Honduran Election Gains Backing - Constitutional Democracy Triumph

[werepossum]

Think of it as an "anti-Monroe Doctrine", a Munich Agreement on steroids. By backing the restoration of Zelaya to power the US positioned itself to be absolved of any criticism that we were behind his (IMO legal and Constitutional) arrest and removal from power. Moreover, the Pols in Foggy Bottom figured that it would be easier to complete base agreements with Columbia were we to be seen as "responsible" to the likes of the OAS and Hugo Chavez. It was a real low point in US foreign policy and a harbinger of things to come so long as the Great Appeaser is in office. Personally my favorite moment was watching Castro standing with the rest of the leftist OAS condemning Honduras' "anti-Democratic" actions - really, you cannot make this stuff up.

Hmm. I rather like this analysis. It makes Obama seem not quite so Marxist and/or stupid, but actually clever. Valenzuela's quote makes me doubt this was intentional, but perhaps he's still playing bad cop. Shame about the Liberal Party losing power, though, seeing as how they actually backed the constitution over one of their own seizing power. Kudos to Micheletti for keeping his word to be only an interim president. Hopefully Lobo will be a good president. Honduras is pretty much a basket case, and with the threat from much larger Venezuela needs all the help she can get.

Whylaff, the military did remove Zelaya, but only at the combined request of the Supreme Court and Congress. With his own armed forces, only the military could have removed him, and since he had taken for himself the "burden" of counting the votes, either the military had to remove him or allow him to become another president-for-life.

 

[whylaff]

I understand why the military removed him. But in an institution that has previously been controlled by the military, a military that has a historically insatiable political desire, even able to control who institutional actors are on multiple levels, it is logical to question what is really going on. The corruption in the judicial branch is also very well known. Are you trading one evil for another? The debates over the effectiveness of “one-term” term limits, which are found frequently in Latin America, are legitimate. Moreover, this issue is representative of the problems that presidentialism (over parliamentary systems) in Latin America has faced consistently.

 

[Double Trouble]

I understand why the military removed him. But in an institution that has previously been controlled by the military, a military that has a historically insatiable political desire, even able to control who institutional actors are on multiple levels, it is logical to question what is really going on. The corruption in the judicial branch is also very well known. Are you trading one evil for another? The debates over the effectiveness of “one-term” term limits, which are found frequently in Latin America, are legitimate. Moreover, this issue is representative of the problems that presidentialism (over parliamentary systems) in Latin America has faced consistently.

It wasn't just the military and the judiciary that backed the ouster -- even his own party supported it. That seems like a pretty clear indication that something bad was going down. He went against the country's constitution. This was not some sort of military cabal in a coup takeover. Leftist/right wing, whatever, I don't see why the US would support a guy who was trying to take power outside of the laws of the country.

 

[PJABBER]

I don't get why the State Department continues to attack the government of Honduras, but it certainly has strained relations between us.

In Foggy Bottom, embracing your enemies means dissing your friends.

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704509704575019040086141472.html

JANUARY 25, 2010

Hammering Honduras

The State Department keeps slapping an ally.

Honduras will inaugurate president-elect Porfirio Lobo this week, two months after one of the world's most recently famous little countries held a successful democratic election. So we are left to wonder why the United States State Department is still trying to hammer anyone there who dared to participate last summer in the constitutional removal of President Manuel Zelaya from office. The U.S. has formally recognized the November presidential election, and the State Department tells us it also recognizes the congress's second vote to remove Mr. Zelaya. So what's the problem?

It appears that State's pettiness still flows from the refusal of interim president Roberto Micheletti and his cabinet, from June to December, to cave to the U.S. demand that they reinstate Mr. Zelaya. In earlier acts of pique, State stripped the U.S. visas of Mr. Micheletti, his advisers and cabinet officials and even the entire Honduran Supreme Court. Last week it yanked more visas from members of the interim government.

Insofar as Mr. Micheletti is leaving office January 27, the only explanations for this pistol-whipping would appear to be: Don't mess with Uncle Sam's regional agenda, which since April's Summit of the Americas includes overtures to Hugo Chávez, Raúl Castro and Nicaragua's Daniel Ortega.

A day after the latest U.S. slap, Mr. Micheletti said he'll withdraw from public appearances for the remainder of his term. "I am going home to my house, for the peace of the nation and because I do not want to be an obstacle to the new government," he said.

Meanwhile, also under pressure from the U.S., President-elect Lobo said last week he will let Mr. Zelaya go to the Dominican Republic despite legal charges pending against him. The U.S. has been lobbying for a "get out of jail free" card for Mr. Zelaya. Mr. Lobo no doubt wants the foreign aid tap turned back on, so this arrangement benefits both sides. Prediction: Mr. Zelaya will join the Chávez network to make constant trouble for the region's democracies. And his U.S. visa will remain intact.

The State Department has never explained its harsh treatment of Honduras, a democratic ally. And this latest bullying won't help U.S. credibility with other Latin leaders who might help us, as opposed to assisting the chavistas.

