Hey, GM: Can I retire at 48, too?

[TheoPetro]

Originally posted by: Strk
In regard to your second point, how many union jobs have you worked? If they don't understand why executives get paid so much, how about the reverse? For starters, not all union jobs get all the perks possible (kind of defeats the purpose of the union with some of them).

I don't think all companies should be unionized, but I do see their benefit.

I have never been in a union. I have worked as a plumber next to union trades in the past though. I was in the field for ~4 years and then moved into the office. I fully understand where the employees are coming from. I still believe unions have become obsolete and in their panic to stay viable they have been making it very difficult for businesses to function.

In a perfect world there wouldnt be any unions what so ever and the state governments would dictate minimum wage laws (and they would have to be livable wages).

 

[spidey07]

This is normal for most pensions. Nothing to see here. The only thing unusual is the other benefits. But it's quite normal to be able to retire after 30 years of service and continue to receive almost your full salary.

 

[Ozoned]

Originally posted by: Zebo

Originally posted by: charrison

Originally posted by: Ozoned
I got Military pension @ 20 years.
I get Railroad pension at age 60.

GM doesn't have shit over that scenario.

Actually a lot of of military turn around and go civil service after retiring from the military. Then they retire again in 20 from civil service.

You guys don't see anything wrong with government employees living better than private sector who pay for it? I remember and prolly you too Ozoned, a time where it was opposite.

Another unsustainable system.

The promises made to us may turn out to be unsustainable, but they were a key part of the decision to go into the direction that we went. 20 years in the suck without that motivation would not have happened.

When the private sector makes these unsustainable promises, (GM workers able to retire at 48 with 30 years), I think the CEO's & the Union heads know that they are unsustainable, but workable results would result in segments of the industry to completely and permanently shut down.

 

[Ozoned]

Originally posted by: TheoPetro

Originally posted by: Strk
In regard to your second point, how many union jobs have you worked? If they don't understand why executives get paid so much, how about the reverse? For starters, not all union jobs get all the perks possible (kind of defeats the purpose of the union with some of them).

I don't think all companies should be unionized, but I do see their benefit.

I have never been in a union. I have worked as a plumber next to union trades in the past though. I was in the field for ~4 years and then moved into the office. I fully understand where the employees are coming from. I still believe unions have become obsolete and in their panic to stay viable they have been making it very difficult for businesses to function.

In a perfect world there wouldnt be any unions what so ever and the state governments would dictate minimum wage laws (and they would have to be livable wages).

In China, they call that communism. Heh.

 

[Harvey]

Originally posted by: bozack

And like I said Harv, I tend to consider serving the country much differently than I would screwing in some bolts....those who honor the country with service deserve such a reward....whereas those who add little, especially since their industry is more of a burden than a benefit...well need I say more

Yes, you need to say a lot more about why you're so willing to screw those tho putting in years of honest work for American companies at the heart of our economy, paying taxes and contributing to SSI and retirement plans, is any less honorable or deserving of the rewards stipulated and mandated both by law and under contract.

You also need to tell us why you want to screw over those among that workforce who also happen to have served their nation with honor before joining the civilian workforce.

You also need to tell us what makes you think every blue collar job consists of "screwing in some bolts." That generalization suggests that, either you're incredibly ignorant about the scope of work and talent among our workforce, or your ego far exceeds your knowledge, let alone your own value to society.

An apology to the American workforce would be a good start.

 

[Strk]

Originally posted by: Harvey

Originally posted by: bozack

And like I said Harv, I tend to consider serving the country much differently than I would screwing in some bolts....those who honor the country with service deserve such a reward....whereas those who add little, especially since their industry is more of a burden than a benefit...well need I say more

Yes, you need to say a lot more about why you're so willing to screw those tho putting in years of honest work for American companies at the heart of our economy, paying taxes and contributing to SSI and retirement plans, is any less honorable or deserving of the rewards stipulated and mandated both by law and under contract.

