ability called spiritual discernment to screen out the lies and sense dangers.
 
There's Turkey, Indonesia, Malaysia, and Lebanon. All Muslim, all stable, and all democratic.

There is certainly hope for the Muslim world. I would think most off them have some kind of limited/unlimited voting rights. Will there be any that western populations will admire? It depends on what you mean by admire. I mean the U.S. has so much money.

Would Haitians admire Turkey? I can't answer that. Is there anything good about Turkey? I can't answer that either, but my best guess is yes.

I don't really think Muslims need a role model. If absolutely had to choose a role model for them, I would probably suggest Turkey or India.
 
Originally posted by: forfor
Do you think there's any hope for the Muslim world? There are some fairly stabilized Muslim nations, and some that are progressing quite quickly towards the likes of Europe. Which country do you think is the best role model for Muslims? Do you believe there will ever be a Muslim country that western populations will look at and admire?
Click to expand...

Turkey ..

Westerners go there all the time...

Turkey is a role model for the Muslim world.
 
Originally posted by: Aimster
Originally posted by: forfor
Do you think there's any hope for the Muslim world? There are some fairly stabilized Muslim nations, and some that are progressing quite quickly towards the likes of Europe. Which country do you think is the best role model for Muslims? Do you believe there will ever be a Muslim country that western populations will look at and admire?
Click to expand...

Turkey ..

Westerners go there all the time...

Turkey is a role model for the Muslim world.
Click to expand...

Turkey is indeed a role model and a step in the right direction. However, I have to question how much the secular and democratic processes are internalized by all of the people of the country. The various bombings there over the past several months, along with the questioning of whether to cancel the upcoming Papal visit make me wonder whether secular institutions can be much more than a thin veneer over Islam.
 
Originally posted by: forfor
Do you think there's any hope for the Muslim world? There are some fairly stabilized Muslim nations, and some that are progressing quite quickly towards the likes of Europe. Which country do you think is the best role model for Muslims? Do you believe there will ever be a Muslim country that western populations will look at and admire?
Click to expand...


I think the Muslim "world" is just fine. It's the constant attacks and encroachment by the White Christians and their ally's that has inflamed the passions of radicals. Anyway I think its pretty obvious there is an inevitable clash of civilizations that's going to happen on a much wider scale because the White Western racists simply can't deal with people that won't bow down to them and embrace their way of life; that's what it really comes down to doesn't it? Western Whites want the Muslim world to emulate them and its the Muslims refusal to do so that has Whites so pissed off and eager for war. Democracy doesn't yield a stable or civilized nation, just look at the faliure of democracy in Russia as an example of this. The same holds true for a string of South American countries and besides, the USA isn't really interested in spreading democracy because it was responsible for engineering the downfall of democracy in Iran. Furthermore, the West talks about how Islam spreads their faith by the sword yet it's the US and it's allies like UK that bombed and occupied Iraq all with the blessings of evangelical Christians.

I'm listening to a radio stream on a conservative radio talk show here (http://www.kfbk.com) and the host (Tom Sullivan) basically twisted the reaction the illiterate 3rd world Muslims had to the popes speech and declared a war between Muslims and the "world" (e.g. Christians/Jews) was inevitable--I guess the dumb ass must have had his eyes closed this summer with Israel bombing the living crap out of Lebanon or the last 3+ yrs of the Iraq occupation.
 
Originally posted by: Aimster
Originally posted by: forfor
Do you think there's any hope for the Muslim world? There are some fairly stabilized Muslim nations, and some that are progressing quite quickly towards the likes of Europe. Which country do you think is the best role model for Muslims? Do you believe there will ever be a Muslim country that western populations will look at and admire?
Click to expand...

Turkey ..

Westerners go there all the time...

Turkey is a role model for the Muslim world.
Click to expand...


Turkey is a country run by the military, it's not a real democracy. It's hardly a good example of the path any nation should take. If anything, most Muslim countries need to emulate UAE for it's liberal atmosphere and economically forward looking policies--Pakistan will get there eventually if Musharaff has his way. Malaysia has already been there and I'd argue it's more successful than UAE or Turkey.
 
Originally posted by: 5150Joker
Anyway I think its pretty obvious there is an inevitable clash of civilizations that's going to happen on a much wider scale because the White Western racists simply can't deal with people that won't bow down to them and embrace their way of life; that's what it really comes down to doesn't it? Western Whites want the Muslim world to emulate them and its the Muslims refusal to do so that has Whites so pissed off and eager for war.
Click to expand...
I can appreciate your freedom of speech, so i won't jump all over your Western Civilization hating rant. But i will put forth a counter debate position as follows...

