Hey, GM: Can I retire at 48, too?

bozack

Diamond Member
Jan 14, 2000
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Why should the rest of us taxpayers -- who don't get the same privilege -- help GM cover those costs?

GM's new restructuring plan seeks an additional $16.6 billion in government aid -- for now. Chrysler wants an additional $5 billion. The $30 billion that General Motors (GM, news, msgs) has either received or requested since December doesn't count the $8 billion it wants to develop fuel-efficient cars, and another $6 billion it's soliciting from foreign governments.

For these taxpayer subsidies, the government could buy hundreds of thousands of GM cars a month and give them to deserving citizens. Make mine a Corvette, please.

Before deciding what to do with Detroit's demands, uh, requests, government officials first need to confront a fundamental question: How could so many smart people produce such a disastrous result?

Make no mistake, there have been many bright minds in the American auto industry over the years -- at the automakers, the United Auto Workers union and the components companies. Most of them saw today's troubles coming for years, even decades.

"I frankly don't see how we're going to meet the foreign competition," said Henry Ford II, then chairman and CEO of Ford Motor (F, news, msgs), on May 13, 1971, right after the annual shareholders' meeting. "We've only seen the beginning," he predicted. Regarding Americans' increasing preference for small cars, he declared: "Mini car, mini profits."

That was a couple of years before Detroit agreed to let autoworkers retire with full pension and benefits after 30 years on the job, regardless of their age. In practice, that meant a worker could start at age 18, retire at 48, and spend more years collecting a pension and free health care than he or she actually spent working.

It wasn't long before even union officials realized they had created a monster. In 1977, UAW Vice President Irving Bluestone said he was "flabbergasted" that so many workers were retiring at age 55 or younger.

"We were aware that the trend to early retirement was escalating . . . but we were surprised at the escalation in 1976," Bluestone declared. "It is astounding."

None of this is ancient history. The 30-and-out retirement program persists -- a sacred part of the inflated cost structure that makes it unprofitable for Detroit to make small cars in America.

Another example: Every Detroit factory still has dozens of union committeemen -- the bargaining committee, shop committee, health and safety committee, recreation committee, etc. -- who actually are paid by the car companies. This is a "legacy cost" that the nonunion Japanese, German and Korean car factories in America don't have to carry.

The union, though, shouldn't bear the entire blame for Detroit's disaster. It wasn't the UAW that pushed GM into the home-mortgage market, where it has incurred billions in losses over the last couple of years.

Nor can the UAW be blamed for Saturn and Saab, two brands that never made money, as GM executives have recently acknowledged. What they haven't explained is why their company would keep these money-losers around for nearly 20 years.

So why were these problems allowed to fester, when smart people recognized them all along?

The answer is that the solutions were painful, requiring not just brains but considerable amounts of courage.

UAW officials weren't brave enough to risk re-election defeat by agreeing to curtail the 30-and-out plan. Detroit executives weren't about to take on the union and risk a strike that could cost them billions. GM likewise felt hamstrung on Saturn and Saab by state dealer-franchise laws, especially after they spent $1.3 billion to shut down Oldsmobile a few years ago.

Perhaps the best analogy, and one that Washington will understand, is Social Security. Everybody in Congress and the White House has known for years that it's a ticking time bomb, thanks to actuarial trends and inadequate funding. But when President George W. Bush tried to reform the system early in his second term, he was handed a crippling defeat.

Which brings us back to the restructuring plans proposed by GM and Chrysler, the two companies currently getting government welfare.

Missing from both are concessions from the UAW to reduce the cost of health care for retirees. Ironically, union retirees over age 65 continue to receive generous, company-paid benefits, while their former bosses in management have to rely on Medicare. The companies could -- and did -- unilaterally change the health care plans for management, but they have to negotiate changes for union workers and retirees.

Other missing links include any agreement with bondholders to substantially reduce the amount of outstanding debt, which is an especially acute issue for GM. And the cost of compensating dealers for killing brands -- Hummer and Pontiac, as well as Saturn and Saab -- is likely to be substantial.

GM justifies its bailout request by contending that a bankruptcy filing will cost the government $100 billion to guarantee pension payments and other obligations.

But here's the thing: The total of nearly $45 billion requested so far from the Treasury Department, the Energy Department and friendly foreigners gets us almost halfway to $100 billion, even if the company doesn't request more money down the road -- which one suspects it will.

Without a bankruptcy filing, the issues with the UAW, dealers and bondholders are likely to remain unresolved. The same pain-avoidance motive that has kept these issues festering for years will continue.