You also need to tell us why you want to screw over those among that workforce who also happen to have served their nation with honor before joining the civilian workforce.

You also need to tell us what makes you think every blue collar job consists of "screwing in some bolts." That generalization suggests that, either you're incredibly ignorant about the scope of work and talent among our workforce, or your ego far exceeds your knowledge, let alone your own value to society.

An apology to the American workforce would be a good start.

Isn't it ironic how people keep arguing contracts guaranteeing executive pay and benefits and why they should be honored, all while saying union contracts should be dumped for the good of the company?

 

[StageLeft]

I want to say it's BS and it really is, especially if tax payers have to cover it now, but if you're looking for an outlet for wrath at this point it truly has to rest with government's flushing of money recently down a never ending pit, much of which has been funneled off into bonuses for already obscenely-wealthy people. At least a union worker didn't leave his job after helping to f**k the economy over purely out of unadulterated short-term greed.

 

[TheSlamma]

Originally posted by: bctbct
If you want to bitch, finance guys make in a year what uaw make in 30 years.

Finance guys? I'm going to ask the "Finance Guys" I know how much they make.

 

[imported_gardener]

Originally posted by: Strk

Originally posted by: Harvey

Originally posted by: bozack

And like I said Harv, I tend to consider serving the country much differently than I would screwing in some bolts....those who honor the country with service deserve such a reward....whereas those who add little, especially since their industry is more of a burden than a benefit...well need I say more

Yes, you need to say a lot more about why you're so willing to screw those tho putting in years of honest work for American companies at the heart of our economy, paying taxes and contributing to SSI and retirement plans, is any less honorable or deserving of the rewards stipulated and mandated both by law and under contract.

You also need to tell us why you want to screw over those among that workforce who also happen to have served their nation with honor before joining the civilian workforce.

You also need to tell us what makes you think every blue collar job consists of "screwing in some bolts." That generalization suggests that, either you're incredibly ignorant about the scope of work and talent among our workforce, or your ego far exceeds your knowledge, let alone your own value to society.

An apology to the American workforce would be a good start.

Isn't it ironic how people keep arguing contracts guaranteeing executive pay and benefits and why they should be honored, all while saying union contracts should be dumped for the good of the company?

And the false Patriotism of the OP. He got me teared up, and I only served 8 years.

I lived in Michigan...if you worked in an auto plant, especially on the line, you damn sure deserve to retire after 30 years.

There is more to the world than smelling Rush's farts, bozack.

 

[TeeJay1952]

I am retired from Chrysler. Last day worked was in 2002. I was 50. I did 30 years. That was the deal. Management takes their money upfront. Union takes it in smaller doses. I didn't write the contract. The Union didn't write the contract. Management did. The Union agreed to it.
The OP wants to rewrite history, negate good faith negotiating and throw everyone concerned under the bus. The Financial market destroyed our economic system with their unmitigated greed. Greed kept the bosses selling the same vehicles decade after decade. (where is your flying car....or electric one?) Greed had everyone and his brother refinancing bad loans until the banks go under. Greed has the whole world in trouble because they allowed banks to "create" securities out of bad loans.
You have no idea how difficult it is to do 30 years of hard labor. It is more than most civilized countries Life terms of incarceration. You haven't seen bodies twisted into pretzels because of repetitive motion on the assembly line. I had no control over anything other than me. Now I am being held responsible for the fall of western civilization. I think that the reason anyone anywhere has health care is because of us. So quit complaining about what we have and start trying to figure out how we can increase health care and retirement for the rest of you. The unions are not the problem.

 

[Harvey]

Originally posted by: Strk

Originally posted by: Harvey

Originally posted by: bozack

And like I said Harv, I tend to consider serving the country much differently than I would screwing in some bolts....those who honor the country with service deserve such a reward....whereas those who add little, especially since their industry is more of a burden than a benefit...well need I say more

Yes, you need to say a lot more about why you're so willing to screw those tho putting in years of honest work for American companies at the heart of our economy, paying taxes and contributing to SSI and retirement plans, is any less honorable or deserving of the rewards stipulated and mandated both by law and under contract.

