Hope for the Muslim world?

[1prophet]

Originally posted by: 5150Joker

Originally posted by: 1prophet

Originally posted by: 5150Joker

Originally posted by: forfor
Do you think there's any hope for the Muslim world? There are some fairly stabilized Muslim nations, and some that are progressing quite quickly towards the likes of Europe. Which country do you think is the best role model for Muslims? Do you believe there will ever be a Muslim country that western populations will look at and admire?

I think the Muslim "world" is just fine. It's the constant attacks and encroachment by the White Christians and their ally's that has inflamed the passions of radicals. Anyway I think its pretty obvious there is an inevitable clash of civilizations that's going to happen on a much wider scale because the White Western racists simply can't deal with people that won't bow down to them and embrace their way of life; that's what it really comes down to doesn't it? Western Whites want the Muslim world to emulate them and its the Muslims refusal to do so that has Whites so pissed off and eager for war. Democracy doesn't yield a stable or civilized nation, just look at the faliure of democracy in Russia as an example of this. The same holds true for a string of South American countries and besides, the USA isn't really interested in spreading democracy because it was responsible for engineering the downfall of democracy in Iran. Furthermore, the West talks about how Islam spreads their faith by the sword yet it's the US and it's allies like UK that bombed and occupied Iraq all with the blessings of evangelical Christians.

I'm listening to a radio stream on a conservative radio talk show here (http://www.kfbk.com) and the host (Tom Sullivan) basically twisted the reaction the illiterate 3rd world Muslims had to the popes speech and declared a war between Muslims and the "world" (e.g. Christians/Jews) was inevitable--I guess the dumb ass must have had his eyes closed this summer with Israel bombing the living crap out of Lebanon or the last 3+ yrs of the Iraq occupation.

1. Separation of church and state
   Equality for women to be able to vote, choose their occupation, and choose whom they can marry or divorce without fear
   Freedom to choose your religion or be an atheist or agnostic
   Freedom of speech including criticizing religion like you are doing right now
   Freedom of the press and the ability to draw cartoons in a newspaper without hiding in the shadows afterwards
   Freedom to make a film about religion and not end up like Theo van Gogh
   Freedom to write a book about one's own religion and not go into hiding like Salman Rushdie
   Freedom to question things and people in religious authority without fear of retribution

Are all those things only for Western whites and should they be denied to others because their world is just fine because their religious leaders tell them so?

So how does a religion dictate that any of those rights shouldn't be given to people? Every single nation has different laws and interpretations of how they choose to follow Islam. In Pakistan women are not only allowed to vote but they've had a PM that was a woman (who by the way was a crook). You can choose to follow any religion you wish in Pakistan and you are free to practice it--of course there's going to be the occassional idiots that attack the religious minority but that happens in a lot of secular nations as well (especially Russia these days).

The biggest stumbling block to the Muslim world right now isn't religion, it's the lack of education and the pervasiveness of Wahhabism (a cultural phenomenon exported by Saudi Arabia) that has intertwined itself into Islamic culture thanks to the Mullahs that are funded by the Saudis and supported by some governments (e.g. Pakistan's ISI used Wahhabi brainwashed students to form the Taliban and contain Afghanistan pre-9/11). If there is change to be brought to the Muslim world, it has to be done internally via Islamic education that isn't perverted by Saudi Wahhabi culture. If Islams prophet married for love and advocated women's rights during a time where Christianity was far more extreme and reticent to give women freedom, then its logical to assume that modern Islam should and could be the most liberal of all religions once Wahhabism is weeded out.

If you study christianity during the middle ages the pope had the power to declare one a heretic like Theo van Gogh or Salman Rushdie and they ended up in hiding or dead, those days are gone and people can do as they please and call themselves christian or convert to any religion they want, case and point Madonna, yet no one here would say she represents Christianity.

Indonesia the largest Muslim country in the world has a very powerful and influential cleric who was released from prison quite early, and this is what he had to say about the greatest threat to Islam

"There is No Democracy in Islam"

"There is no democracy in Islam, so do not try to interpret the Quran and
turn Islam into a democracy to suit your needs. God's law comes first. It is
not up to the will of the people to decide what is right and how to live.
Rather the will of the people have to be bent to suit the will of God. It is
not democracy that we want, but Allah-cracy!

"The principles of Islam cannot be altered and and there is no democracy in
Islam or nonsense like 'democratic Islam'.

