Historically least prepared for college high school class in history...

[pete6032]

The younger generation has it easier in so many ways.

You guys I found the gatekeeper.

 

[Lanyap]

Just wait until Florida starts spitting out high school graduates that took the new CLT.

Florida system accepts controversial Classic Learning Test

The State University System of Florida’s Board of Governors voted to accept the SAT alternative in state Republicans’ latest rebuke of academic norms.

www.insidehighered.com

 

[Charmonium]

I went to college in the mid 70's (yes, I'm old, get a job) and even then we had freshmen that needed remedial tutoring.

Look at this way, if you ever wanted to be a teacher, destiny is calling your name.

edit: that's "destiny" with a small "d" - just wanted to be clear about that.

 

[Greenman]

I think that's the opposite of the reality. The opportunities for attaining a decent standard of living without spending half your life in education have increasingly disappeared.

The only thing I envy the young about (apart from the fact that by definition they are further away from being dead of old age) is how accessible entertainment media is now. That seems to be an ongoing process, judging from the way my parents would emphasize how boring the 1950s were, with NOTHING fun to do. Entertainment and distraction gets ever-more available while the basics, like housing or health care, get ever more scarce.

The opportunity's haven't disappeared, they're ignored. Most people want to make a living sitting in a comfortable chair in an air conditioned room.

 

[[DHT]Osiris]

The opportunity's haven't disappeared, they're ignored. Most people want to make a living sitting in a comfortable chair in an air conditioned room.

Not entirely untrue, I'll caveat by saying you'll be beating the shit out of your body in many cases, but there's a lot of money to be made in trades, as there always is.

 

[pmv]

Not entirely untrue, I'll caveat by saying you'll be beating the shit out of your body in many cases, but there's a lot of money to be made in trades, as there always is.

It doesn't look that way to me. What we did here was just import lots of skilled tradespeople from Eastern Europe (all beneficiaries of the communist-created education system that, apparently, actually taught such skills). From what I've heard from multiple local tradespeople, that seemed to cause the bottom to drop out of the market. That was presumably a factor in the Brexit vote.

Of course, our education system has never been very good at teaching those skills, and employers don't want to train anyone either (one reason why some of them were very anti-Brexit, because it threatened to cut off that supply of already-trained labour.)

 

[pmv]

The opportunity's haven't disappeared, they're ignored. Most people want to make a living sitting in a comfortable chair in an air conditioned room.

I mean, I don't know, there's _some_ truth in that - even criminals now seem to prefer non-manual-labour, opting for internet fraud and drug-dealing over mugging and burglary and bank-robberies. But prior to the A8 there was a brief fashion for white-collar workers retraining as plumbers and such-like, because the money was good...but it seems that all collapsed with the sudden availability of skilled people from Eastern Europe.

 

[Greenman]

Not entirely untrue, I'll caveat by saying you'll be beating the shit out of your body in many cases, but there's a lot of money to be made in trades, as there always is.

I know, I spent 47 years in the trades. 37 of them as a general contractor.

 

[[DHT]Osiris]

I know, I spent 47 years in the trades. 37 of them as a general contractor.

Yup, and I find that out every time I need something done that I'm not comfortable with. It's really expensive haha.

It doesn't look that way to me. What we did here was just import lots of skilled tradespeople from Eastern Europe (all beneficiaries of the communist-created education system that, apparently, actually taught such skills). From what I've heard from multiple local tradespeople, that seemed to cause the bottom to drop out of the market. That was presumably a factor in the Brexit vote.

Of course, our education system has never been very good at teaching those skills, and employers don't want to train anyone either (one reason why some of them were very anti-Brexit, because it threatened to cut off that supply of already-trained labour.)

Ahh, different situation in the US. You can make absolute bank if you're smart (or at least not dumb) and sufficiently motivated. Labor costs are sky high, and most people who live here suck at anything to do with trades (probably on account of being told it was what idiots/poors do by our boomer parents growing up).