Chrysler's plan, meanwhile, basically requires constant government subsidies until the benefits of its proposed alliance with Fiat (FIATY, news, msgs) begin to flow, at best a couple of years from now. So the taxpayers are being asked to provide funds that neither Chrysler's private-equity owners nor Fiat, which would get 35% of Chrysler's stock, are willing to provide.

As for the automakers' fear that Americans won't buy cars from a company in bankruptcy, that damage has been done. In fact, bankruptcy will improve their chances of survival by relieving them of financial obligations that they can't afford.

And that's just the conclusion that President Barack Obama's new automotive task force should reach. The purpose of bankruptcy -- either a plain-vanilla Chapter 11 or a special-flavor version that would require a new federal law -- wouldn't be to punish Detroit's car companies. It would be to give them a chance to survive, just as radical surgery, however painful, often saves the lives of sick patients.

And as their latest restructuring plans make clear, General Motors and Chrysler are very sick indeed.

So really, why should we as taxpayers support benefits like this when most of us don't get the same luxury??

They should let these companies fail, heck I own a Saab and wouldn't mind a CTX caddie, but c'mon....too much money flushed down the tubes here.
 

palehorse

Lifer
Dec 21, 2005
11,521
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Gee... the unions are partially to blame for the downfall of our auto industry? Whodathunkit!? :confused:
 

Zebo

Elite Member
Jul 29, 2001
39,398
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Join USMC then you can get it after 20 yrs. Why the hate for working man? You guys don't see that this wholesale shift aboard, while getting you cheap goods temporary, will inevitably put you at their standard of living? Or worse since you owe them? Keep it up, you'll see.

I want to say this as clearly as it can be said. The offshoring of American jobs is the antithesis of free trade. Free trade is based on comparative advantage. Jobs offshoring is an activity in pursuit of lowest factor cost?an activity that David Ricardo, the originator of the free trade theory, described as the betrayal of one?s own country in pursuit of "absolute advantage."

The "free market" shills on the payroll of the U.S. Chamber, NAM, and in economics departments and think tanks that are recipients of grants from transnational corporations are whores aligned with elites who are destroying the American work force.

http://onlinejournal.com/artma...ish/article_4377.shtml
 

bozack

Diamond Member
Jan 14, 2000
7,913
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Originally posted by: Zebo
Join USMC then you can get it after 20 yrs. Why the hate for working man? You guys don't see that this wholesale shift aboard, while getting you cheap goods temporary, will inevitably put you at their standard of living? Or worse since you owe them? Keep it up, you'll see.

A career in the USMC is at times life threatening and truly challenging work...they deserve to get out early IMHO...

But a union laborer on the floor of an auto plant, especially one that doesn't perform well enough to keep themselves solvent...sorry fail to see the comparison other than they both simply get to retire with a pension early, plus I would be willing to bet the UAW member makes alot more than that USMC retiree...

Like I said, why subsidize something for someone else when most aren't even given that opportunity in this country?
 

bctbct

Diamond Member
Dec 22, 2005
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If you want to bitch, finance guys make in a year what uaw make in 30 years.
 

Harvey

Administrator<br>Elite Member
Oct 9, 1999
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Originally posted by: bozack

Topic Title: Hey, GM: Can I retire at 48, too?
Topic Summary: Regardless of age, autoworkers get full pension and benefits after 30 years on the job.

Aside from the fact that this was part of a labor agreement from thiry-eight years ago, when we weren't under economic circumstanses anywhere near as threatening as today, if you take that as the main point of the article, which it isn't, you obviously haven't put in any serious time working for a single employer.

The ideas behind such agreements are that, over their term of employment, an employee is continuously contributing to the company's employment program, and the full value of the benefits would vest after thirty years.

This is no big scam by the unions. Until the Bushwhackos and their wealthy Wall Street robber barons broke our economic system, including and especially retirement programs (think Enron), it was a common practice.

It's a freaking arithmetic problem worked out by accountants and actuaries that doesn't even contemplate that the value of an employee's service for a company increases and is cumulative over time.

If you really want to retire at 48, enlist in the military. As others have noted, that's how their retirement program works. Would you advocate crapping on those who serve in our military? :roll:
 

Perknose

Forum Director & Omnipotent Overlord
Forum Director
Oct 9, 1999
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Originally posted by: bctbct
If you want to bitch, finance guys make in a year what uaw make in 30 years.

Yeah, can I get a huge three figure bonus even if I lie to my clients and suck at my job?