"Democracy is shirk [polytheism] and haram [forbidden]. Here we do not
compromise. Those who claim to be Muslims and do not support Shariah one
hundred percent are all munafik [hypocrites] and kafirs, they are out of
Islam. No need to discuss with these people, they are not part of the ummat
anymore. There is no need to listen to public opinion: kafirs, apostates,
liberals, atheists - they are all non-believers...

And before you say he is just one fanatic, all it takes is the actions of the few to silence the many like in this case even if they do not belong to the said religion:

Debate about self-censorship
On September 17, 2005, the Danish newspaper Politiken ran an article under the headline "Dyb angst for kritik af islam" [4] ("Profound fear of criticism of Islam"). The article discussed the difficulty encountered by the writer Kåre Bluitgen, who was initially unable to find an illustrator who was prepared to work with Bluitgen on his children's book Koranen og profeten Muhammeds liv (English: The Qur'an and the life of the Prophet Muhammad ISBN 87-638-0049-7). Three artists declined Bluitgen's proposal before an artist agreed to assist anonymously. According to Bluitgen:

One [artist declined], with reference to the murder in Amsterdam of the film director Theo van Gogh, while another [declined, citing the attack on] the lecturer at the Carsten Niebuhr Institute in Copenhagen.[4]

In October 2004, a lecturer at the Niebuhr institute at the University of Copenhagen was assaulted by five assailants who opposed his reading the Qur'an to non-Muslims during a lecture.[5]

The refusal of the first three artists to participate was seen as evidence of self-censorship and led to much debate in Denmark, with other examples for similar reasons soon emerging. Comedian Frank Hvam declared that he would (hypothetically) dare urinating on the Bible on television, but not on the Qur'an[6][7] while the translators of an essay collection critical of Islam also wished to remain anonymous due to concerns about violent reprisals.

When people are able to criticize radical Islam in the same manner as christianity without fear of reprisal then one can move forward and confront the issues openly without the threat of violence looming over their heads, since the greatest fear of a radical is not the bomb or the bullet but the very idea they could be wrong and they must kill to halt that idea since they fear openly debating it.

 

[Jadow]

Islam is a scourge.

As long as the basis of their religion is a hate filled book like the Koran, that religion has no hope. They need some kind of Vatican II, Greedo Shoots first, new version of the Koran to come out that removes all the hate.

That will be impossible to do without a central authority like the Vatican for the Islamic world.

Basically, they're f'cked and when the big western europe and America vs the Middle East war starts, they're f'cked.

 

[Rainsford]

Originally posted by: Jadow
Islam is a scourge.

As long as the basis of their religion is a hate filled book like the Koran, that religion has no hope. They need some kind of Vatican II, Greedo Shoots first, new version of the Koran to come out that removes all the hate.

That will be impossible to do without a central authority like the Vatican for the Islamic world.

Basically, they're f'cked and when the big western europe and America vs the Middle East war starts, they're f'cked.

I don't know about that, what they REALLY need is a watershed moment (like Christians and Jews had) where the vast majority of them decide that their holy book is basically a bunch of medieval bullshit, and they'd be far better off following the general ideas and staying away from the obviously crazy parts. People who suggest that the Bible is fundamentally different from the Koran obviously haven't read it lately, take a look some time, for every bigoted list of things bad in the Koran, the Bible has an equal amount just as bad.

But the thing of it is, MOST Muslims are already there, or trying to get there...it's just this small percentage holding their faith back. And no offense, but people like you are making it worse. Instead of encouraging the moderates, we're acting like their entire religion is evil and treating them accordingly...probably the WORST thing we could be doing at the moment.

 

[imported_dna]

I agree with your first paragraph (about the bible), but I have to say that the moderates have been MIA -- the letter by the Muslim community leaders to Blair (a few months ago) had some reservations regarding the "reason" people would do such a thing, and how the foreign policy should be adjusted. If you'd like to argue that these community leaders aren't the moderate we're talking about, then I'd say the situation is rather bad.....

 

[Art Vandelay]

Originally posted by: 5150Joker

Originally posted by: Aimster

Originally posted by: forfor
Do you think there's any hope for the Muslim world? There are some fairly stabilized Muslim nations, and some that are progressing quite quickly towards the likes of Europe. Which country do you think is the best role model for Muslims? Do you believe there will ever be a Muslim country that western populations will look at and admire?

Turkey ..

Westerners go there all the time...

Turkey is a role model for the Muslim world.