...Islam stands in the way of One World Government. So they will eventually be moved out of the way of that. I think we can positively assume they will not "bow down to them" as you say. So a massive war of extermination using hijacked Western Nation like the USA, Israel and Britain will occur sooner or later. That's why it's so important to realize that in the name of us here in America, these atrocities could take place. That will in turn place us at risk from Muslim counter-attacks.

The only direction of hope for muslims is to realize that they are being heavily manipulated as human beings. Seeking truth is their only way out to freedom. They'll never find it boxed inside their hatreds chanting "Death to the USA" and "Death to Israel".

 
Not likely.

Muslims have allowed the minority (roughly 20% or so) to represent the religion, and stood by silently while they continue to pervert it.
 
Originally posted by: Pabster
Not likely.

Muslims have allowed the minority (roughly 20% or so) to represent the religion, and stood by silently while they continue to pervert it.
Click to expand...

The moderate muslims have spoke out against the acts. It's just not seen much on the media because no one cares what they think. btw aimster posted a bunch of news links the other day.
 
Originally posted by: straightalker
Originally posted by: 5150Joker
Anyway I think its pretty obvious there is an inevitable clash of civilizations that's going to happen on a much wider scale because the White Western racists simply can't deal with people that won't bow down to them and embrace their way of life; that's what it really comes down to doesn't it? Western Whites want the Muslim world to emulate them and its the Muslims refusal to do so that has Whites so pissed off and eager for war.
Click to expand...
I can appreciate your freedom of speech, so i won't jump all over your Western Civilization hating rant. But i will put forth a counter debate position as follows...

...Islam stands in the way of One World Government. So they will eventually be moved out of the way of that. I think we can positively assume they will not "bow down to them" as you say. So a massive war of extermination using hijacked Western Nation like the USA, Israel and Britain will occur sooner or later. That's why it's so important to realize that in the name of us here in America, these atrocities could take place. That will in turn place us at risk from Muslim counter-attacks.

The only direction of hope for muslims is to realize that they are being heavily manipulated as human beings. Seeking truth is their only way out to freedom. They'll never find it boxed inside their hatreds chanting "Death to the USA" and "Death to Israel".
Click to expand...



I couldn't take your post seriously after you mentioned the desire to form a single world government. That hasn't happened in the thousands of years of human history and won't anytime soon either. BTW my "rant" wasn't against Western civilization, rather it was directed at White evangelicals and/or racists that think Western Christian civilization is something everyone should embrace or die. Now the same "conservatives" (joined in hordes by racists and some Jews) are trying to implicate moderate Muslims as guilty for the actions of extremists (whom they have to deal with on a daily basis in their respective nations) because they aren't denouncing them and/or taking care of them. Well the world isn't that simple, it's not like the extremists (especially terrorists) post their addresses for everyone to find them, if that was the case the US military would take care of them instead. Moderate Muslims have voiced their opinion against terrorism so many times that they're blue in the face but given the momentum of the anti-Muslim/mideastern ethnicity movement, it's fallen on deaf ears and is all but futile now. Like I said, White right-wing Christians and their allies are intent on declaring a crusade against anyone they perceive as middle easterners, regardless of their religious beliefs or lack thereof.
 
Originally posted by: 5150Joker
Originally posted by: forfor
Do you think there's any hope for the Muslim world? There are some fairly stabilized Muslim nations, and some that are progressing quite quickly towards the likes of Europe. Which country do you think is the best role model for Muslims? Do you believe there will ever be a Muslim country that western populations will look at and admire?
Click to expand...


I think the Muslim "world" is just fine. It's the constant attacks and encroachment by the White Christians and their ally's that has inflamed the passions of radicals. Anyway I think its pretty obvious there is an inevitable clash of civilizations that's going to happen on a much wider scale because the White Western racists simply can't deal with people that won't bow down to them and embrace their way of life; that's what it really comes down to doesn't it? Western Whites want the Muslim world to emulate them and its the Muslims refusal to do so that has Whites so pissed off and eager for war. Democracy doesn't yield a stable or civilized nation, just look at the faliure of democracy in Russia as an example of this. The same holds true for a string of South American countries and besides, the USA isn't really interested in spreading democracy because it was responsible for engineering the downfall of democracy in Iran. Furthermore, the West talks about how Islam spreads their faith by the sword yet it's the US and it's allies like UK that bombed and occupied Iraq all with the blessings of evangelical Christians.

I'm listening to a radio stream on a conservative radio talk show here (http://www.kfbk.com) and the host (Tom Sullivan) basically twisted the reaction the illiterate 3rd world Muslims had to the popes speech and declared a war between Muslims and the "world" (e.g. Christians/Jews) was inevitable--I guess the dumb ass must have had his eyes closed this summer with Israel bombing the living crap out of Lebanon or the last 3+ yrs of the Iraq occupation.
Click to expand...

