On the issue of whether sexual orientation is consciously chosen, the truth is clear (it is not) and you are apparently interested primarily in misrepresenting the truth. I wonder why that is.
On the issue of whether sexual orientation is consciously chosen, the truth is clear (it is not) and you are apparently interested primarily in misrepresenting the truth. I wonder why that is.
Vic
Elite Member
- Jun 12, 2001
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Well, Moonie... you know I respect your opinions, but my belief in choice really has nothing to do with religious judgement, and everything to do with self-empowerment. Bear in mind that I believe that religious concepts like Hell and Satan are incompatible with that of an Almighty God. After all, how could they be... logically? Instead, I believe that each individual judges his own worthiness. Which, if I am not mistaken, is a belief similar to your own, right? And if a person cannot take responsibility for those things that "haunt" them, then how can they ever forgive themselves?
BTW, I really don't see the analogy between hemophilia and homosexuality. Unless you are trying to say that homosexuality is a disease, and I don't believe that. In fact, I would advise caution going down that path, as that will only justify the bigots in their agenda.
"I think you are ignorant, a dolt, a philistine."
I prefer to look for the source of where people are coming from. I think Vic has a developed world view that is worth of dialogue and I feel the same about you.
I prefer to look for the source of where people are coming from. I think Vic has a developed world view that is worth of dialogue and I feel the same about you.
I wonder why you are primarily interested in misrepresenting my position. Please indicate to me where I have said sexual orientation is consciously chosen.
oops, my apologies, I mixed you up with the other guy Vic. you're both kind of boring and dumb on this issue, so you sort of blended into the one person in my mind. so sorry
My point is that hemophilia and homosexuality, if it has a genetic component, appears in people as a mater of fate. You do not choose your genes. It would be an objectively bad decision similarly, I think, for an Eskimo to choose blue eyes.
And do I do not think we choose our feelings of worthiness. I know that we were all made to feel the worst in the world and have almost no chance to discover that due to our motivation to never re-experience that.
Self empowerment is all well and good, but my point is that I think it's you who is imputing a victimization isn't necessarily there.
And what is an "unconscious decision", pray tell? (What is the unconscious, for that matter? What other kinds of "decisions" does the unconscious mind make?) What kind of precedents can you describe in terms of "unconscious decisions" determining our enduring, life-long, stable personality traits? For example is left-handedness determined by unconscious decisons? The fact remains that you have asserted, in this thread and other threads, that sexual orientation is chosen.
You opinion on the morality of homosexual sex is not of interest to me. Your misrepresentation of reality is the issue of discussion here.
This is a false dichotomy. Saying that our sexual preferences (or other preferences, like hand preference) lie outside our conscious control is not equivalent to saying we are powerless to control our fate. We have no conscious control over MOST aspects of our personality - our intelligence, our aptitude for mathematics, whether we innately prefer our left or right hand for tasks like writing or holding a fork, whether we are innately introverted or extroverted, etc. We come into life with a biological inheritance, which infuences every aspect of our lives. To deny that is foolishness. And acknowledging this is not equivalent to saying we have no control over our lives. If you are born without maths aptitudes, you can study hard and improve your maths skills, but you are never going to be an Einstein. But a very small percentage of kids are born "maths gifted", they are doing calculus in primary school without ever having been taught it, they have a natural gift in the maths area, they are capable of mathematical reasoning at a university course level when they are still in primary school. We all inherit a set of gifts and deficits, and part of life is learning how to make the most of your abilties and make up for your deficits. You remind me of people who are lacking in singing or music talent, yet who audition for shows like American Idol. Do these idiots not understand that no matter how hard they try, they will never sound like Celine Dion? They are so convinced that EVERYTHING that happens in their life lies within the realm of conscious choice. In fact, people are born with brilliant singing voices, and these people will always sound like shit. The task of life is to make do with what you are given (your personality, your aptitudes, your sexual orientation, etc.) And by the way, I see homosexuality (and the personality and creative attributes that go with it) as a biological gift, I think gay people make enormous (unacknowledged) contributions to our society.
