Historically least prepared for college high school class in history...

[darkswordsman17]

As for the topic of this thread, its interesting (and glad they took the time to point out that the tests have been adjusted overtime to compensate for actual rise in knowledge and "intelligence", aka the Flynn Effect) and troubling, but not surprising given what's been going on.

I have a strong hunch this has more to do with Betsy DeVos fucking up the education system for several years, coupled with COVID having a major impact on things. Add in the shit that Republicans in Texas and Florida have been doing (special mention goes to the shit attempted in Kansas by Republicans as well), and the growing wealth inequality.

Further being ignored is that there's more and more parents homeschooling their kids and let's just say this is not having a positive effect on schooling, because parents believing conspiracy theories is pushing them that way. Although that might actually be hidden as I'm not sure how many of them are showing up in these results.

Charter schools also probably are playing a big role in this. Its choking public school districts that then are unable to expand, leading to overcrowded schools and other, which further pushes parents to put their kids into charter schools or homeschooling. That's happening a lot down here (Arizona).

Unfortunately there's little momentum to deal with the stuff fucking up schools, if anything there's momentum going the other direction as right wing agitprop stokes fear and lies. That's if they aren't actively just paying people to show up to schools that they or their kids don't even go to. We had one crazy asshole man who homeschools his kids show up to a public school to threaten the principal. And they've tried astroturfing the "concerned parents" (how many times did they find right wing people that went to schools pretending to be concerned parent only to find out they were either paid or went there out of their own volition and they don't even live in that state or have kids that go to the schools they're pulling this shit at?).

 

[SteveGrabowski]

Why would you say trig is not needed because people can google it, and then follow it up with people should learn basic reading/math/etc? Part of learning these basics is to provide a foundation for those basic skills you so highly value. It's about creating connections in children's brains that enable those problem solving skills.

I googled what a sine was and now 15 minutes later I fully understand the Fourier transform.

 

[repoman0]

I don't consider trig to be basic. I consider geometry to be basic. Sine, cosine, etc. won't ever be used by a majority of people. ACT goes way beyond trig as well. How to spot misinformation or bad logic is infinitely more valuable to the average person. How many ACT questions devoted to that? None?

I learned both trig and how to think logically in my public middle and high schools and am thankful for both. I use both skills constantly — one at work and one to not be an average misinformed moron. We can and should teach both, they are not mutually exclusive. Seven hours a day for over a decade is a lot of learning.

 

[dank69]

I googled what a sine was and now 15 minutes later I fully understand the Fourier transform.

It seems like you're joking but I've gone down the math rabbit hole on occasion when bored at work and learned like the equivalent of a year or two of college math in an afternoon. Of course I just forget it again in a few months because I don't use any of it, it's just interesting sometimes.

 

[dank69]

I learned both trig and how to think logically in my public middle and high schools and am thankful for both. I use both skills constantly — one at work and one to not be an average misinformed moron. We can and should teach both, they are not mutually exclusive. Seven hours a day for over a decade is a lot of learning.

Sure we can teach both and to some extent do teach both, but tha ACT doesn't capture the general aptitude for both.

 

[Paratus]

It seems like you're joking but I've gone down the math rabbit hole on occasion when bored at work and learned like the equivalent of a year or two of college math in an afternoon. Of course I just forget it again in a few months because I don't use any of it, it's just interesting sometimes.

I’m not saying you didn’t learn it but anything from trig through differential equations I don’t think you learned a full semester.

 

[akugami]

Physical writing has been de-emphasized. My kids have terrible handwriting.

I understood the need for remote learning, but it is not the same as in-class learning. The social interaction, the better ability for teachers to monitor the kids, it's just not the same.

COVID lockdowns did not help, but the worst part is attack from conservatives on our school system. Underfunding schools, using religion to dictate what can and cannot be taught in public schools, all of that has contributed to the decline of the American education system.

It does not mean it is impossible to get a good education system, but it does mean the overwhelming majority of the United States has a tougher fight to obtain one.

I'm blessed to have been able to afford to move to a better school district. I went to a high school freshman back to school night for my eldest child. My favorite class was probably one that dealt with current events, and the teacher basically outlined his goals, which was to get kids to think logically when they take in news about current events. And how not to label everything in black and white terms. Getting kids to think, how refreshing!