You also need to tell us why you want to screw over those among that workforce who also happen to have served their nation with honor before joining the civilian workforce.

You also need to tell us what makes you think every blue collar job consists of "screwing in some bolts." That generalization suggests that, either you're incredibly ignorant about the scope of work and talent among our workforce, or your ego far exceeds your knowledge, let alone your own value to society.

An apology to the American workforce would be a good start.

Isn't it ironic how people keep arguing contracts guaranteeing executive pay and benefits and why they should be honored, all while saying union contracts should be dumped for the good of the company?

How many of those line workers are exiting with zillion dollar golden parachutes after one to five years of abject failure at their jobs? :roll:

Answer -- They're not. Those retirement benefits vest after decades of productive work. If their work wasn't satisfactory, they were subject to termination. They don't include stock options, a yacht, another Lamborghini or a second, third or fourth mansion in the Hamptons.

 

[Zebo]

Originally posted by: TeeJay1952
I am retired from Chrysler. Last day worked was in 2002. I was 50. I did 30 years. That was the deal. Management takes their money upfront. Union takes it in smaller doses. I didn't write the contract. The Union didn't write the contract. Management did. The Union agreed to it.
The OP wants to rewrite history, negate good faith negotiating and throw everyone concerned under the bus. The Financial market destroyed our economic system with their unmitigated greed. Greed kept the bosses selling the same vehicles decade after decade. (where is your flying car....or electric one?) Greed had everyone and his brother refinancing bad loans until the banks go under. Greed has the whole world in trouble because they allowed banks to "create" securities out of bad loans.
You have no idea how difficult it is to do 30 years of hard labor. It is more than most civilized countries Life terms of incarceration. You haven't seen bodies twisted into pretzels because of repetitive motion on the assembly line. I had no control over anything other than me. Now I am being held responsible for the fall of western civilization. I think that the reason anyone anywhere has health care is because of us. So quit complaining about what we have and start trying to figure out how we can increase health care and retirement for the rest of you. The unions are not the problem.

Exactly these twerps never worked a hard day in a dangerous industrial setting in their life let alone 30 years. And law and order types here have no problem breaking contractual obligations to guys at the bottom.

Just one point on bankers... their greed was a result of no penalty for that greed - government in various efforts steadily have guaranteed every type of loan known to man. Wouldn't you invest in something if there was no down side?

 

[Zebo]

Originally posted by: Ozoned

Originally posted by: Zebo

Originally posted by: charrison

Originally posted by: Ozoned
I got Military pension @ 20 years.
I get Railroad pension at age 60.

GM doesn't have shit over that scenario.

Actually a lot of of military turn around and go civil service after retiring from the military. Then they retire again in 20 from civil service.

You guys don't see anything wrong with government employees living better than private sector who pay for it? I remember and prolly you too Ozoned, a time where it was opposite.

Another unsustainable system.

The promises made to us may turn out to be unsustainable, but they were a key part of the decision to go into the direction that we went. 20 years in the suck without that motivation would not have happened.

When the private sector makes these unsustainable promises, (GM workers able to retire at 48 with 30 years), I think the CEO's & the Union heads know that they are unsustainable, but workable results would result in segments of the industry to completely and permanently shut down.

Oh they will be unsustainable if you understand government creates nothing and only survives on redistribution from private sector. As private sector, and their good jobs go and the stuff they make goes, so goes your planning and will be last to get rehired&payouts as economy struggles to recover. It's always the same pattern.

I just find ironic most of you anti-union hardcore libertarians are government employees...probably the most coddled workforce in the world.

 

[bozack]

Originally posted by: Harvey
Yes, you need to say a lot more about why you're so willing to screw those tho putting in years of honest work for American companies at the heart of our economy, paying taxes and contributing to SSI and retirement plans, is any less honorable or deserving of the rewards stipulated and mandated both by law and under contract.

