Honduran Election Gains Backing - Constitutional Democracy Triumph

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Craig234

Lifer
May 1, 2006
38,548
350
126
PJABBER sez,



We have gone over this many times with you but you do not seem to get the idea that things are done differently in different countries.

Constitutions are different, laws are different, precedent is different, interpretation of language is different, views of governance is different, rights are different, classes are different, history and the lessons of history are different.

What is not different, apparently, is that you continue to accept partisan distortions of what other people, smart people, experienced people, calm, rational and knowledgeable people understand to be quite real. That is called projecting.

And, frighteningly enough, we have some real dopes in the State Department and the White House that have more serious responsibilities than you that also have this extreme disconnect.

First, you lie about my position, adding another exampe to the virtually 100% rate of getting it wrong.

Second, you habe't answered the question. How is asking an opinion proposing a change?

If the people votes 'yes' the constition didn't change. If the people voted no - didn't change. THere was no change from the ballot poll.
 

PJABBER

Diamond Member
Feb 8, 2001
4,822
0
0
First, you lie about my position, adding another exampe to the virtually 100% rate of getting it wrong.

Second, you habe't answered the question. How is asking an opinion proposing a change?

If the people votes 'yes' the constition didn't change. If the people voted no - didn't change. THere was no change from the ballot poll.

Oh, I get your position, what you don't get is the principle of the issue.

Simply, any official attempt whatsoever, successful or not, to change or bypass the alternation clause of the Honduran Constitution results in the immediate ending of El Presidente's term in office. That includes soliciting opinion, putting the question to the electorate, etc. etc. etc.

The judicial branch, the legislative branch, the executive branch of government and Zelaya's own political Party agreed that he did this. Therefore, ipso facto, spit spot, he no longer was in office.

Kicking him out of the country was simply an expeditious way to get rid of a potential problem, to wit, that Zelaya and/or his supporters would instigate a coup, an overthrow of the democratic government. So the military was called upon by the entire government and Zelaya's own Party to exercise the independent Constitutional responsibility they have (though they acted in concert with the government, the military is specifically tasked to act with or without concurrence in this circumstance and thus do not require anyone's permission to uphold this tenent of the Constitution) and they bundled him up and kicked him out of the country. No shots fired.

There was no coup as the government stayed in place with an interim President pending election of a successor. A successor was democratically elected, the interim President left office voluntarily (after choosing not to run himself just so as to not complicate the election and the legitimacy of the transfer of power.) How about that? Democracy works again!

The issue came about because the new Obama Administration was not familiar with the country or its history or Honduran Constitutional law; Obama wanted to establish buddy buddy relations with idiots like Chavez of Venezuela; the Administration, including the wonderful Secretary of State Hillary, were misguided by the U.S. Ambassador Extraordinary and Plenipotentiary, a mope named Hugo Llorens and the rest is a tragicomedy of errors and willful interference in the domestic affairs of Honduras by such bad actors as the less than democracy friendly Organization of American States and Luiz Inácio Lula da Silva, President and Chief Meddler of Brazil.

Honduras dodges a bullet to its democratic governance, while the U.S. was crazily pointing fingers at them and accuses them of being not nice to Mr. Want-To-Be-A Dictator-For-Life Zelaya. Out of pure spite, the Obama Administration applies their Chicago political approach of vengeance against anyone who opposes them, right or wrong, into the diplomatic scene. They use the full power and force of the United States to strip the U.S. travel visas of interim Honduran President, now private citizen, Mr. Micheletti, his advisers and cabinet officials and the entire Honduran Supreme Court. Last week it yanked more visas from members of the interim government that did their best to keep Honduras democratic.

Nice, huh? Way to show the U.S. flag!

Willing talking points regurgitators like yourself parrot the Obama company line while willfully ignoring the realities that have been pointed out over and over again.

Believe what you will. The U.S. government officially has egg all over their face with this one. And too much hubris to back down.
 
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Corn

Diamond Member
Nov 12, 1999
6,389
29
91
Taking an opinion poll is not attempting to change the constitution.

You really are an idiot, and a liar to boot. If the attempt weren't to change the constitution, then why the referendum at the ballot box in the first place? El Presidente could have simply used Rasmussen if all he wanted was an "opinion poll".

You idiotic idealogues certainly are unabashed at your misrepresentations--too bad you really aren't as clever as you think and instead reveal your singleminded stupidity for all to witness.
 

PJABBER

Diamond Member
Feb 8, 2001
4,822
0
0
Taking an opinion poll is not attempting to change the constitution.

Ignorance is bliss, isn't it Craig? No need to understand the complexities or enjoy enlightenment - get your propaganda fixes from the extremes of the left, regurgitate pseudo-intellectual pablum at will. Aaaah, blissful ignorance, repeat ad infinitum.

No more interest on my part to repeat the history of events.

When the meds wear off, you can find as OK a summary as any on Wiki -

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2009_Honduran_constitutional_crisis

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Honduran_fourth_ballot_box_referendum

Yawn!
 
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Craig234

Lifer
May 1, 2006
38,548
350
126
Ignorance is bliss, isn't it Craig? No need to understand the complexities or enjoy enlightenment - get your propaganda fixes from the extremes of the left, regurgitate pseudo-intellectual pablum at will. Aaaah, blissful ignorance, repeat ad infinitum.

No more interest on my part to repeat the history of events.

When the meds wear off, you can find as OK a summary as any on Wiki -

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2009_Honduran_constitutional_crisis

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Honduran_fourth_ballot_box_referendum

Yawn!

