Historically least prepared for college high school class in history...

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IronWing

No Lifer
Jul 20, 2001
72,821
33,843
136
anyone who has ever had to deal with hand written fields on forms for official use knows better than to use closed 4s.

rushed 4s end up looking like 9s. being off by 5 ends up badly.
9s are round, 4s are not. If people or machines can't tell the difference between curves and slashes, it ain't my problem.

I has a HS physics teacher who had flat tops on his Ss. Almost daily, students would ask where the 25 came from in his ballistic equations.
 

dank69

Lifer
Oct 6, 2009
37,343
32,955
136
9s are round, 4s are not. If people or machines can't tell the difference between curves and slashes, it ain't my problem.

I has a HS physics teacher who had flat tops on his Ss. Almost daily, students would ask where the 25 came from in his ballistic equations.
angles are time inefficient
 

hal2kilo

Lifer
Feb 24, 2009
26,029
12,266
136
My writing is similar, various characters get written differently based on whatever whims are going on in the handwriting bit of my brain. I started out lefty and was forced into using my right hand.
Yep. What's sad is sometimes I can't even read my own scribble. Especially when writing down passwords in a short moment. Once again, they finally saved my ass with the later updates to the Windows world. Imagine a password manager.
 
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Zorba

Lifer
Oct 22, 1999
15,613
11,255
136
I learned both trig and how to think logically in my public middle and high schools and am thankful for both. I use both skills constantly — one at work and one to not be an average misinformed moron. We can and should teach both, they are not mutually exclusive. Seven hours a day for over a decade is a lot of learning.
Learning advanced math also changes they way people think and approach problems. The idea that we don't need to learn basics because everything is on Google is incredibly short sighted.
 

Zorba

Lifer
Oct 22, 1999
15,613
11,255
136
Do you find much value in handwriting? I don't really. Even doing math I usually prefer opening up Mathematica and using that like my scratch pad and then once I have the result and want it to be readable I'll type it up via LaTeX and build a pdf.
I believe research shows hand writing notes leads to better retention and understanding than typing them. It definitely leads to less distractions while listening to a lecture.

I think there is probably also a lot of benefit in handwriting math problems when learning math.
 
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Zorba

Lifer
Oct 22, 1999
15,613
11,255
136
Cursive basically IS calligraphy. It's far more difficult to read than print. And what use does it have other than looking fancy?
I grew up learning it, and my day to day writing is a hybrid of print and cursive (left handed no less, good luck reading it). But practically speaking? It doesn't serve me any value.
The value back in the day was it was significantly faster to write than print, which is much faster than block letters.
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
87,935
55,288
136
I believe research shows hand writing notes leads to better retention and understanding than typing them. It definitely leads to less distractions while listening to a lecture.

I think there is probably also a lot of benefit in handwriting math problems when learning math.
In college I used to hand write all my class notes instead of typing them. I almost never went back and read my notes but I agree it helped me retain information and pay attention better.
 

SteveGrabowski

Diamond Member
Oct 20, 2014
8,949
7,661
136
I believe research shows hand writing notes leads to better retention and understanding than typing them. It definitely leads to less distractions while listening to a lecture.

I think there is probably also a lot of benefit in handwriting math problems when learning math.
Maybe it's just me, but when I type something up it makes me want to edit it to be more readable whether that's writing in a more natural language as if I was writing a book or cleaning up my derivations to explain difficult steps in more detail while suppressing extraneous detail and intermediate results for easier parts. Studying math (and physics) is still one of my favorite hobbies and I really don't like writing calculations down on paper. About the only time I really like using pen and paper is drawing diagrams, like if say I'm doing a contour integral and it's way easier to draw the contour I'm integrating over than creating the contour in tikz for LaTeX. Eg like the contour below that I wrote up a quick paper in LaTeX for to work on learning how to do graphics in tikz. But much easier to draw by hand than doing it algorithmically.

tikz-ex.png
 
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vi edit

Elite Member
Super Moderator
Oct 28, 1999
62,484
8,345
126
There is absolutely merit to actually writing things vs typing. Even if you don't go back and read them, it's the function of committing brain power to writing out the words, seeing it, and thinking through how you want to write it. There's just an extra layer of processing and memorization that happens that typing doesn't provide.