You also need to tell us why you want to screw over those among that workforce who also happen to have served their nation with honor before joining the civilian workforce.

You also need to tell us what makes you think every blue collar job consists of "screwing in some bolts." That generalization suggests that, either you're incredibly ignorant about the scope of work and talent among our workforce, or your ego far exceeds your knowledge, let alone your own value to society.

An apology to the American workforce would be a good start.

Harvey I am willing to screw them because now I am paying their salary...why should I, someone who also works for a living pay for someone else to get a benefit that most of us never would? I know that I will more than likely never work for a company that offers such a deal, then again I hopefully won't work for a company that is more of a burden financially on society than it is worth.

And how you wrap up those who served and this issue is a bit much....one could say the same thing about those who don't want to give funds to the finance industry...what about all the ex military that work in that field? so because some don't want to help them out then that is ok simply because it isn't an "honest days work" like turning some bolts on an assembly line??

And again why the generalization? since when did I say every blue collar job?? this thread is about the UAW and automotive plants period....plus it isn't every blue collar industry asking for a govt bailout.

And to the poster below about Rush...why is it always assumed that if one has a point that isn't in lockstep with the liberal agenda that the person must listen to Rush...I haven't ever heard nor seen his show and yet here I am with this opinion...go figure.

 

[ElFenix]

GM's been going out of business since 1973, it just took this long for people to realize it.

 

[Ozoned]

Originally posted by: Skoorb
I want to say it's BS and it really is, especially if tax payers have to cover it now, but if you're looking for an outlet for wrath at this point it truly has to rest with government's flushing of money recently down a never ending pit, much of which has been funneled off into bonuses for already obscenely-wealthy people. At least a union worker didn't leave his job after helping to f**k the economy over purely out of unadulterated short-term greed.

Government insured pension plans

If you work for a company that has these type of pension plans (I presume the auto makers pensions are amongst them), they have been paying a healthy premium for the insurance. Of course, if the company goes bust, the insurance plan takes the whole hit, usually at a reduced benefits and the government doesn't have to continue the health benefits. A company only has to make the promise to it's workers and pay the premium to garner votes for their contract proposals, even if they know they are unsustainable. This years insured level, 44,000 a year is a nice pension.

 

[imported_gardener]

Originally posted by: TeeJay1952
I am retired from Chrysler. Last day worked was in 2002. I was 50. I did 30 years. That was the deal. Management takes their money upfront. Union takes it in smaller doses. I didn't write the contract. The Union didn't write the contract. Management did. The Union agreed to it.
The OP wants to rewrite history, negate good faith negotiating and throw everyone concerned under the bus. The Financial market destroyed our economic system with their unmitigated greed. Greed kept the bosses selling the same vehicles decade after decade. (where is your flying car....or electric one?) Greed had everyone and his brother refinancing bad loans until the banks go under. Greed has the whole world in trouble because they allowed banks to "create" securities out of bad loans.
You have no idea how difficult it is to do 30 years of hard labor. It is more than most civilized countries Life terms of incarceration. You haven't seen bodies twisted into pretzels because of repetitive motion on the assembly line. I had no control over anything other than me. Now I am being held responsible for the fall of western civilization. I think that the reason anyone anywhere has health care is because of us. So quit complaining about what we have and start trying to figure out how we can increase health care and retirement for the rest of you. The unions are not the problem.

Kudos to you, man. I worked for a secondary supplier in Grand Rapids during my college years, stamping metal, called Prigeon and Clay. Saw many people disabled by repetitive motion injuries.

Blue collar workers built this country, paid its taxes, and and won its wars.

 

[Harvey]

Originally posted by: bozack

Harvey I am willing to screw them because now I am paying their salary...why should I, someone who also works for a living pay for someone else to get a benefit that most of us never would? I know that I will more than likely never work for a company that offers such a deal, then again I hopefully won't work for a company that is more of a burden financially on society than it is worth.