Also, shout out to Bucks County, PA (just north of Philadelphia) for fighting against the Nazi mom organization aka Moms For Liberty which is actively fighting to ban books and keep our kids stupid.

@vi edit Regarding Lego sets. If you want a basic Lego set, they're still around, though not as visibly advertised. Just ask a store associate. Your best bet is to order from Walmart or Amazon, or a Lego store if you have one nearby.

 

[SteveGrabowski]

It seems like you're joking but I've gone down the math rabbit hole on occasion when bored at work and learned like the equivalent of a year or two of college math in an afternoon. Of course I just forget it again in a few months because I don't use any of it, it's just interesting sometimes.

LOL no you don't learn math reading about it; you learn math doing it. Pretty much like any other skill.

 

[SteveGrabowski]

Physical writing has been de-emphasized. My kids have terrible handwriting.

Do you find much value in handwriting? I don't really. Even doing math I usually prefer opening up Mathematica and using that like my scratch pad and then once I have the result and want it to be readable I'll type it up via LaTeX and build a pdf.

 

[akugami]

@SteveGrabowski

With technology so prevalent, no. Handwriting is a lost art at this point. Hell, cursive may as well be calligraphy at this point.

I do wish my kids would write down their math problems though. They make mistakes because they think they can do all the stuff in their heads. Sometimes it's better to just write out the problems.

At work, when I'm checking numbers are correct in a report, I usually pull raw numbers from the client's database and use Excel to check that it is correct. Nothing complicated, all basic calculations, but a lot of numbers.

 

[Brainonska511]

@SteveGrabowski

With technology so prevalent, no. Handwriting is a lost art at this point. Hell, cursive may as well be calligraphy at this point.

I do wish my kids would write down their math problems though. They make mistakes because they think they can do all the stuff in their heads. Sometimes it's better to just write out the problems.

At work, when I'm checking numbers are correct in a report, I usually pull raw numbers from the client's database and use Excel to check that it is correct. Nothing complicated, all basic calculations, but a lot of numbers.

Handwriting has other benefits, like learning and improving on fine motor control, and exercising those pathways in the brain.

 

[SteveGrabowski]

I do wish my kids would write down their math problems though. They make mistakes because they think they can do all the stuff in their heads. Sometimes it's better to just write out the problems.

Yeah you can't skip steps in math. Every time I would tutor math in college I would show the other person to do one small step at a time and I'd make the person I was tutoring write out every step of the calculation. I have a math degree and I don't do math in my head because it's so prone to error. Only time I do math in my head is say when I'm at the grocery store and thinking say this box of cereal is price X and weight Y while this other bigger box is price Z and weight W, so what is X/Y and what is Z/W? So I can pick the box with a better price per ounce.

Unless the problem is over the top easy where you can just solve it by inspection, eg find x when 4x^2 + 2 = 6 or something.

Though I guess there are good tricks to doing math in your head. Like if I want to multiply X by 8 I'll multiply X by 10 instead and then subtract 2X since 8X = 10X - 2X.

 

[dank69]

Yeah you can't skip steps in math. Every time I would tutor math in college I would show the other person to do one small step at a time and I'd make the person I was tutoring write out every step of the calculation. I have a math degree and I don't do math in my head because it's so prone to error. Only time I do math in my head is say when I'm at the grocery store and thinking say this box of cereal is price X and weight Y while this other bigger box is price Z and weight W, so what is X/Y and what is Z/W? So I can pick the box with a better price per ounce.

Unless the problem is over the top easy where you can just solve it by inspection, eg find x when 4x^2 + 2 = 6 or something.

Though I guess there are good tricks to doing math in your head. Like if I want to multiply X by 8 I'll multiply X by 10 instead and then subtract 2X since 8X = 10X - 2X.

In CT grocers are required to list unit price for easy comparisons.

 

[Moonbeam]

I am either essentially stupid or learning impaired. I can't visualize words but I hear them so I can't spell. I seem to have poor fine muscle control. My handwriting looks like chicken scratch. I didn't start reading till the fourth grade and at that point still could not do simple math. I could not tell the difference between b and d or p and q early on in my first years in school. I flunked the second grade. My Mother went to the 8th grade, didn't know math, here writing maybe worse than mine. But as an adult she knew lots and lots of stuff and read voraciously, interested in everything under the sun. But science and machines I just got naturally.