 

[Greenman]

I mean, I don't know, there's _some_ truth in that - even criminals now seem to prefer non-manual-labour, opting for internet fraud and drug-dealing over mugging and burglary and bank-robberies. But prior to the A8 there was a brief fashion for white-collar workers retraining as plumbers and such-like, because the money was good...but it seems that all collapsed with the sudden availability of skilled people from Eastern Europe.

Might be true in the EU, it sure as hell isn't the case in the U.S. I always had trouble finding skilled help. Or even people that wanted to learn more than the minimum required to do their job. I was offering paid training to broaden their skillset and open up opportunity's and most weren't the least bit interested.

 

[dank69]

Might be true in the EU, it sure as hell isn't the case in the U.S. I always had trouble finding skilled help. Or even people that wanted to learn more than the minimum required to do their job. I was offering paid training to broaden their skillset and open up opportunity's and most weren't the least bit interested.

Offering how much per hour to destroy their bodies for you?

 

[Brainonska511]

What we actually need out of education has fundamentally changed. For example, you don't need to learn trigonometry. Anyone that needs trigonometry for a job or project can learn exactly what they need in 15 seconds of Googling and then forget it again 15 minutes after using it until the next time it is needed and Googled.

If someone decides to be a writer they can learn about language anytime when they need it as they need it.

Basic reading, basic math, basic scientific principles, problem solving, logic and reasoning, and basic technical skills are most of what is needed to survive and thrive. Anyone with those fundamentals can learn to specialize in anything they want to from there.


I have the privilege of living in CT and this is not the case in my town. I have a 6th grader and 4th grader and their math curriculum from the little I have seen is geared toward problem solving. They teach multiple ways to reach the same answer. My town also had the resources to get through the pandemic relatively unscathed. My kids didn't miss a beat. My wife and I both work from home, so of course that helped.

Why would you say trig is not needed because people can google it, and then follow it up with people should learn basic reading/math/etc? Part of learning these basics is to provide a foundation for those basic skills you so highly value. It's about creating connections in children's brains that enable those problem solving skills.

 

[Xcobra]

Why would you say trig is not needed because people can google it, and then follow it up with people should learn basic reading/math/etc? Part of learning these basics is to provide a foundation for those basic skills you so highly value. It's about creating connections in children's brains that enable those problem solving skills.

Thank you. I was going to reply with something similar. Such subjects set the foundation for logical and critical thinking!

 

[dank69]

Why would you say trig is not needed because people can google it, and then follow it up with people should learn basic reading/math/etc? Part of learning these basics is to provide a foundation for those basic skills you so highly value. It's about creating connections in children's brains that enable those problem solving skills.

I don't consider trig to be basic. I consider geometry to be basic. Sine, cosine, etc. won't ever be used by a majority of people. ACT goes way beyond trig as well. How to spot misinformation or bad logic is infinitely more valuable to the average person. How many ACT questions devoted to that? None?

 

[Brainonska511]

I don't consider trig to be basic. I consider geometry to be basic. Sine, cosine, etc. won't ever be used by a majority of people. ACT goes way beyond trig as well. How to spot misinformation or bad logic is infinitely more valuable to the average person. How many ACT questions devoted to that? None?

Children have ~13 years of public schooling, if you go K-12. There is plenty of time to teach a multitude of subjects, and basics and more advanced things provide them foundations to build off of. Building up critical thinking skills comes in many forms, from recognizing when to do X when presented with Y problem in math, to writing essays that have to provide an argument, to analyzing literature and historical events, etc...

And if you decide these subjects are no longer needed, you're going to put people at an inherent disadvantage when they want to go into more advanced subjects come college.

 

[vi edit]

I've tried to write up something and just deleted because I don't even know where to go with it.

Tablets and Legos are two I'll just pick on.

You know how hard it is to find just a basic lego set of standard bricks now? It's almost impossible and you get shit on by your kids because it's just "basic". Everything is a pre-designed, highly specialized model at this point. It's not really free play. It's a step by step build. And you hear the screams of rage from downstairs when that one block doesn't fit right or they can't figure it out.

It's not a build whatever you feel like any more. All of these pieces have a unique number and place on that model to fit. And if you tear it apart or a younger kid comes in and breaks it. Oh good luck getting it back together again.