Turkey is a country run by the military, it's not a real democracy. It's hardly a good example of the path any nation should take. If anything, most Muslim countries need to emulate UAE for it's liberal atmosphere and economically forward looking policies--Pakistan will get there eventually if Musharaff has his way. Malaysia has already been there and I'd argue it's more successful than UAE or Turkey.

The only reason UAE is what it is is because of oil money. Not because they care about democracy, not because they have a good system. They are still controlled by royal families who take in much of the national wealth and if you have ever been to Dubai, you'll see that even though the westerners there live in pretty lovely conditions, a ton of the locals and poor immigrants live in horrible conditions. I have been there on 3 business trips and have personally seen 14 Indian immigrants living in a 1 bedroom apartment without water. How perfect is that. If there's a country that the Muslim world should take as a role model, I much prefer Turkey to any of the others.

 

[TehMac]

Well there better be hope, because if they continue the way they do, we're gunna be dealing with radiation mutated middle easterns soon.

 

[Aimster]

Turkey is a democracy ..

U.S even says so.

 

[SamurAchzar]

LOL @ Muslims in this thread (even those who claim they aren't, you know who you are).

Turkey is only a democracy because the MILITARY enforces it, preventing overthrowing of the goverment by religious fanatics. It's rather unique. Lebanon is a democracy? Yes, Syria's democracy. It's a joke.

Bottom line is, Islam will eventually piss off the west and suffer the consequences. You'll see that in the next 10 to 20 years, if not before, Europe will become right wing after it'll have enough of abusive Muslims.
The rest of the world is going forward, Muslims are going nowhere. Even the poor Asians nations are integrating into the rest of the world and quickly catching up to Western economical standards.

Hope? Yes. There is hope. Hope that Western nations ban Islam from their teritorries. Then there will be no terror, and considering how scientifically and economically poor Muslims generally are, the west doesn't face a real danger as long as Muslims are confined to their countries.

And WTF does it have to do with racism? Last time I checked, "Muslim" is not a race. It's like the French yelling "Racism".

 

[Art Vandelay]

Originally posted by: SamurAchzar
LOL @ Muslims in this thread (even those who claim they aren't, you know who you are).

Turkey is only a democracy because the MILITARY enforces it, preventing overthrowing of the goverment by religious fanatics. It's rather unique. Lebanon is a democracy? Yes, Syria's democracy. It's a joke.

Bottom line is, Islam will eventually piss off the west and suffer the consequences. You'll see that in the next 10 to 20 years, if not before, Europe will become right wing after it'll have enough of abusive Muslims.
The rest of the world is going forward, Muslims are going nowhere. Even the poor Asians nations are integrating into the rest of the world and quickly catching up to Western economical standards.

Hope? Yes. There is hope. Hope that Western nations ban Islam from their teritorries. Then there will be no terror, and considering how scientifically and economically poor Muslims generally are, the west doesn't face a real danger as long as Muslims are confined to their countries.

And WTF does it have to do with racism? Last time I checked, "Muslim" is not a race. It's like the French yelling "Racism".

This has to be by far the dumbest post I have ever seen on an internet message board. Congrats.

 

[Pabster]

Originally posted by: 5150Joker
QFT. Like I said all along in this thread, its all veiled racism.

Yep, racism for sure.

I'm automatically against ANYONE who wants me dead. And I don't give a damn what religion or faith you happen to be.

 

[Alaa]

Originally posted by: Pabster

Originally posted by: 5150Joker
QFT. Like I said all along in this thread, its all veiled racism.

Yep, racism for sure.

I'm automatically against ANYONE who wants me dead. And I don't give a damn what religion or faith you happen to be.

If you think that Muslims want to kill you then read this:
[Quran 60:8] "Allah forbiddeth you not those who warred not against you on account of religion and drove you not out from your homes, that ye should show them kindness and deal justly with them. Lo! Allah loveth the just dealers."
[?Quran 60:9] "Allah forbiddeth you only those who warred against you on account of religion and have driven you out from your homes and helped to drive you out, that ye make friends of them. Whosoever maketh friends of them - (All) such are wrong-doers."

 

[ayabe]

Originally posted by: Alaa

Originally posted by: Pabster

Originally posted by: 5150Joker
QFT. Like I said all along in this thread, its all veiled racism.

Yep, racism for sure.

I'm automatically against ANYONE who wants me dead. And I don't give a damn what religion or faith you happen to be.