I was also full of opinions about things I could did not have a means to express. I could not write down on paper what I wanted to say. I didn't know how to speak to paper.

Anyway by the sixth grade things began to change. Returning from Hawaiian schools I began to get better grades as the schools out there had already prepared me for what was being taught in California. Good grades were like a tonic for feeling stupid and I began the process of making a student out of myself. That lasted through my senior year when my new capacity to think and write critically had lead me to asking terrible questions about the meaning of life. And that was the end of that. I have no idea where I would have wound up but I discovered Zen and through Zen an strange psychological revolution in my conscious state. All questions and misery about the meaning of life ended. Live is and there are no questions. There is no where to go so I never when anywhere. Ambition serves ego. Boys just wanna have fun. I got a job for life support and followed my interests. I owe all that I think, to junior and senior high school English, where the asked me to read books and argue complex philosophical questions. I used to wright 80 pages of scratch out and be up at night till two in the morning just to produce a few pages that would get all kinds of red marks. I learned to read and write what I wanted to say but I still can't spell. I made many spelling errors just writing this.

 

[Fenixgoon]

@SteveGrabowski

With technology so prevalent, no. Handwriting is a lost art at this point. Hell, cursive may as well be calligraphy at this point.

I do wish my kids would write down their math problems though. They make mistakes because they think they can do all the stuff in their heads. Sometimes it's better to just write out the problems.

At work, when I'm checking numbers are correct in a report, I usually pull raw numbers from the client's database and use Excel to check that it is correct. Nothing complicated, all basic calculations, but a lot of numbers.

Cursive basically IS calligraphy. It's far more difficult to read than print. And what use does it have other than looking fancy?
I grew up learning it, and my day to day writing is a hybrid of print and cursive (left handed no less, good luck reading it). But practically speaking? It doesn't serve me any value.

 

[quikah]

I mean, Lego does have basic sets it's just there's no demand for them. He even said his kids don't want them.

I just helped my kids with their Lego until they were old enough to do themselves without frustration. It's the whole reason I had kids in the first place, to have an excuse to play with Lego again.

The complaint that Lego sucks now because all the parts are specialized is also a load of crap. Lego sets have been a thing since at least the '70s. I had a full array of space Lego from the '80s with tons of specialized parts. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Lego_Space_sets.jpg

 

[Jaskalas]

Cursive basically IS calligraphy. It's far more difficult to read than print. And what use does it have other than looking fancy?

I am old enough to have been taught cursive in school.
But with daily use of computers being so overwhelming prevalent, I had not used cursive except to sign my name... in decades.
Now, I am unable to write it, and struggle greatly to read it. Even though I was completely proficient 25 years ago.

The purpose, as I recall, is that it is MUCH faster to write cursive, than it is to write letters in print. But maybe that's just me being out of touch with pen and paper in general.

 

[[DHT]Osiris]

Yeah you can't skip steps in math. Every time I would tutor math in college I would show the other person to do one small step at a time and I'd make the person I was tutoring write out every step of the calculation. I have a math degree and I don't do math in my head because it's so prone to error.

Unless the problem is over the top easy where you can just solve it by inspection,

I think you just discovered why some people just do math in their heads.

 

[pmv]

I am old enough to have been taught cursive in school.
But with daily use of computers being so overwhelming prevalent, I had not used cursive except to sign my name... in decades.
Now, I am unable to write it, and struggle greatly to read it. Even though I was completely proficient 25 years ago.

The purpose, as I recall, is that it is MUCH faster to write cursive, than it is to write letters in print. But maybe that's just me being out of touch with pen and paper in general.

I never learned it in the first place - somehow must have missed that lesson in school. Consequently I used to get severe muscle pains as my essays got longer-and-longer, all painfully eked out in 'print'. Not helped by being somewhat obsessive-compulsive, hence my history essays, for example, tended to expand to include "every single thing that ever happened in the period the essay covers, whether important to the topic or not". Used to spend entire weekends just physically _writing_ the things. Thank God for typewriters and computers.