Printed in The Wall Street Journal, page A18

 

[Craig234]

No one has ever explained how a referendum asking the people for their opinion in a ballot measure that has absolutely no legal effect on the constitution is 'trying to change the constitution'.

He did get pretty unpopular with the politicians, but its not so clear the reason - are they behaving in a corrupt manner by supporting trumped of charges.

I'm not familiar enough to know the poitics on that. But the US has had a huge if not visible role in Honduran politics and policies various things suggest.

 

[PJABBER]

No one has ever explained how a referendum asking the people for their opinion in a ballot measure that has absolutely no legal effect on the constitution is 'trying to change the constitution'.

He did get pretty unpopular with the politicians, but its not so clear the reason - are they behaving in a corrupt manner by supporting trumped of charges.

I'm not familiar enough to know the poitics on that. But the US has had a huge if not visible role in Honduran politics and policies various things suggest.

Why the Honduran government moved against Zelaya, and the Honduran Constitutional basis for that move, has been explained to you many times over. You just have to read this thread to gain a clear understanding.

Are you suffering some kind of memory loss?

 

[Craig234]

The guy wanted to be a dictator -- not a liberal head of state.

Credible evidence? I assume you agree with him that 'the oligarchs are back in charge'.

 

[Craig234]

Why the Honduran government moved against Zelaya, and the Honduran Constitutional basis for that move, has been explained to you many times over. You just have to read this thread to gain a clear understanding.

Are you suffering some kind of memory loss?

Not on this. I haven't seen it explained, butobvious the answer has been so well explained you neglectedto post it when asked.

Now you can reply again, not supplying the answer again, but this time posting some other nonsense you say is an answer. You're predictable.

 

[CaptainGoodnight]

I wonder why the Obama Administration has been so gung-ho on getting into bed with such a wide variety of bad characters. It is as though they see the world in such an infinite range of shades of gray that they can't actually distinguish any differences at all.

I wonder if this image will come back to haunt him like the Rumsfeld/Saddam picture.

 

[PJABBER]

Not on this. I haven't seen it explained, butobvious the answer has been so well explained you neglectedto post it when asked.

Now you can reply again, not supplying the answer again, but this time posting some other nonsense you say is an answer. You're predictable.

You ARE suffering from memory loss. Go see a doctor.

http://forums.anandtech.com/showthread.php?t=2027436&highlight=constitution&page=4

http://www.honduras.net/honduras_constitution2.html

http://www.honduras.net/honduras_constitution2.html

The Honduran Constitution reads:

Chapter VI, Article 237: The presidential term is four years... (No right to succeed himself.)

Article 239 — No citizen that has already served as head of the Executive Branch can be President or Vice-President.

Whoever violates this law or proposes its reform, as well as those that support such violation directly or indirectly, will immediately cease in their functions and will be unable to hold any public office for a period of 10 years.

Chapter 10, Article 272:

The Armed Forces of Honduras are ... established to defend the territorial integrity and sovereignty of the Republic, keep the peace, public order and the rule of the Constitution, the principles of free suffrage and alternation in the presidency of the Republic.

Claro?

Before you claim that there are impeachment procedures in the primary document, be aware that, under Honduran Constitutional law, Article 239 holds precedence and by immediately rendering Zelaya an ordinary citizen he was not privileged to go through any impeachment whatsoever - he was automatically not El Presidente.

Though the legislature and the Supreme Court validated this, they actually did not have to. It is the responsibility of the military to do what is necessary to protect the country and specifically the principle of "alternation." The power stemming from a history of other attempts to seek the tile "El Presidente For Life."

 

[EagleKeeper]

You ARE suffering from memory loss. Go see a doctor.

http://forums.anandtech.com/showthread.php?t=2027436&highlight=constitution&page=4

http://www.honduras.net/honduras_constitution2.html

Selective memory - wrong result

 

[heyheybooboo]

More lame BLABBERness and hysteria ....

Spanish: ¿Está de acuerdo que en las elecciones generales de 2009 se instale una cuarta urna en la cual el pueblo decida la convocatoria a una asamblea nacional constituyente? = S텅.󅅅..No.

Translation: Do you agree with the installation of a fourth ballot box during the 2009 general elections so that the people can decide on the calling of a national constituent assembly? Yes or no.

This language was not about presidential succession or re-election, even if the results of the referendum were allowed to stand (referenda are governed by a legislative process in Honduras - not by executive request).

Zelaya would not have been in a position to be re-elected in November no matter how long or loud your tantrums and walls of text proclaim.

The proper action was through the judicial system --- not a military coup. Government should be of laws (except to the paper-hangin' propagandizing Cons) rather than of men (and the military).






--

 

[PJABBER]

Quote:
Spanish: ¿Está de acuerdo que en las elecciones generales de 2009 se instale una cuarta urna en la cual el pueblo decida la convocatoria a una asamblea nacional constituyente? = Sí…….ó………..No.

Translation: Do you agree with the installation of a fourth ballot box during the 2009 general elections so that the people can decide on the calling of a national constituent assembly? Yes or no.