That freedom of just building without needing a step by step guide is really missing. When things don't go as planned they panic and don't know what to. And the anxiety of it coming apart is real.

When you move over to technology, we've turned so many things into appliances at this point that the only real solution is to reboot or replace. Fixing things on your own is getting harder and harder. From cars to computers to houses. And I do think that's killing the concept of tinkering.

My wife is a residency director for young healthcare students and is seeing this in her incoming students as well. The ability to point a kid at a problem and have them come back with a detailed solution is getting harder. They need a step by step accounting of exactly what you want done and need validation at every point in it.

I blame legos.

It's just a lot of things that I don't blame kids for. Technology and social media has really programmed us for instant gratification, unlimited access to any digital trinket or dopamine hit you want. They didn't opt into the addiction. Most companies don't want anything to do with the repair industry unless it's ultra profitable. So we're in a replace it society. Even cars are moving to that model with EV's.

I'm not saying that not knowing how to change your own brakes or oil is the end of the world. What I am saying is that if I hadn't tinkered around with boot disks in my teens trying to get a 486DX2 packard bell up and running on games it had no right to run then maybe I wouldn't have had access to the career I did. Maybe spending time in a garage or drive with Dad fixing something instead of scrolling through Tik tok locked in a bedroom is a better long term outcome?

I don't think we're raising the next real batch of engineers or scientists right now even with the emphasis on STEM. It's all of the things outside of the classroom we've killed.

 

[pmv]

Why would you say trig is not needed because people can google it, and then follow it up with people should learn basic reading/math/etc? Part of learning these basics is to provide a foundation for those basic skills you so highly value. It's about creating connections in children's brains that enable those problem solving skills.

Yeah, I don't know about this sort of talk. It's very common here for elite privately-educated types, who only studied 'the classics' and like to show off that they know a bit of Latin, to dismiss maths and insist it's irrelevant and nobody really needs calculus or trig. But the people who say that sort of thing are exactly the people who have run this country into the ground because of their lack of knowledge of science and their difficulty with thinking logically (usually they seem to study 'Politics, Philosophy and Economics' at degree level - which seems like the upper-class person's version of 'general studies').

But personally I just liked learning maths for its own sake. It's a tool, and learning to use a tool is empowering. And learning to use your brain to think in such ways has, I reckon, a more general benefit.

And you _do_ end up using "sines and cosines" and so-on, for all sorts of things, including 'practical' things, like plumbing.

But I really have no idea which specific topics children 'should' learn (Personally, I was always a bit rubbish at non-English languages, and that's also useful tool, just one I had no aptitude for). It's beyond me to figure it out. All I would vaguely say is that the important thing is to learn how to learn, and to gain some motivation to learn _something_, whatever it is.

Seems to me there are two rival forms of snobbery that constantly feud over this sort of thing - the 'classics' snobs, typified by the likes of Boris Johnson, who think that anyone who can't read Latin is an oik, and the 'finance bro' types, typified by the likes of Sunak, who fetishise maths and "STEM". It's hard to say which group has made a bigger mess when in charge.

 

[dank69]

Yeah, I don't know about this sort of talk. It's very common here for elite privately-educated types, who only studied 'the classics' and like to show off that they know a bit of Latin, to dismiss maths and insist it's irrelevant and nobody really needs calculus or trig. But the people who say that sort of thing are exactly the people who have run this country into the ground because of their lack of knowledge of science and their difficulty with thinking logically (usually they seem to study 'Politics, Philosophy and Economics' at degree level - which seems like the upper-class person's version of 'general studies').

But personally I just liked learning maths for its own sake. It's a tool, and learning to use a tool is empowering. And learning to use your brain to think in such ways has, I reckon, a more general benefit.

And you _do_ end up using "sines and cosines" and so-on, for all sorts of things, including 'practical' things, like plumbing.

But I really have no idea which specific topics children 'should' learn (Personally, I was always a bit rubbish at non-English languages, and that's also useful tool, just one I had no aptitude for). It's beyond me to figure it out. All I would vaguely say is that the important thing is to learn how to learn, and to gain some motivation to learn _something_, whatever it is.