Your post has exceeded the level of idiocy to reply to, the poart I looked at anyway.
 

Double Trouble

Elite Member
Oct 9, 1999
9,270
103
106
Those who call this a coup... how exactly do you suggest the country should have gone about stopping the president when he would not follow the laws of the country, ignored the rulings of the judicial court, and ordered the military to carry out actions that had already been ruled to be against the law?

Still no answer on this one? I don't know a whole lot about Honduran politics, laws, legislation, other than what I've read about the whole Zelaya mess. Regardless of whether it's Zelaya or any other person: how do you get rid of someone when they ignore the supreme court rulings, ignore the law and order to military to do something that's been held to be illegal? I don't see any alternative than to remove them from office by force if needed.
 

Craig234

Lifer
May 1, 2006
38,548
350
126
Still no answer on this one? I don't know a whole lot about Honduran politics, laws, legislation, other than what I've read about the whole Zelaya mess. Regardless of whether it's Zelaya or any other person: how do you get rid of someone when they ignore the supreme court rulings, ignore the law and order to military to do something that's been held to be illegal? I don't see any alternative than to remove them from office by force if needed.

First, you haven't answered why the opinion request is an attempt to change the constitution.

We have plenty who say hwe was tryinhg to be an indefinite dictator by doing this, what they don't is that it had no effect on the constitution and apparently was impossilble for him to have gotten a constitutional amendment on in time to run again even if he'd wanted and gotten around the costitution somehow, and his saying he was definitely not running again leaving te Presidency after the election.

Now for your question, I asked many times, what's the impeachment process? Crickets.

A country should have a good process for accusing and convicting the President, whatever it is, so not anyone can say "I heard him say he wants to change the constitution and so he's not president anymore!"

Much less protect the country from politicians trumping up charges for removing him, like exaggerating something into his 'proposing to change the constitution' just to get rid of him to block reform policies.

A process based on no written process for accusing and convicting but just braches voting they want him out and the military showing up absent any such process to exile him mentioned nowhere in the constitution... well, that's not a real good way to do things. Maybe they don't have a decent impeachment process and need to fix that.
 

Double Trouble

Elite Member
Oct 9, 1999
9,270
103
106
First, you haven't answered why the opinion request is an attempt to change the constitution.

We have plenty who say hwe was tryinhg to be an indefinite dictator by doing this, what they don't is that it had no effect on the constitution and apparently was impossilble for him to have gotten a constitutional amendment on in time to run again even if he'd wanted and gotten around the costitution somehow, and his saying he was definitely not running again leaving te Presidency after the election.

The fact is that he ignored the law and the rulings from the supreme court, and was trying to order the army to do his bidding. Regardless of what the technicalities are (like he wouldn't be able to get something changed in time etc), if the president ignores the judicial branch and starts using the army to do what he wants anyway, you know the country is heading down a very bad path. If I was there and the president started doing that kind of stuff, I'd probably take pre-emptive steps to get rid of him before he could consolidate power any further.

Now for your question, I asked many times, what's the impeachment process? Crickets.

I don't know, but I suppose the supreme court and legislature of Honduras are the ones who need to determine what the appropriate process is for removing someone.

A country should have a good process for accusing and convicting the President, whatever it is, so not anyone can say "I heard him say he wants to change the constitution and so he's not president anymore!"

Much less protect the country from politicians trumping up charges for removing him, like exaggerating something into his 'proposing to change the constitution' just to get rid of him to block reform policies.

A process based on no written process for accusing and convicting but just braches voting they want him out and the military showing up absent any such process to exile him mentioned nowhere in the constitution... well, that's not a real good way to do things. Maybe they don't have a decent impeachment process and need to fix that.

Fair enough, that sounds reasonable. I wasn't referring just to this particular occurrence, more in general. In countries that don't have a strong democratic foundation this kind of thing is all too common and usually ends up with someone like Chavez as a dictator.
 

Craig234

Lifer
May 1, 2006
38,548
350
126
The fact is that he ignored the law and the rulings from the supreme court, and was trying to order the army to do his bidding. Regardless of what the technicalities are (like he wouldn't be able to get something changed in time etc), if the president ignores the judicial branch and starts using the army to do what he wants anyway, you know the country is heading down a very bad path. If I was there and the president started doing that kind of stuff, I'd probably take pre-emptive steps to get rid of him before he could consolidate power any further.

As a side note, let's just mention that on the 'very bad path for the nation' standard, Bush would have been impeached too - as well as the 'using the military how he wanted' standard after telling the UN inspectors to leave Iraq that he'd said he wanted in there so badly or face our military attacking, and then using the military to start a war in Iraq after promising he wouldn't if the inspectors were in.

Anyway, the question remains unanswered, why is asking the public an opinion 'proposing a constitutional change'?

I don't know, but I suppose the supreme court and legislature of Honduras are the ones who need to determine what the appropriate process is for removing someone.

Honest answer, and 'I don't know' is a weak basis for supporting the removal of an elected President.

Fair enough, that sounds reasonable. I wasn't referring just to this particular occurrence, more in general. In countries that don't have a strong democratic foundation this kind of thing is all too common and usually ends up with someone like Chavez as a dictator.

OK, but so does the removal of the elected President when he turns to the people's interests and the government is overall right-wing oligarchy types.

You should ask why every nation in Latin America, if I heard right, opposed his removal. This is the same OAS the US has repeatedly relied on for supporting our position, as in the Cuban Missile Crisis.

While I advise you to do that, I on the other and acknowledge it was a major problem for his supporters that the large majority of the government favored his removal.
 
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