This language was not about presidential succession or re-election, even if the results of the referendum were allowed to stand (referenda are governed by a legislative process in Honduras - not by executive request).

Zelaya would not have been in a position to be re-elected in November no matter how long or loud your tantrums and walls of text proclaim.

The proper action was through the judicial system --- not a military coup. Government should be of laws (except to the paper-hangin' propagandizing Cons) rather than of men (and the military).
--

Too bad you are as ignorant of Honduran constitutional law as you are of American! ROTFLMAO! :awe:

 

[Red Dawn]

Too bad you are as ignorant of Honduran constitutional law as you are of American! ROTFLMAO! :awe:

So you are saying that under the Honduran Constitution that a Coup was the proper way to dispose of Zeyela?

 

[EagleKeeper]

More lame BLABBERness and hysteria ....
...
The proper action was through the judicial system --- not a military coup. Government should be of laws (except to the paper-hangin' propagandizing Cons) rather than of men (and the military).

--

It was the judicial system that authorized the removal.

The military implimented that directive.

 

[Red Dawn]

It was the judicial system that authorized the removal.

The military implimented that directive.

So the corrupt Justices ordered the Military to perform the Coup.

 

[EagleKeeper]

It was the judicial system that authorized the removal.

The military implimented that directive.

So the corrupt Justices ordered the Military to perform the Coup.

By who's definition are they corrupt?
How do you determine that they are corrupt?

The people that did not like that he was removed?
Even his own political party backed the decision!

 

[Red Dawn]

By who's definition are they corrupt?
How do you determine that they are corrupt?

From what I've read it's well known that the Supreme Court of Honduras is incredibly corrupt

The people that did not like that he was removed?
Even his own political party backed the decision!

Those in power approved of it, not those who elected him.
Hey if Coups are the way they do things there and it's legal then fine, doesn't mean we have to like it or support the perpetrators of the Coup. The OAS, the EU and the UN don't.

 

[heyheybooboo]

It was the judicial system that authorized the removal.

The military implimented that directive.

4 days after his forced exile?


LOL



How 'banana-republic' of them





--

 

[Genx87]

So the corrupt Justices ordered the Military to perform the Coup.

Sounds like a conspiracy!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[Red Dawn]

Sounds like a conspiracy!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Or the typical MO for Banana Republicans.

I guess you should feel lucky Obama doesn't have someone like Ollie North behind the scenes, who knows what kind of mess someone like him could make of this situation.

 

[PJABBER]

So the corrupt Justices ordered the Military to perform the Coup.

Who said it was a coup?

 

[Double Trouble]

Those who call this a coup... how exactly do you suggest the country should have gone about stopping the president when he would not follow the laws of the country, ignored the rulings of the judicial court, and ordered the military to carry out actions that had already been ruled to be against the law?

 

[Craig234]

You ARE suffering from memory loss. Go see a doctor.

http://forums.anandtech.com/showthread.php?t=2027436&highlight=constitution&page=4

http://www.honduras.net/honduras_constitution2.html

No, you are sufferinng hallucniations. Nothing in your post shows how asking the people their opinion is proposing the change to the constitution.

 

[PJABBER]

No, you are sufferinng hallucniations. Nothing in your post shows how asking the people their opinion is proposing the change to the constitution.

PJABBER sez,

Impeachment is an American thing.

http://www.honduras.net/honduras_constitution2.html

The Honduran Constitution reads:

Chapter VI, Article 237: The presidential term is four years... (No right to succeed himself.)

Article 239 — No citizen that has already served as head of the Executive Branch can be President or Vice-President.

Whoever violates this law or proposes its reform, as well as those that support such violation directly or indirectly, will immediately cease in their functions and will be unable to hold any public office for a period of 10 years.

Chapter 10, Article 272:

The Armed Forces of Honduras are ... established to defend the territorial integrity and sovereignty of the Republic, keep the peace, public order and the rule of the Constitution, the principles of free suffrage and alternation in the presidency of the Republic.

Claro?

Before you claim that there are impeachment procedures in the primary document, be aware that, under Honduran Constitutional law, Article 239 holds precedence and by immediately rendering Zelaya an ordinary citizen he was not privileged to go through any impeachment whatsoever - he was automatically not El Presidente.

Though the legislature and the Supreme Court validated this, they actually did not have to. It is the responsibility of the military to do what is necessary to protect the country and specifically the principle of "alternation." The power stemming from a history of other attempts to seek the tile "El Presidente For Life."

We have gone over this many times with you but you do not seem to get the idea that things are done differently in different countries.

Constitutions are different, laws are different, precedent is different, interpretation of language is different, views of governance is different, rights are different, classes are different, history and the lessons of history are different.

What is not different, apparently, is that you continue to accept partisan distortions of what other people, smart people, experienced people, calm, rational and knowledgeable people understand to be quite real. That is called projecting.

And, frighteningly enough, we have some real dopes in the State Department and the White House that have more serious responsibilities than you that also have this extreme disconnect.