Lol, I don't want your acceptance, you fvck-wit, because there is nothing about me that requires your "acceptance". Your "soft" bigotry is even more nauseating to me than the more overt bigotry of a redneck, actually.
Vic
Elite Member
- Jun 12, 2001
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Hmm... clearly I struck some kind of nerve or else you would be able to argue logically without all this ad hominem.
It's interesting to me that you take more offense from someone who does not condemn you than from the people who do condemn you (and even mean you harm). I must say that's a really fsckin' big chip on your shoulder there, aidanjm.
It's interesting to me that you take more offense from someone who does not condemn you than from the people who do condemn you (and even mean you harm). I must say that's a really fsckin' big chip on your shoulder there, aidanjm.
Do you even understand what an ad hominem argument is? I do not use ad hominems. I may occasionally choose to insult people - particularly really, really stupid people like you. My insults are always quite separate to my arguments.
I take offence at your stupidity and your lack of balls.
Vic
Elite Member
- Jun 12, 2001
- 50,422
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LOL! Trust me, man, you currently have no argument but your insults. Your opinions are not fact simply because you wish them so. For example, no amount of genetic talent in the world will amount to sh!t without training and education. Einstein wasn't born knowing the language of calculus.
The "lack of balls" is really hilarious. Let me ask you, am I backing down from you in the face of all your little insults? Am I scared of you? OMG you are toooo funny, really. All this bluster because you think I knocked over your sacred cow. Hiding behind your nested quotes. It'd be even funnier if it wasn't so tragic that you hate a person who would dare to disagree with you more than those who would kill you for what you are.
Meh. I need wish you no harm or insult. You have already done that to yourself far more than I would ever wish, and all I have to do is remind you of that. Like I said, I bear no ill will towards because you are gay, but it is sad that it appears that you have made the fact that you are gay turn you into an asshole.
The "lack of balls" is really hilarious. Let me ask you, am I backing down from you in the face of all your little insults? Am I scared of you? OMG you are toooo funny, really. All this bluster because you think I knocked over your sacred cow. Hiding behind your nested quotes. It'd be even funnier if it wasn't so tragic that you hate a person who would dare to disagree with you more than those who would kill you for what you are.
Meh. I need wish you no harm or insult. You have already done that to yourself far more than I would ever wish, and all I have to do is remind you of that. Like I said, I bear no ill will towards because you are gay, but it is sad that it appears that you have made the fact that you are gay turn you into an asshole.
Whether you like oral sex, sex with other races, sex with more than one person at the same time, homosexual sex, bisexual sex, whether your into fat chicks, skinny chicks, dark chicks, whether they are tall, short, big breast, no breast, big butt, no butt, black hair, brunette, blond, a flaming red head, you like'em old, young, soft or muscular, from the back, from the front, in a shower, in the woods, in the rain, on the beach, no matter how you like it, in the end
WE ALL CHOOSE WHO WE WE SLEEP WITH AND HOW. HOMOSEXUALITY IS A CHOICE.
WE ALL CHOOSE WHO WE WE SLEEP WITH AND HOW. HOMOSEXUALITY IS A CHOICE.
I make some of the best threads don't I?
This was rather educational. It seems that no one really knows why people are gay or straight. I don't think it's a choice however based on the general opinion of gays and the why-would-you-want-to-be-gay agrueement.
This was rather educational. It seems that no one really knows why people are gay or straight.
I don't think it's a choice however based on the general opinion of gays and the why-would-you-want-to-be-gay agrueement.It just doesn't suit them. Some people just don't like fish, others do.
You know, one day I actually thought how weird it is that girls bodies are turn-ons. Like what the hell is so exciting about a tity. Idk, but I like it.