My latest *uuuuuuuuuuhggggggggggg* moment. I have a 6th grader doing fractions. They need to do worksheets. Oh but it's not really a worksheet. It's an assignment in an online module that has you type in some things (like what's a quotient vs a divisor) but then when it comes to the *actual* work you need to do it on a piece of paper you scrape up from home, do the work, and then to "show it" you have kids needing to take a freaking chrome book and try this gymnastic act of taking a picture of a piece of paper with the potato cam quality web camera and upload it. Watching my kid struggle trying to figure out where, what, and how to do this was just beyond obnoxious.

Send home the damn assignment on a piece of paper for fucks sake. Let them do it. And bring it back. Enough with this stupid needless technical overhead that introduces nothing of value. The online shit for a 6th grader turns a 5 minute assignment into a 20 minute one. You spend more time fidgeting with the technical interfaces than you do actually learning the stuff you need to learn.
 

SteveGrabowski

Diamond Member
Oct 20, 2014
8,949
7,661
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I'm sure other factors were at play, but on the point about COVID in particular, we can't succumb to the logic that saving even one life is never a tradeoff for anything else of value. If we did, the speed limit would be 10 mph on the freeway, if we were even allowed to drive. Whether we like the idea of it or not, we make tradeoffs with safety versus other things every day. And that calculus will consider both the value of the other thing, and the number of people likely to be harmed. In the case of education, I would point out that it's even more crucial now than ever, with poorly educated Americans making extremely bad choices at the ballot box which could even end democracy. Not only that, we are eliminating unskilled labor with AI and robotics, and replacing it with high tech jobs, meaning it's an even bigger disadvantage these days to be without a good education than it was when we were young.

Not all of that is on COVID, of course. It's a broader conversation. But we should think very carefully about school closures should the situation arise in the future.
Teachers are so disrespected in America and didn't deserve to be hero'ed when they're a group that was at extreme risk for COVID due to poverty and all the health risks that brings from shitty health insurance to shitty diet to through the roof stress, on top of the through the roof stress of their job. And then being cooped up with 30 people in a small room, then 30 different people in another small room, over and over the whole day so they could maximize their exposure to the most deadly virus we had seen in a century that was running through our population. Teachers do not owe their lives to our sociopathic nation. Pay me you want me to take that kind of risk.
 
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[DHT]Osiris

Lifer
Dec 15, 2015
17,367
16,635
146
There is absolutely merit to actually writing things vs typing. Even if you don't go back and read them, it's the function of committing brain power to writing out the words, seeing it, and thinking through how you want to write it. There's just an extra layer of processing and memorization that happens that typing doesn't provide.

My latest *uuuuuuuuuuhggggggggggg* moment. I have a 6th grader doing fractions. They need to do worksheets. Oh but it's not really a worksheet. It's an assignment in an online module that has you type in some things (like what's a quotient vs a divisor) but then when it comes to the *actual* work you need to do it on a piece of paper you scrape up from home, do the work, and then to "show it" you have kids needing to take a freaking chrome book and try this gymnastic act of taking a picture of a piece of paper with the potato cam quality web camera and upload it. Watching my kid struggle trying to figure out where, what, and how to do this was just beyond obnoxious.

Send home the damn assignment on a piece of paper for fucks sake. Let them do it. And bring it back. Enough with this stupid needless technical overhead that introduces nothing of value. The online shit for a 6th grader turns a 5 minute assignment into a 20 minute one. You spend more time fidgeting with the technical interfaces than you do actually learning the stuff you need to learn.
Just teaching them the frustration they'll need to feel as an adult doing the same goddamned thing for work/misc administrative make-work.
 