(Another reason why I switched to maths rather than history and English, because it was at least _concise_ and didn't cause such severe muscle strain)

 

[akugami]

Cursive basically IS calligraphy. It's far more difficult to read than print. And what use does it have other than looking fancy?
I grew up learning it, and my day to day writing is a hybrid of print and cursive (left handed no less, good luck reading it). But practically speaking? It doesn't serve me any value.

Cursive was great for note taking back in the day, before the prevalence of technology.

Today, it's far faster to just type (if allowed, some keyboards are noisy and distracts the instructor) in the classroom. Barring that, you may as well just record the audio on any in class lectures.

For my children, they are issued Chromebooks. Much of their learning materials are in electronic form, even books or any handouts. They really don't do much writing nowadays.

 

[SteveGrabowski]

Cursive basically IS calligraphy. It's far more difficult to read than print. And what use does it have other than looking fancy?
I grew up learning it, and my day to day writing is a hybrid of print and cursive (left handed no less, good luck reading it). But practically speaking? It doesn't serve me any value.

I'm left handed too and god anything I had to write in school with pencil in cursive would look so horrible as I dragged my hand along the line. Be glad you were writing English at least. When I started learning Japanese it became immediately clear why my left handed grandmother from the northern Japan was forced to learn to write right handed in the the 30s and 40s: because Japanese kanji is pretty awkward to write left handed. You have to write kanji in a specific stroke order and specific directions or it's really obvious to native speakers you wrote it incorrectly, and it's crystal clear that stroke order is made for smooth writing for right handed people.

 

[akugami]

I'm left handed too and god anything I had to write in school with pencil in cursive would look so horrible as I dragged my hand along the line. Be glad you were writing English at least. When I started learning Japanese it became immediately clear why my left handed grandmother from the northern Japan was forced to learn to write right handed in the the 30s and 40s: because Japanese kanji is pretty awkward to write left handed. You have to write kanji in a specific stroke order and specific directions or it's really obvious to native speakers you wrote it incorrectly, and it's crystal clear that stroke order is made for smooth writing for right handed people.

My brother was left handed and can relate. We were sent to Chinese school as children. Sadly, growing up in the US, we were stupid and didn't see the value of being fully bilingual and able to read and write in more than one language. Thus, our Chinese is atrocious. The Japanese Kanji is based off written Chinese characters for those that don't follow. The missus is able to read and write in Chinese and has attempted teaching the kids, but they are just as shortsighted as their old man.

 

[Sunburn74]

I didn't think the schools should have been closed for COVID, and am not surprised by this result. My sister is a public school teacher and she says the distance learning was a joke. The kids did not pay attention when at home and would often wonder off. I didn't think it was a great idea to set millions of children back in their education to save what I believe would have been a small number of people.

Easy to say that if you're not one of those people at risk.

I think we also are missing the a major point raised by the article in the opening post. Scores dropped for the 6th year in a row. COVID was only around starting Feb 2020. So whilst COVID may not have helped, it appears other factors were at play even prior.

 

[Muse]

In a way I feel further ahead of the parents struggling with this because of the pandemic.

Many of the most successful people I've heard of were home schooled. Of course, that necessitated very motivated and relatively talented parents.

 

[woolfe9998]

Easy to say that if you're not one of those people at risk.

I think we also are missing the a major point raised by the article in the opening post. Scores dropped for the 6th year in a row. COVID was only around starting Feb 2020. So whilst COVID may not have helped, it appears other factors were at play even prior.

I'm sure other factors were at play, but on the point about COVID in particular, we can't succumb to the logic that saving even one life is never a tradeoff for anything else of value. If we did, the speed limit would be 10 mph on the freeway, if we were even allowed to drive. Whether we like the idea of it or not, we make tradeoffs with safety versus other things every day. And that calculus will consider both the value of the other thing, and the number of people likely to be harmed. In the case of education, I would point out that it's even more crucial now than ever, with poorly educated Americans making extremely bad choices at the ballot box which could even end democracy. Not only that, we are eliminating unskilled labor with AI and robotics, and replacing it with high tech jobs, meaning it's an even bigger disadvantage these days to be without a good education than it was when we were young.

Not all of that is on COVID, of course. It's a broader conversation. But we should think very carefully about school closures should the situation arise in the future.