Those who worked for decades under the terms of a contract don't owe you squat. The cost of meeting the companies' obligations under such contracts is supposed to be part of their cost of doing business.

Exactly how do expect fifty - sixty-five year old workers at or near retirement to support themselves and their families AFTER they've already put in the time and done the work?

You can vent your frustration by not buying the products from those companies. If the company failed, take it from the golden parachutes given to those execs who drove them there, not those whose entire lives were spent doing honest work.

Get over your egocentric self. Those employees fulfilled the bargain they made twenty to thirty years ago, and their labor enriched those execs. If you're still willing to rape them by leaving them and their families homeless and without a means of support, screw you.

 

[mect]

Originally posted by: TeeJay1952
I am retired from Chrysler. Last day worked was in 2002. I was 50. I did 30 years. That was the deal. Management takes their money upfront. Union takes it in smaller doses. I didn't write the contract. The Union didn't write the contract. Management did. The Union agreed to it.
The OP wants to rewrite history, negate good faith negotiating and throw everyone concerned under the bus. The Financial market destroyed our economic system with their unmitigated greed. Greed kept the bosses selling the same vehicles decade after decade. (where is your flying car....or electric one?) Greed had everyone and his brother refinancing bad loans until the banks go under. Greed has the whole world in trouble because they allowed banks to "create" securities out of bad loans.
You have no idea how difficult it is to do 30 years of hard labor. It is more than most civilized countries Life terms of incarceration. You haven't seen bodies twisted into pretzels because of repetitive motion on the assembly line. I had no control over anything other than me. Now I am being held responsible for the fall of western civilization. I think that the reason anyone anywhere has health care is because of us. So quit complaining about what we have and start trying to figure out how we can increase health care and retirement for the rest of you. The unions are not the problem.

I'm not negating how hard the work is. I also have no fundamental problem with unions. I'd have no problem with these pensions if the they weren't being paid for by tax dollars. Good faith negotiating has no hold here because the company can no longer cover the costs. You can do whatever you like to the auto industry to try to squeeze what was agreed to out of them, but you can't just go to your neighbor and say, "My company promised me a pension, pay up!" That is what is being done here. If it were a small, lone company that was going under, do you think the government would be covering their pensions for them. Not at all. That is part of the risk involved with any contract. But the contract is only between the workers and the company. You can't just force any person on the street to meet the terms of a contract they weren't involved in.

 

[bozack]

Originally posted by: Harvey

Those who worked for decades under the terms of a contract don't owe you squat. The cost of meeting the companies' obligations under such contracts is supposed to be part of their cost of doing business.

Exactly how do expect fifty - sixty-five year old workers at or near retirement to support themselves and their families AFTER they've already put in the time and done the work?

You can vent your frustration by not buying the products from those companies. If the company failed, take it from the golden parachutes given to those execs who drove them there, not those whose entire lives were spent doing honest work.

Get over your egocentric self. Those employees fulfilled the bargain they made twenty to thirty years ago, and their labor enriched those execs. If you're still willing to rape them by leaving them and their families homeless and without a means of support, screw you.

No Harvey, but they can focus on the current workers and get rid of such benefits...also as Mect said, if this were a small company would they get the same assistance from the govt?? I am guessing no so why should we treat GM any differently?

 

[Harvey]

Originally posted by: bozack

Originally posted by: Harvey

Those who worked for decades under the terms of a contract don't owe you squat. The cost of meeting the companies' obligations under such contracts is supposed to be part of their cost of doing business.

Exactly how do expect fifty - sixty-five year old workers at or near retirement to support themselves and their families AFTER they've already put in the time and done the work?

You can vent your frustration by not buying the products from those companies. If the company failed, take it from the golden parachutes given to those execs who drove them there, not those whose entire lives were spent doing honest work.