If you think that Muslims want to kill you then read this:
[Quran 60:8] "Allah forbiddeth you not those who warred not against you on account of religion and drove you not out from your homes, that ye should show them kindness and deal justly with them. Lo! Allah loveth the just dealers."
[?Quran 60:9] "Allah forbiddeth you only those who warred against you on account of religion and have driven you out from your homes and helped to

You should bring that up at the next "Death to America" rally, I'm sure you would be warmly received.

 

[Aimster]

Originally posted by: ayabe

Originally posted by: Alaa

Originally posted by: Pabster

Originally posted by: 5150Joker
QFT. Like I said all along in this thread, its all veiled racism.

Yep, racism for sure.

I'm automatically against ANYONE who wants me dead. And I don't give a damn what religion or faith you happen to be.

If you think that Muslims want to kill you then read this:
[Quran 60:8] "Allah forbiddeth you not those who warred not against you on account of religion and drove you not out from your homes, that ye should show them kindness and deal justly with them. Lo! Allah loveth the just dealers."
[?Quran 60:9] "Allah forbiddeth you only those who warred against you on account of religion and have driven you out from your homes and helped to

You should bring that up at the next "Death to America" rally, I'm sure you would be warmly received.

America is not a religion...

 

[ayabe]

Originally posted by: Aimster

Originally posted by: ayabe

Originally posted by: Alaa

Originally posted by: Pabster

Originally posted by: 5150Joker
QFT. Like I said all along in this thread, its all veiled racism.

Yep, racism for sure.

I'm automatically against ANYONE who wants me dead. And I don't give a damn what religion or faith you happen to be.

If you think that Muslims want to kill you then read this:
[Quran 60:8] "Allah forbiddeth you not those who warred not against you on account of religion and drove you not out from your homes, that ye should show them kindness and deal justly with them. Lo! Allah loveth the just dealers."
[?Quran 60:9] "Allah forbiddeth you only those who warred against you on account of religion and have driven you out from your homes and helped to

You should bring that up at the next "Death to America" rally, I'm sure you would be warmly received.

America is not a religion...

To some people it is, and they see us in the current context as Christian Crusaders and that the West is declaring war on Islam. Pick nits if you want but you are arguing about nothing.

 

[SamurAchzar]

Originally posted by: Art Vandelay

Originally posted by: SamurAchzar
LOL @ Muslims in this thread (even those who claim they aren't, you know who you are).

Turkey is only a democracy because the MILITARY enforces it, preventing overthrowing of the goverment by religious fanatics. It's rather unique. Lebanon is a democracy? Yes, Syria's democracy. It's a joke.

Bottom line is, Islam will eventually piss off the west and suffer the consequences. You'll see that in the next 10 to 20 years, if not before, Europe will become right wing after it'll have enough of abusive Muslims.
The rest of the world is going forward, Muslims are going nowhere. Even the poor Asians nations are integrating into the rest of the world and quickly catching up to Western economical standards.

Hope? Yes. There is hope. Hope that Western nations ban Islam from their teritorries. Then there will be no terror, and considering how scientifically and economically poor Muslims generally are, the west doesn't face a real danger as long as Muslims are confined to their countries.

And WTF does it have to do with racism? Last time I checked, "Muslim" is not a race. It's like the French yelling "Racism".

This has to be by far the dumbest post I have ever seen on an internet message board. Congrats.

Coming from you, that's actually nice.

 

[imported_dna]

Aimster and Alaa just don't want to give up on all the technicalities and theoretical meanings and interpertations.

I am not even gonna bother with the Koran, since, like the Bible, it's a book from back in the days, whose rules no longer apply today.

As for "America is not a religion", it is rather clear that America = West = Christians = Infidels (cue Aimster, demanding "reliable" sources).

 

[Alaa]

Originally posted by: dna
Aimster and Alaa just don't want to give up on all the technicalities and theoretical meanings and interpertations.

I am not even gonna bother with the Koran, since, like the Bible, it's a book from back in the days, whose rules no longer apply today.

As for "America is not a religion", it is rather clear that America = West = Christians = Infidels (cue Aimster, demanding "reliable" sources).

why don't give up with your pathetic retarded posts? hey come on, prove I am wrong by quoting a BLOG just stop your ignorant posts and know what is right and what's wrong.
Quran is our book today yesterday and tomorrow If you don't accept that then go and debate with yourself.

 

[imported_dna]

If you believe in absolutes, then your mind is closed.

 

[Aisengard]

Originally posted by: Alaa

Originally posted by: dna
Aimster and Alaa just don't want to give up on all the technicalities and theoretical meanings and interpertations.