Seems to me there are two rival forms of snobbery that constantly feud over this sort of thing - the 'classics' snobs, typified by the likes of Boris Johnson, who think that anyone who can't read Latin is an oik, and the 'finance bro' types, typified by the likes of Sunak, who fetishise maths and "STEM". It's hard to say which group has made a bigger mess when in charge.

Guys, I'm not saying people shouldn't learn advanced math. I'm talking about re-prioritizing what constitutes a quality K-12 education. Kids can still take AP classes that specialize in STEM, art, or whatever they like.

 

[[DHT]Osiris]

You know how hard it is to find just a basic lego set of standard bricks now? It's almost impossible and you get shit on by your kids because it's just "basic". Everything is a pre-designed, highly specialized model at this point. It's not really free play. It's a step by step build. And you hear the screams of rage from downstairs when that one block doesn't fit right or they can't figure it out.

I mean, that's just economy. Why would Lego sell a 'mixed bag' when you can get one off ebay for less? There's sufficient used market for non-sets to drown out any need, ever.

 

[dank69]

I mean, that's just economy. Why would Lego sell a 'mixed bag' when you can get one off ebay for less? There's sufficient used market for non-sets to drown out any need, ever.

I mean, Lego does have basic sets it's just there's no demand for them. He even said his kids don't want them.

I just helped my kids with their Lego until they were old enough to do themselves without frustration. It's the whole reason I had kids in the first place, to have an excuse to play with Lego again.

 

[Charmonium]

I just helped my kids with their Lego until they were old enough to do themselves without frustration. It's the whole reason I had kids in the first place, to have an excuse to play with Lego again.

Ah, the true love of a parent. Heeheehee

 

[eikelbijter]

Just wait until VR becomes the only reality people can stand anymore. As VR gets better and reality gets worse, it's inevitable.

That's basically the plot of the movie Surrogates!

 

[SteveGrabowski]

I didn't think the schools should have been closed for COVID, and am not surprised by this result. My sister is a public school teacher and she says the distance learning was a joke. The kids did not pay attention when at home and would often wonder off. I didn't think it was a great idea to set millions of children back in their education to save what I believe would have been a small number of people.

Teachers' lives were already shitty enough. Would have really sucked seeing them get hero'ed on top of that.

 

[SteveGrabowski]

The only thing I envy the young about (apart from the fact that by definition they are further away from being dead of old age) is how accessible entertainment media is now.

I know. Back in my day when I wanted to see some tits on TV I'd have to tune it to Rendezvous Theater and hope the scrambling cleared up for a couple of seconds at a time to see some action.

 

[darkswordsman17]

I've tried to write up something and just deleted because I don't even know where to go with it.

Tablets and Legos are two I'll just pick on.

You know how hard it is to find just a basic lego set of standard bricks now? It's almost impossible and you get shit on by your kids because it's just "basic". Everything is a pre-designed, highly specialized model at this point. It's not really free play. It's a step by step build. And you hear the screams of rage from downstairs when that one block doesn't fit right or they can't figure it out.

It's not a build whatever you feel like any more. All of these pieces have a unique number and place on that model to fit. And if you tear it apart or a younger kid comes in and breaks it. Oh good luck getting it back together again.

That freedom of just building without needing a step by step guide is really missing. When things don't go as planned they panic and don't know what to. And the anxiety of it coming apart is real.

When you move over to technology, we've turned so many things into appliances at this point that the only real solution is to reboot or replace. Fixing things on your own is getting harder and harder. From cars to computers to houses. And I do think that's killing the concept of tinkering.

My wife is a residency director for young healthcare students and is seeing this in her incoming students as well. The ability to point a kid at a problem and have them come back with a detailed solution is getting harder. They need a step by step accounting of exactly what you want done and need validation at every point in it.

I blame legos.

It's just a lot of things that I don't blame kids for. Technology and social media has really programmed us for instant gratification, unlimited access to any digital trinket or dopamine hit you want. They didn't opt into the addiction. Most companies don't want anything to do with the repair industry unless it's ultra profitable. So we're in a replace it society. Even cars are moving to that model with EV's.