Get over your egocentric self. Those employees fulfilled the bargain they made twenty to thirty years ago, and their labor enriched those execs. If you're still willing to rape them by leaving them and their families homeless and without a means of support, screw you.

No Harvey, but they can focus on the current workers and get rid of such benefits...

Great idea going forward. Meanwhile, exactly how many of those who already put in their thirty years and are too old to start over, along with their families, are you willing to shovel out on the streets? :shocked:

 

[Balt]

Originally posted by: TeeJay1952
I am retired from Chrysler. Last day worked was in 2002. I was 50. I did 30 years. That was the deal. Management takes their money upfront. Union takes it in smaller doses. I didn't write the contract. The Union didn't write the contract. Management did. The Union agreed to it.
The OP wants to rewrite history, negate good faith negotiating and throw everyone concerned under the bus. The Financial market destroyed our economic system with their unmitigated greed. Greed kept the bosses selling the same vehicles decade after decade. (where is your flying car....or electric one?) Greed had everyone and his brother refinancing bad loans until the banks go under. Greed has the whole world in trouble because they allowed banks to "create" securities out of bad loans.
You have no idea how difficult it is to do 30 years of hard labor. It is more than most civilized countries Life terms of incarceration. You haven't seen bodies twisted into pretzels because of repetitive motion on the assembly line. I had no control over anything other than me. Now I am being held responsible for the fall of western civilization. I think that the reason anyone anywhere has health care is because of us. So quit complaining about what we have and start trying to figure out how we can increase health care and retirement for the rest of you. The unions are not the problem.

Nice post, thank you for sharing.

 

[alocurto]

Originally posted by: palehorse
Gee... the unions are partially to blame for the downfall of our auto industry? Whodathunkit!?

:thumbsup:

 

[Fern]

Originally posted by: Zebo

Originally posted by: charrison

Originally posted by: Ozoned
I got Military pension @ 20 years.
I get Railroad pension at age 60.

GM doesn't have shit over that scenario.

Actually a lot of of military turn around and go civil service after retiring from the military. Then they retire again in 20 from civil service.

You guys don't see anything wrong with government employees living better than private sector who pay for it? I remember and prolly you too Ozoned, a time where it was opposite.

Another unsustainable system.

Yes, whether or not is "fair" etc., it is an unsustanable system.

I don't begrudge military types, h3ll you can't be sure you'll 20 years.

But this far more reaching than just the UAW, many local & county employees also get hugely expensive retirement benefits. It annoys me when they complain of the low salary, but fail to take into account the amount of their compensation in benefits.

To retire after 20 or 30 years service and get full benefits at a young age with todays's life expectancies is a huge amount of money (bother in term sof receiving and paying).

When the boomers hit full retirement stride this will become more well-know financial problem. Not only do we pay them throgh product costs, sales and property taxes but social security as well.

I wish SS became means-tested. The whole "we'll I paid for it" thing is a farce anyway.

Fern

 

[MovingTarget]

Originally posted by: alocurto

Originally posted by: palehorse
Gee... the unions are partially to blame for the downfall of our auto industry? Whodathunkit!?

:thumbsup:

Gee, Wall Street and shortsighted corporate management are partially to blame for the downfall of our auto industry? Whodathunkit!?

Both sides are to blame for being short-sighted. A person's benefits, union-negotiated or not, are part of their salary, just deferred. GM was making money hand over fist when some of the original contracts were signed. If they had funded the pensions like they were supposed to have done, then they wouldn't be the problem that they are now.

As for the healthcare benefits, I'd say that it is outside of GM's ultimate control. Our healthcare system is broken, and GMs troubles with health benefits (once considered quite reasonable) are a result. If we had some sort of UHC then it wouldn't be a problem for the company. That being said, I know UHC is a stigmatized word around here, but the fact is that our domestic auto companies are at a comparative disadvantage to other countries' auto industries, where the gvt handles the health issue. Whether one agrees we should do the same is another matter.