I am not even gonna bother with the Koran, since, like the Bible, it's a book from back in the days, whose rules no longer apply today.

As for "America is not a religion", it is rather clear that America = West = Christians = Infidels (cue Aimster, demanding "reliable" sources).

why don't give up with your pathetic retarded posts? hey come on, prove I am wrong by quoting a BLOG just stop your ignorant posts and know what is right and what's wrong.
Quran is our book today yesterday and tomorrow If you don't accept that then go and debate with yourself.

You mean if we don't accept that die by your sword, am I right?

We have every goddamned right not to accept your people's muderous interpretation of Islam. We even have every right not to 'accept' Islam, even if it's peaceful. The only thing we, as a free people of a civilized and modern nation don't have the right to do, is to force you to not practice your religion.

However, if the practice of your religion interferes with any freedoms that we enjoy, then we enjoy the right to not let you practice it that way.

That's as succint as I can put it. If you can't understand that, then grow up, look around, and report back when you do.

 

[ayabe]

Originally posted by: Aisengard

Originally posted by: Alaa

Originally posted by: dna
Aimster and Alaa just don't want to give up on all the technicalities and theoretical meanings and interpertations.

I am not even gonna bother with the Koran, since, like the Bible, it's a book from back in the days, whose rules no longer apply today.

As for "America is not a religion", it is rather clear that America = West = Christians = Infidels (cue Aimster, demanding "reliable" sources).

why don't give up with your pathetic retarded posts? hey come on, prove I am wrong by quoting a BLOG just stop your ignorant posts and know what is right and what's wrong.
Quran is our book today yesterday and tomorrow If you don't accept that then go and debate with yourself.

You mean if we don't accept that die by your sword, am I right?

We have every goddamned right not to accept your people's muderous interpretation of Islam. We even have every right not to 'accept' Islam, even if it's peaceful. The only thing we, as a free people of a civilized and modern nation don't have the right to do, is to force you to not practice your religion.

However, if the practice of your religion interferes with any freedoms that we enjoy, then we enjoy the right to not let you practice it that way.

That's as succint as I can put it. If you can't understand that, then grow up, look around, and report back when you do.

Well said.

The Muslim moderates need to start policing their own and take control of the agenda of their religion, otherwise things are going to continue to get worse and worse. Screaming for heads to roll at the slightest perceived offense isn't being peaceful, it's backwards. Honor killings are backwards, repression of women is backwards. The leaders of the faith need to upgrade their line of thinking or be prepared to suffer the consequences.

 

[bamacre]

Originally posted by: BurnItDwn
The only way Muslim countries will ever get any respect from non Muslim countries, would be to switch to a secular government, and not mix government and religion.

:laugh:

I am LMAO because we have 150,000 troops in Iraq right now.

 

[bamacre]

Originally posted by: 5150Joker
White Western racists

Can you please name one Muslim country that is anywhere near as racially diverse as the US?

 

[Alaa]

Originally posted by: Aisengard
You mean if we don't accept that die by your sword, am I right?

We have every goddamned right not to accept your people's muderous interpretation of Islam. We even have every right not to 'accept' Islam, even if it's peaceful. The only thing we, as a free people of a civilized and modern nation don't have the right to do, is to force you to not practice your religion.

However, if the practice of your religion interferes with any freedoms that we enjoy, then we enjoy the right to not let you practice it that way.

That's as succint as I can put it. If you can't understand that, then grow up, look around, and report back when you do.

do you understand the post you quoted?
If you don't accept that we take our rules from Quran and Hadith then go and debate with yourselves! this is not related to your acceptance of Islam! keep your freedom for yourself cuz my religion doesn't interfere with it.
grow up, understand what others say and reply when you do.

 

[Alaa]

Originally posted by: ayabe
Well said.

The Muslim moderates need to start policing their own and take control of the agenda of their religion, otherwise things are going to continue to get worse and worse. Screaming for heads to roll at the slightest perceived offense isn't being peaceful, it's backwards. Honor killings are backwards, repression of women is backwards. The leaders of the faith need to upgrade their line of thinking or be prepared to suffer the consequences.

I am here to let you know that terrorists are not following Islam but you keep asking for moderate Muslims who should take control of their own agenda!! you are asking for something in front of your face!

 

[imported_dna]

Originally posted by: Alaa
keep your freedom for yourself cuz my religion doesn't interfere with it.

Sorry, but when you have people declaring "We are not European-Muslims, we are Muslims in Europe", then I think there is a problem.