  1. Separation of church and state
    Equality for women to be able to vote, choose their occupation, and choose whom they can marry or divorce without fear
    Freedom to choose your religion or be an atheist or agnostic
    Freedom of speech including criticizing religion like you are doing right now
    Freedom of the press and the ability to draw cartoons in a newspaper without hiding in the shadows afterwards
    Freedom to make a film about religion and not end up like Theo van Gogh
    Freedom to write a book about one's own religion and not go into hiding like Salman Rushdie
    Freedom to question things and people in religious authority without fear of retribution

Are all those things only for Western whites and should they be denied to others because their world is just fine because their religious leaders tell them so?
 
Originally posted by: 1prophet
Originally posted by: 5150Joker
Originally posted by: forfor
Do you think there's any hope for the Muslim world? There are some fairly stabilized Muslim nations, and some that are progressing quite quickly towards the likes of Europe. Which country do you think is the best role model for Muslims? Do you believe there will ever be a Muslim country that western populations will look at and admire?
Click to expand...


I think the Muslim "world" is just fine. It's the constant attacks and encroachment by the White Christians and their ally's that has inflamed the passions of radicals. Anyway I think its pretty obvious there is an inevitable clash of civilizations that's going to happen on a much wider scale because the White Western racists simply can't deal with people that won't bow down to them and embrace their way of life; that's what it really comes down to doesn't it? Western Whites want the Muslim world to emulate them and its the Muslims refusal to do so that has Whites so pissed off and eager for war. Democracy doesn't yield a stable or civilized nation, just look at the faliure of democracy in Russia as an example of this. The same holds true for a string of South American countries and besides, the USA isn't really interested in spreading democracy because it was responsible for engineering the downfall of democracy in Iran. Furthermore, the West talks about how Islam spreads their faith by the sword yet it's the US and it's allies like UK that bombed and occupied Iraq all with the blessings of evangelical Christians.

I'm listening to a radio stream on a conservative radio talk show here (http://www.kfbk.com) and the host (Tom Sullivan) basically twisted the reaction the illiterate 3rd world Muslims had to the popes speech and declared a war between Muslims and the "world" (e.g. Christians/Jews) was inevitable--I guess the dumb ass must have had his eyes closed this summer with Israel bombing the living crap out of Lebanon or the last 3+ yrs of the Iraq occupation.
Click to expand...

  1. Separation of church and state
    Equality for women to be able to vote, choose their occupation, and choose whom they can marry or divorce without fear
    Freedom to choose your religion or be an atheist or agnostic
    Freedom of speech including criticizing religion like you are doing right now
    Freedom of the press and the ability to draw cartoons in a newspaper without hiding in the shadows afterwards
    Freedom to make a film about religion and not end up like Theo van Gogh
    Freedom to write a book about one's own religion and not go into hiding like Salman Rushdie
    Freedom to question things and people in religious authority without fear of retribution

Are all those things only for Western whites and should they be denied to others because their world is just fine because their religious leaders tell them so?
Click to expand...



So how does a religion dictate that any of those rights shouldn't be given to people? Every single nation has different laws and interpretations of how they choose to follow Islam. In Pakistan women are not only allowed to vote but they've had a PM that was a woman (who by the way was a crook). You can choose to follow any religion you wish in Pakistan and you are free to practice it--of course there's going to be the occassional idiots that attack the religious minority but that happens in a lot of secular nations as well (especially Russia these days).

The biggest stumbling block to the Muslim world right now isn't religion, it's the lack of education and the pervasiveness of Wahhabism (a cultural phenomenon exported by Saudi Arabia) that has intertwined itself into Islamic culture thanks to the Mullahs that are funded by the Saudis and supported by some governments (e.g. Pakistan's ISI used Wahhabi brainwashed students to form the Taliban and contain Afghanistan pre-9/11). If there is change to be brought to the Muslim world, it has to be done internally via Islamic education that isn't perverted by Saudi Wahhabi culture. If Islams prophet married for love and advocated women's rights during a time where Christianity was far more extreme and reticent to give women freedom, then its logical to assume that modern Islam should and could be the most liberal of all religions once Wahhabism is weeded out.

However, like I mentioned, Western Christian racists aren't interested in helping bring about reform or equal rights in the mideast. They're more interested in starting wars via fearmongering and forcing their version of Christianity on Muslims of the mideast or in their ideal vision, to exterminate them entirely like they did the feral "savages" in the US.
 
Originally posted by: dna
Originally posted by: Lucifer
Isn't the UAE doing just fine too?
Click to expand...