You know, one day I actually thought how weird it is that girls bodies are turn-ons. Like what the hell is so exciting about a tity. Idk, but I like it.
you're talking about the sex part. so does that mean a straight couple who is into anal is homosexual? I don't think who we are attracted to is a choice. of course who you sleep with is a choice, but it's a direct result of who you are attracted too.
gotta agree with this. I can and have had sex with women. I was able to get it up, but didn't particularly like or dislike the actual act.
at the same time, if I walked pass a woman generally considered to be beautiful (let's say, Jessica Alba), I probably wouldn't even notice her.
Moonfraud your little insults don't mean jack. I am not a homosexual, never will be a homosexual. Point is urges and desires don't add to it being right. And Moonpie no doubt in a homosexual relationship you would definately be the "woman"
Homosexuality is not a choice classy, according to what you're saying. What you're saying (whether you realize it or not) is that committing homosexual acts is a choice.
You have scrupulously avoided answering the following questions in this (and other) threads:
1. Did you choose to be attracted to females as opposed to males?
2. Are you able to choose to be sexually aroused by and also emotionally drawn to males as opposed to females? IF you did choose this, would you then actually be sexually attracted to males?
3. Are you able to choose to no longer be attracted to females? If you did this, would you then no longer become sexually aroused at images of e.g., sexually appealing women? Would you be completely indifferent to the physical charms of attractive females?
You've also scrupulously avoided clearly distinguishing between sexual orientation, and sexual behaviors, in your comments.
Finally, you're now apparently saying you think sexual orientation is the result of an "unconscious" (as opposed to conscious) decision. However you fail to explain what you mean by an "unconscious" decision. I would also like to know if it is possible to later become aware of one's unconscious decisons, and then consciously choose to reverse said unconscious decisions: i.e., if you "unconsciously" chose to be attracted to little girls when you were a kid, are you now - as an adult - able to consciously decide to be attracted to other adult males? (of course, you won't answer these questions either).
All of the above questions highlight how ludicrous your position is. That is, no doubt, why you refuse to answer such questions (in this thread, and other threads). I conclude you are disingenuous, a coward, etc.
You are a ignorant, a dolt, stupid, imo.
OF course.
Homosexuality is more than who we have sex with. It is also who we are attracted to. Who we are attracted to is not consciously chosen, it is not a choice.
See, you are doing the same thing that idiot Vic did (and it is a very dishonest thing to do) - you are deliberately blurring the line between SEXUAL ORIENTATION (who we are attracted to) and SEXUAL BEHAVIOR (the sexual activities we engage in). This allows you to say "sexuality is a choice" and achieve your little rhetorical victory. In fact, your statement that homosexuality is a choice is pretty meaningless. Or rather, it is delibarately vague. What exactly do you mean by "homosexuality is a choice"? Do you mean, homosexual individuals chose to be ATTRACTED to other people of the same sex? Or do you mean, homosexual individuals chose to HAVE SEX with other individuals of the same sex? If you mean the latter, then your insight is hardly stunning, I think we all understand that we choose the sexual behaviors we engage in. If your saying the latter, then you are saying sexual orientation is a conscious choice. What evidence do you have for this?
And by the way, there is nothing intrinsically wrong, or morally bad, about homosexual sex. In fact, homosexual sex is perfectly morally desirable, a perfectly natural use of our bodies as God intended.
Originally posted by: classy
Moonfraud your little insults don't mean jack. I am not a homosexual, never will be a homosexual. Point is urges and desires don't add to it being right. And Moonpie no doubt in a homosexual relationship you would definately be the "woman"
Quite the contrary, Classy, my little insult seems to have poked you right in the ass, which of course, in your case could have been anywhere. Many of us are already fully aware that you butt your way into these 'homosexual threads' to drop a couple of homophobic slurs and then go on typically to boast of your prowess with women. You have exposed yourself, many times, as one of those sad sad black people who has internalized his racial inferiority feelings and exported them in the form of the same kind of bigotry toward others. We see this all over the world. One group, on which the terrible lie of inferiority, racial or any other kind, had been placed then turns around and creates another group beneath them on which they sh!t in turn. You feel worthless and need somebody you can dump that on. You have bought into the lie that you are inferior in exactly the same way as you think gays are. And you will always hate yourself as long as you hate others. But sadly this truth is so painful to you that you will not see. You are a white supremacist hiding behind your color.