SteveGrabowski

Diamond Member
Oct 20, 2014
8,949
7,661
136
Because that would have been too difficult/expensive to do.

And we couldn't even get people (largely) to do even the most basic, non-invasive things like wearing a mask in public.
Indeed, human life is one of the cheapest things on the planet.
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
87,935
55,288
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Teachers are so disrespected in America and didn't deserve to be hero'ed when they're a group that was at extreme risk for COVID due to poverty and all the health risks that brings from shitty health insurance to shitty diet to through the roof stress, on top of the through the roof stress of their job. And then being cooped up with 30 people in a small room, then 30 different people in another small room, over and over the whole day so they could maximize their exposure to the most deadly virus we had seen in a century that was running through our population. Teachers do not owe their lives to our sociopathic nation. Pay me you want me to take that kind of risk.
I don't agree. First, COVID is not very deadly to those who are not elderly or immune compromised. I know in NYC we had accommodations for those who were at substantial risk of severe COVID and they did not have to return to in-person instruction. (some still have not) Effective education matters - a lot - and the kids who didn't have any in-person instruction for two years or more in some cases will bear the effects of that for life.

I think there was absolutely a balance that could have been struck to protect vulnerable teachers while bringing kids back in-person and I wish we had done that better.
 

SteveGrabowski

Diamond Member
Oct 20, 2014
8,949
7,661
136
I don't agree. First, COVID is not very deadly to those who are not elderly or immune compromised. I know in NYC we had accommodations for those who were at substantial risk of severe COVID and they did not have to return to in-person instruction. (some still have not) Effective education matters - a lot - and the kids who didn't have any in-person instruction for two years or more in some cases will bear the effects of that for life.

I think there was absolutely a balance that could have been struck to protect vulnerable teachers while bringing kids back in-person and I wish we had done that better.
I would have refused to do in person in 2020 if I was a teacher and continued until a month after my second COVID shot in 2021. COVID is pretty deadly in diabetics for example. My cousin in law was killed by COVID in summer 2020, and my closest friend of 35 years was killed by COVID in spring 2021, both of them likely thanks to be being type 2 diabetic. You work a shit job with long hours for trash pay and Standard American Diet for the poors puts you on a great path to Type 2 diabetes with how much sugar is in practically everything at the grocery store. There's no balance in hero'ing teachers before they can get immunized against the most deadly virus we had seen in a century.
 
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fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
87,935
55,288
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I would have refused to do in person in 2020 if I was a teacher and continued until a month after my second COVID shot in 2021. COVID is pretty deadly in diabetics for example. My cousin was killed by COVID in summer 2020, and my closest friend of 35 years was killed by COVID in spring 2021, both of them likely thanks to be being type 2 diabetic. You work a shit job with long hours for trash pay and Standard American Diet for the poors puts you on a great path to Type 2 diabetes with how much sugar is in practically everything at the grocery store. There's no balance in hero'ing teachers before they can get immunized against the most deadly virus we had seen in a century.
In NYC if you have diabetes you simply apply for a reasonable accommodation and you would not have been required to report for in-person teaching so how is that relevant?

The average age of an active NYC teacher is 42. For the 40-50 age pre-vax group IFR for COVID is somewhere around 0.035%, and that includes those with heightened vulnerability to severe COVID, meaning the IFR for those without risk factors would be even lower than that. Is the argument really that we need to inflict significant learning loss on a generation of kids for years in order to protect teachers from a disease with a sub 0.035% fatality rate? I suspect there are plenty of other activities teachers undertake with similar risks.

 

[DHT]Osiris

Lifer
Dec 15, 2015
17,367
16,635
146
In NYC if you have diabetes you simply apply for a reasonable accommodation and you would not have been required to report for in-person teaching so how is that relevant?