Sheikh accused over camel boys
A legal case has been filed in a US district court alleging that the governor of Dubai and his brother enslaved about 30,000 children over the past 30 years for use as camel jockeys.
Click to expand...

Some pictures.

Yep, they are doing just fine over there.
Click to expand...



Yeah because some governor is accused of a crime, that invalidates all of UAE's accomplishments. :roll: Well we have an idiot for a president along with his VP and secretary of defense and a Jesus worshipping evangelical Congressional majority so I guess the US is an assbackward nation now too.
 
Originally posted by: forfor
Do you think there's any hope for the Muslim world? There are some fairly stabilized Muslim nations, and some that are progressing quite quickly towards the likes of Europe. Which country do you think is the best role model for Muslims? Do you believe there will ever be a Muslim country that western populations will look at and admire?
Click to expand...

Here's a hint, why don't you respect others and they'll respect you? Muslims don't need the "hope" you claim they're in dire need of? They also don't give a damn about what country you would see as a "role model." IMHO, this is a racist thread veiled as a concern for poor muslims.

Get the phuk out of their land, end the occupations and you won't have to worry about them, understand?

As for admiration, you admire their oil don't you?
 
Originally posted by: Narmer
Originally posted by: forfor
Do you think there's any hope for the Muslim world? There are some fairly stabilized Muslim nations, and some that are progressing quite quickly towards the likes of Europe. Which country do you think is the best role model for Muslims? Do you believe there will ever be a Muslim country that western populations will look at and admire?
Click to expand...

Here's a hint, why don't you respect others and they'll respect you? Muslims don't need the "hope" you claim they're in dire need of? They also don't give a damn about what country you would see as a "role model." IMHO, this is a racist thread veiled as a concern for poor muslims.

Get the phuk out of their land, end the occupations and you won't have to worry about them, understand?

As for admiration, you admire their oil don't you?
Click to expand...



QFT. Like I said all along in this thread, its all veiled racism.
 
Originally posted by: dna
Originally posted by: Lucifer
Isn't the UAE doing just fine too?
Click to expand...

Sheikh accused over camel boys
A legal case has been filed in a US district court alleging that the governor of Dubai and his brother enslaved about 30,000 children over the past 30 years for use as camel jockeys.
Click to expand...

Some pictures.

Yep, they are doing just fine over there.
Click to expand...

And what about in Israel where the entire government is under investigation for charges ranging from sexual assault to incompetence to corruption? Oops...I'm doing what you usually do by bringing in a subject that has nothing to do with the topic at hand...

Ok, what about the level of corruption at the highest level of the US Government? Oops...I did it again.
 
Originally posted by: 5150Joker
I think the Muslim "world" is just fine. ... because the White Western racists simply can't deal with people that won't bow down to them and embrace their way of life;
Click to expand...

I'm sorry.... Last time I checked there was an great influx of Muslims to Europe -- now, why would they want to be around those white racists?

Western Whites want the Muslim world to emulate them and its the Muslims refusal to do so that has Whites so pissed off and eager for war.
Click to expand...

You move into a country, you gotta adapt -- it's that simple, and it doesn't work the other way around.

Democracy doesn't yield a stable or civilized nation, just look at the faliure of democracy in Russia as an example of this.
Click to expand...

Yeah, right -- look at a country that had an authoritarian regime up until 15 years ago, and where most of the crooks are probably still around, and in key positions.

Furthermore, the West talks about how Islam spreads their faith by the sword yet it's the US and it's allies like UK that bombed and occupied Iraq all with the blessings of evangelical Christians.
Click to expand...

Don't make a religious case out of that, since for an occupied country, Iraq is getting plenty of funds, and has enough autonomy to invalidate your use of the verb "occupied". At the end of the day, wouldn't you say that the majority (Shiia), were waiting many years for the day Saddam was brought down? Weren't the US troops greeted like liberators?
 
Originally posted by: 5150Joker
Yeah because some governor is accused of a crime, that invalidates all of UAE's accomplishments. :roll: Well we have an idiot for a president along with his VP and secretary of defense and a Jesus worshipping evangelical Congressional majority so I guess the US is an assbackward nation now too.
Click to expand...

Let me know when you find some starving 2-year olds on GW's ranch.

Originally posted by: Narmer
And what about in Israel where the entire government is under investigation for charges ranging from sexual assault to incompetence to corruption? Oops...I'm doing what you usually do by bringing in a subject that has nothing to do with the topic at hand...
Click to expand...

A sexual assault against someone alreadly mature is a little bit different that kidnapping young children, starving them, and then just dumping them if they have an accident.
As for relevance, I was merely pointing out that their accomplishes, democracy-wise, are a little bit eclipsed once you have a system setup, under the authority of the leader, to kidnap and keep children for the purpose of entertaining him and others in that country.
 
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