Oh, wait, there's a working stiff getting a pension after 30 fucking years on the line . . . SWARM, SWARM, SWARM! :roll:
 

DealMonkey

Lifer
Nov 25, 2001
13,136
1
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So do teachers, and firefighters, and cops. In other words, who TF cares? Employees should be able to negotiate for the best pay and benefits they can get. /thread
 

Pneumothorax

Golden Member
Nov 4, 2002
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Originally posted by: DealMonkey
So do teachers, and firefighters, and cops. In other words, who TF cares? Employees should be able to negotiate for the best pay and benefits they can get. /thread

Not when we "the taxpayers" supposedly are financing this crap on our dime. The problem is the "negotiators" on this are Pwned by union leaders so they'll be more than willing to kill the company before they touch these golden eggs.
 

bozack

Diamond Member
Jan 14, 2000
7,913
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Originally posted by: Harvey
you obviously haven't put in any serious time working for a single employer.

Well you hit that nail on the head Harv....Longest I have worked for any company is nearly 4 years, just don't see why I would give any one company that much of my time especially if I can move up or get bored when working there...I figure these companies don't care for me so why should I care about them, have seen many of my friends laid off and or their departments outsourced over the years so I try to keep moving and getting as much experience as I can.

And for the whole economic mess... last I checked Frank and the rest of the dem liberal brigade had their hand in what we see today, so while it is no surprise to see you beating that bush hatred drum over and over, still one has to give credit where it is due.

And like I said Harv, I tend to consider serving the country much differently than I would screwing in some bolts....those who honor the country with service deserve such a reward....whereas those who add little, especially since their industry is more of a burden than a benefit...well need I say more
 

bozack

Diamond Member
Jan 14, 2000
7,913
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Originally posted by: bctbct
If you want to bitch, finance guys make in a year what uaw make in 30 years.

Its called having a skill and marketing yourself vs unskilled labor. The only parallel is that now both are asking for a handout and IMHO neither should get it.
 

SickBeast

Lifer
Jul 21, 2000
14,377
19
81
Originally posted by: Pneumothorax
Originally posted by: DealMonkey
So do teachers, and firefighters, and cops. In other words, who TF cares? Employees should be able to negotiate for the best pay and benefits they can get. /thread

Not when we "the taxpayers" supposedly are financing this crap on our dime. The problem is the "negotiators" on this are Pwned by union leaders so they'll be more than willing to kill the company before they touch these golden eggs.

What's interesting is that Canada, a far more socialist country where you have teachers making twice as much in the USA, fared much better during this fiscal crisis and did not have a single bank fail.

It was the free-wheeling right-wing controlled US economy that got us into this mess. There should have been better measures in place to protect us from what is going on.
 

IronWing

No Lifer
Jul 20, 2001
72,650
33,487
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Originally posted by: bozack
Originally posted by: bctbct
If you want to bitch, finance guys make in a year what uaw make in 30 years.

Its called having a skill and marketing yourself vs unskilled labor. The only parallel is that now both are asking for a handout and IMHO neither should get it.

Pttttt. Do finance people honestly convince themselves they produce shit or do they just go with the flow and take the money knowing it's all BS?
 

bozack

Diamond Member
Jan 14, 2000
7,913
12
81
Originally posted by: ironwing
Pttttt. Do finance people honestly convince themselves they produce shit or do they just go with the flow and take the money knowing it's all BS?

They market themselves to make others feel they are worth it...since I don't work in finance I really don't give them much thought other than I don't think any of these industries should be bailed out.
 

boomerang

Lifer
Jun 19, 2000
18,883
641
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Originally posted by: bozack
So really, why should we as taxpayers support benefits like this when most of us don't get the same luxury??

They should let these companies fail, heck I own a Saab and wouldn't mind a CTX caddie, but c'mon....too much money flushed down the tubes here.
You've got far more to be concerned about than your petty jealousy in regards to autoworkers. If you've been paying any attention to the news, you'd know this. Any money loaned to the automakers is a pittance when you consider how much is being doled out. Looks like AIG needs 60 billion more.

Life is a series of decisions and none of us really know which are the right ones. If you wanted to retire at 48, you should have been an autoworker.

Start acting like a grown-up.
 

bozack

Diamond Member
Jan 14, 2000
7,913
12
81
Originally posted by: boomerang
You've got far more to be concerned about than your petty jealousy in regards to autoworkers. If you've been paying any attention to the news, you'd know this. Any money loaned to the automakers is a pittance when you consider how much is being doled out. Looks like AIG needs 60 billion more.

Life is a series of decisions and none of us really know which are the right ones. If you wanted to retire at 48, you should have been an autoworker.

Start acting like a grown-up.

Acting like a grown up...comming from the guy taking the time to rip me out for agreeing with an article posted on MSN, please.

Jealousy, hardly...rather I don't want to be subsidizing these guys, period...

It was one thing when the companies could stand on their own, but now "I" am going to be paying so these people can remain as unproductive as they were in the past....they have to give a little more on the union side and make themselves truly competitive....

the financial firms are no better, but last I checked this was a post about GM, not AIG.
 