I find the conflict here between Vic and aidanjm to be most interesting in an incomprehensible sort of way and in some ways I find it sad. I see each person defending something good and responding to a perceived attack on that good in a bad way. This happens because each becomes convinced that there is an attack on the idea as well as the person. You aidanjm want to preserve the important notion that being gay is a choice in part, perhaps, because it thereby removes homosexuality form the real of phony Christian sin and Vic doesn't want the notion of 'predestination' for the sake of brevity, to lead to victimization and powerlessness:
Vic "What I do think is wrong is thinking that individuals are pawns in their lives, powerless to their genes, controlled by destiny and the stars, victims of cruel fate. Basically, aidanjm wants my pity and sympathy, and he will never have that. He does have my acceptance, but that only for being gay, and not for being such an asshole."
Personally, I think one can build bridges when one understands that, generally speaking, the conscious intention of the 'other' is good. I think there is room aplenty for both truths and that is what I would seek. There are plenty of examples, and therefore deep truth in the notion that people who think the stars control them often surrender to conditions they could easily change and we know how the Fundamentalist Christians twist choice into choosing sin. Both of these ideas are good and one does not negate the other.
Vic "What I do think is wrong is thinking that individuals are pawns in their lives, powerless to their genes, controlled by destiny and the stars, victims of cruel fate. Basically, aidanjm wants my pity and sympathy, and he will never have that. He does have my acceptance, but that only for being gay, and not for being such an asshole."
Personally, I think one can build bridges when one understands that, generally speaking, the conscious intention of the 'other' is good. I think there is room aplenty for both truths and that is what I would seek. There are plenty of examples, and therefore deep truth in the notion that people who think the stars control them often surrender to conditions they could easily change and we know how the Fundamentalist Christians twist choice into choosing sin. Both of these ideas are good and one does not negate the other.
Originally posted by: Moonbeam
Originally posted by: classy
Moonfraud your little insults don't mean jack. I am not a homosexual, never will be a homosexual. Point is urges and desires don't add to it being right. And Moonpie no doubt in a homosexual relationship you would definately be the "woman"
Quite the contrary, Classy, my little insult seems to have poked you right in the ass, which of course, in your case could have been anywhere. Many of us are already fully aware that you butt your way into these 'homosexual threads' to drop a couple of homophobic slurs and then go on typically to boast of your prowess with women. You have exposed yourself, many times, as one of those sad sad black people who has internalized his racial inferiority feelings and exported them in the form of the same kind of bigotry toward others. We see this all over the world. One group, on which the terrible lie of inferiority, racial or any other kind, had been placed then turns around and creates another group beneath them on which they sh!t in turn. You feel worthless and need somebody you can dump that on. You have bought into the lie that you are inferior in exactly the same way as you think gays are. And you will always hate yourself as long as you hate others. But sadly this truth is so painful to you that you will not see. You are a white supremacist hiding behind your color.
OH I see. Because I don't agree with homosexuality, I am a gay basher. OH I see, because I am an outspoken black guy and don't bow down to the white superior attitude of some of the outright trash people on this board I am a racist. No Moonfraud, I am a proud individual who either posting on a forum board or in person will not kiss your stinking @ss or go along with everyone else because they believe its right. Personally as I have told you before, you are straight trash anyway. You always go with the flow and will quickly label somebody because they don't listen to your pathetic arguements. As far as homosexuality, until someone can prove otherwise it is a choice. Despite all of the scientific tests, the desire to be homosexual still comes down to the same way on who you choose to love or sleep with, its a choice. Now I am sorry if a lowlife like you can't accept that. I don't in any way support the mistreatment of a person who is gay. Do I support gay marriage, no I don't. And yes my belief is grounded in the the bible. And no I could care less whether you agree with me or not. Your lousy opinions based on your godless nature is your business. But don't get all bent out of shape labeling people bigots, but on the other hand you put down a person because they believe in God. You maggot
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