I'm not saying that not knowing how to change your own brakes or oil is the end of the world. What I am saying is that if I hadn't tinkered around with boot disks in my teens trying to get a 486DX2 packard bell up and running on games it had no right to run then maybe I wouldn't have had access to the career I did. Maybe spending time in a garage or drive with Dad fixing something instead of scrolling through Tik tok locked in a bedroom is a better long term outcome?

I don't think we're raising the next real batch of engineers or scientists right now even with the emphasis on STEM. It's all of the things outside of the classroom we've killed.

Well that's very clear. Wait, I thought you deleted it? You mean that is your more coherent version? WTF?

This is fucking nonsense. You can buy tubs of basic Legos without much hassle, and you can order them bulk direct from Lego. You can also find people selling tubs of Legos on used markets for cheap (depends on sellers though). There's also more tools to take the basic pieces and make all sorts of designs, there's multiple entire websites (Brickseek for finding specific pieces) and I don't even remember all the ones dedicated to making other things from the pieces contained in specialized kits that you apparently are too unimaginative (whilst acting like its the kids that are; I'm noticing a trend there...) to make something else. I think Lego itself even has a site where you can submit your own custom designs that they'll consider turning into kits and there's a lot of kids on there submitting their own stuff.

Oh, here's a Wal-Mart link to a tub of basic Legos since apparently you struggle with finding these:

LEGO Classic Medium Creative Brick Box , Toy Set with Train, Car, Tiger, Birthday Gift for Kids 4+, 10696 - Walmart.com

Buy LEGO Classic Medium Creative Brick Box , Toy Set with Train, Car, Tiger, Birthday Gift for Kids 4+, 10696 at Walmart.com

www.walmart.com

What you're mistaking for modern manufacturing enabling much greater ability to make custom pieces for cheap plastic toy kits as some indictment of kids creativity and ability to think, well unfortunately that's a common refrain from old people that basically are stuck in the past but projecting all their personal shortcomings onto the kids.

Actually, wait, you seem upset that your kids want to play with the Legos and so destroy whatever you made? Sweet jeebus, you're an adult acting like a goddamn child.

Yeah, you really didn't blame kids for that at all... For fuck's sake do you listen to yourself? Get out of your own ignorant bubble. There's so much cool stuff going on and a lot of it is being driven by this younger gen that you seem to think are being raised to be thoughtless automatons. There's tons of tinkering going on, that you're clueless about it is your problem not the problem of those tinkering. Maybe you should spend less time on social media and thinking the crap that most influencers are doing is what everyone is doing when it isn't.

Just because you're apparently ignorant of things doesn't let you just project it all over and declare everyone else ignorant. The people on this forum show this behavior so often its asinine. Some of you are so damn simply stupid (as in you don't even know the basic facts that you're using to form your arguments) its not even funny and you then use that to make sweeping stupid generalized arguments that don't hold up to the most basic levels of scrutiny.

I actually do agree with you on one point though. Modern systems are built to turn people into addicts. Be it social media, video games, food, or drugs. But that's also working on older people. I know as many if not more older people addicted to social media as kids.

As for the tinkering, the biggest issue there has nothing to do with your argument and is in fact corporations doing things to prevent people from doing that (often via legal threat more than anything). Which you did touch on some, but you basically acted like its just corporations trying to make everything throw away junk (which is only partly true). I guarantee there will be plenty of tinkerers in electric vehicles. There's already a bunch of that. For instance there's people making hybrids by taking the engines out of wrecked motorcycles and combining them with electric vehicles (one guy stuffed a Haybusa engine in the back of a Nissan Leaf). And people will start manually winding their own compact electric motors to hot rod EVs. And build their own supercapacitors, etc. Hell just recently there was a video that got recommended on like all of my YouTube accounts (which I have multiple specifically because of the algorithm shit), of like teens or young 20 something kids taking a bank of 100 car batteries and just fucking around. And there's entire channels dedicated to people trialing all sorts of crazy fan/propellor, and other designs. People building their own engines. There's more tinkering going on now than ever before.