DealMonkey

Lifer
Nov 25, 2001
13,136
1
0
Originally posted by: Pneumothorax
Originally posted by: DealMonkey
So do teachers, and firefighters, and cops. In other words, who TF cares? Employees should be able to negotiate for the best pay and benefits they can get. /thread

Not when we "the taxpayers" supposedly are financing this crap on our dime. The problem is the "negotiators" on this are Pwned by union leaders so they'll be more than willing to kill the company before they touch these golden eggs.

This has been going on for a long time and need I remind you that the bail-out cash GM has rec'd goes to help the company as a whole, not just the union workers. Awfully white of you though, to support yanking these people's pensions just because you have some anti-union stick up your ass.
 

jpeyton

Moderator in SFF, Notebooks, Pre-Built/Barebones
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Aug 23, 2003
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The whining on this forum has gotten out of control.
 

Zebo

Elite Member
Jul 29, 2001
39,398
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Originally posted by: Perknose
Originally posted by: bctbct
If you want to bitch, finance guys make in a year what uaw make in 30 years.

Yeah, can I get a huge three figure bonus even if I lie to my clients and suck at my job?

Oh, wait, there's a working stiff getting a pension after 30 fucking years on the line . . . SWARM, SWARM, SWARM! :roll:

Three? As in $100 ..You must mean 6...

Or better still, you get a figure 8 bonus when you move that working stiff off a Defined benefit plan into a Defined contribution plan.. and as an added bonus you get to steal it again after it hits the market!
 

TheoPetro

Banned
Nov 30, 2004
3,499
1
0
GM is a pension fund financed by selling cars. The fucktard unions are responsible for as much of the bullshit as the entrenched stubborn management. I say let them both burn. The rich in this country need a reality check as badly as the poor.

To the rich: you cant go around acting like fucking twits because you have some misguided superiority complex. Stop seeing employees as commodities and learn to treat people correctly or GTFO.

To the poor: grow the fuck up, the man hasn't been holding you down, man up. Place SOME value in education and pull yourselves out of your situation. If you cant afford it DONT FUCKING BUY IT YOU GOD DAMN IDIOTS!
 

TheoPetro

Banned
Nov 30, 2004
3,499
1
0
Annnnnnnnnnnnd to the unions who I almost forgot

DIAF!

Stop throwing your weight (what little you have left) around because you think that the "skill" of turning a knob or pushing a button deserves 40k a year. IT DOESNT!
Stop being mad at management because of their "dumb" decisions. Go get a god damned business degree and give it a try for yourself.
Stop the entitlement bullshit that you seem to love so much. You do not have the RIGHT to work for ANYONE. The company chooses who they want and if youre not it GTFO!
 

evident

Lifer
Apr 5, 2005
12,129
748
126
i refuse to support a bailout of $30B+ to a company that can only has two good cars, the cts and the corvette. does the concept of diminishing returns ring a bell to any gm fanboys around here
 

DealMonkey

Lifer
Nov 25, 2001
13,136
1
0
Originally posted by: TheoPetro
Annnnnnnnnnnnd to the unions who I almost forgot

DIAF!

Stop throwing your weight (what little you have left) around because you think that the "skill" of turning a knob or pushing a button deserves 40k a year. IT DOESNT!
Stop being mad at management because of their "dumb" decisions. Go get a god damned business degree and give it a try for yourself.
Stop the entitlement bullshit that you seem to love so much. You do not have the RIGHT to work for ANYONE. The company chooses who they want and if youre not it GTFO!

I see you're trying to write an irrational spittle-spewing anti-union rant, can I help?
 

TheoPetro

Banned
Nov 30, 2004
3,499
1
0
Originally posted by: DealMonkey
Originally posted by: TheoPetro
Annnnnnnnnnnnd to the unions who I almost forgot

DIAF!

Stop throwing your weight (what little you have left) around because you think that the "skill" of turning a knob or pushing a button deserves 40k a year. IT DOESNT!
Stop being mad at management because of their "dumb" decisions. Go get a god damned business degree and give it a try for yourself.
Stop the entitlement bullshit that you seem to love so much. You do not have the RIGHT to work for ANYONE. The company chooses who they want and if youre not it GTFO!

I see you're trying to write an irrational spittle-spewing anti-union rant, can I help?

Nope I covered most of the bases I wanted to.

Must suck that the truth about unions comes across as "anti-union" to you.

The union's time is limited and if I have anything at all to do with it (and I plan to) it will be as short as humanly possible.
 

Ozoned

Diamond Member
Mar 22, 2004
5,578
0
0
I got Military pension @ 20 years.
I get Railroad pension at age 60.

GM doesn't have shit over that scenario.