The average age of an active NYC teacher is 42. For the 40-50 age pre-vax group IFR for COVID is somewhere around 0.035%, and that includes those with heightened vulnerability to severe COVID, meaning the IFR for those without risk factors would be even lower than that. Is the argument really that we need to inflict significant learning loss on a generation of kids for years in order to protect teachers from a disease with a sub 0.035% fatality rate? I suspect there are plenty of other activities teachers undertake with similar risks.

NYC has over 200k teachers. Assuming they all got infected (likely), NYC lost upwards of 70 teaching professionals. That shouldn't be diminished.
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
87,935
55,288
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NYC has over 200k teachers. Assuming they all got infected (likely), NYC lost upwards of 70 teaching professionals. That shouldn't be diminished.
NYC has approximately 75,000 teachers. (At least those that work for the DOE, and charters and private schools could make their own rules)
 

SteveGrabowski

Diamond Member
Oct 20, 2014
8,949
7,661
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In NYC if you have diabetes you simply apply for a reasonable accommodation and you would not have been required to report for in-person teaching so how is that relevant?
Because the nation isn't all NYC

The average age of an active NYC teacher is 42. For the 40-50 age pre-vax group IFR for COVID is somewhere around 0.035%, and that includes those with heightened vulnerability to severe COVID, meaning the IFR for those without risk factors would be even lower than that. Is the argument really that we need to inflict significant learning loss on a generation of kids for years in order to protect teachers from a disease with a sub 0.035% fatality rate? I suspect there are plenty of other activities teachers undertake with similar risks.
Yet another shit sandwich to slop on teachers' plates. Here go get this novel virus that killed a million Americans in 2020 and can ruin you for life with long COVID if the worst case doesn't happen when we have no way to combat the virus because you're essential workers needed to babysit. And we'll still pay you like shit.
 

[DHT]Osiris

Lifer
Dec 15, 2015
17,367
16,635
146
NYC has approximately 75,000 teachers. (At least those that work for the DOE, and charters and private schools could make their own rules)
Apologies, i misread a stat for NYS rather than NYC. That's still like 30 teachers, you shouldn't be killing off so many professionals in a year.
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
87,935
55,288
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Because the nation isn't all NYC
Sure, but wouldn’t that be an argument for adopting reasonable accommodations and not closing schools?
Yet another shit sandwich to slop on teachers' plates. Here go get this novel virus that killed a million Americans in 2020 and can ruin you for life with long COVID if the worst case doesn't happen when we have no way to combat the virus because you're essential workers needed to babysit. And we'll still pay you like shit.
So to be clear you believe we should close schools whenever there is a risk factor to staff of somewhat less than 0.035%? I don’t see how that’s tenable.

While I absolutely agree the health of teachers should be considered, shouldn’t the education and long term effects on students be considered?
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
87,935
55,288
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Apologies, i misread a stat for NYS rather than NYC. That's still like 30 teachers, you shouldn't be killing off so many professionals in a year.
Really though, that stat includes everyone with high risk factors like diabetes, immune compromise, etc., all of whom would not be required to return to in-person instruction.

So you’re really probably talking about something significantly lower than that, and that doesn’t even take into account that a very large percentage of teachers got COVID while they weren’t teaching in-person anyway.

At what point do organizations dedicated to the education and welfare of children start to take the education and welfare of children into account?
 

SteveGrabowski

Diamond Member
Oct 20, 2014
8,949
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So to be clear you believe we should close schools whenever there is a risk factor to staff of somewhat less than 0.035%? I don’t see how that’s tenable.
You act like we understood COVID in 2020. Like numbers were reliable in 2020 when the COVID death tolls were hugely underreported, which was crystal clear when you'd go look up how much pneumonia death tolls shot up in the confederate states during the first few months of the pandemic. The schools should have been closed until teachers had sufficient opportunity for vaccination against a novel virus not well understood, which didn't happen April/May 2021.