Healthcare bill debate passed

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blackangst1

Lifer
Feb 23, 2005
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If any of you conservatives find a link with anti- commentary please feel free to PM me. Details are sketchy so far.

And for the record, based on CBO analysis (yes I read it) and a few key provisions that are in it (that will benefit me personally), overall Im cautiously liking it.
 

SirStev0

Lifer
Nov 13, 2003
10,449
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Congress doesn't read it and I can't sort through 2000 pages of it so why should anyone else ?


Yep it is much better to just rely on your favorite talking head, who also didn't read it.

Based on what repugs claim is in this bill it should be 30032094329 pages, not just 2000.
 

blackangst1

Lifer
Feb 23, 2005
22,902
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Yep it is much better to just rely on your favorite talking head, who also didn't read it.

Based on what repugs claim is in this bill it should be 30032094329 pages, not just 2000.

What are they claiming thats not actually in it? Link please or are you shit slinging?
 
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Hayabusa Rider

Admin Emeritus & Elite Member
Jan 26, 2000
50,879
4,268
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I remember not too long ago when repubs controlled both the legislature and the executive, but did nothing wrt health care except throw a really big bone to one of their voting blocs, seniors. Cost didn't matter then, huh-uhh...

Didn't matter when they set out to invade Iraq or when they authorized the purchase of a lot of fancy coldwar military hardware, or when they cut taxes at the top, repeatedly... didn't matter when they ladled out pork to their own members' districts, either.

Dick Cheney reportedly said it himself- "Deficits don't matter."

Now that they've basically allowed banking and healthcare to nearly destroy themselves, deficits are a really big deal, yeh, a really big deal.

Huh. How'd that happen? Why the big turnaround?

Because they've become obstructionists. They oppose any initiatives from the Obama Admin or Dems in general, because they can, because that's who they are, what they've become. Right, wrong, or indifferent, they see it as an exercise in gamesmanship, in winning, in returning to their former glory as members of the lootocracy...

The rest? the fearmongering, raving, button-pushing? Pure obfuscation.


So the Reps screwed up big time, but by heavens the Dems will one up them!

It's the American way.
 

Pneumothorax

Golden Member
Nov 4, 2002
1,182
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The public option in this bill does not use price fixing. It is required to negotiate rates on a regional basis with providers, just like a private plan does. This highly controversial public option is expected to attract about 2% of Americans, leading to about six million total people. It's also expected to have higher premiums than private plans because most likely it will attract sicker people.

Do you guys even read CBO analysis anymore, or do you just go straight from your favorite biased blog and start spewing talking points?

Christ, it's not like this information is hard to find.

So, logically how is this "public option" is supposed to stay solvent? If it's more expensive, therefore not going to attract healthy people and only sick ones who can't afford private insurance... sounds like another big government money pit to me. This public option will be funded >50% by taxes (more likely deficit spending) in less than a decade of it's inception.
 

sciwizam

Golden Member
Oct 22, 2004
1,953
0
0
So, logically how is this "public option" is supposed to stay solvent? If it's more expensive, therefore not going to attract healthy people and only sick ones who can't afford private insurance... sounds like another big government money pit to me. This public option will be funded >50% by taxes (more likely deficit spending) in less than a decade of it's inception.

Would that start from 2009 or 2013?
 

cubby1223

Lifer
May 24, 2004
13,518
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I'm not even going to bother clicking your link. I assume you're mocking religion for who knows why.
 

SirStev0

Lifer
Nov 13, 2003
10,449
6
81
I'm not even going to bother clicking your link. I assume you're mocking religion for who knows why.
Because it is so damn mockable?

I love that when people try to present a logical argument against a religion is is automatically "OMG MOCKING MY RELIGUNS!"
 

blackangst1

Lifer
Feb 23, 2005
22,902
2,360
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I don't know, here is a big one... Socialized medicine?

But its not, really. The way it is built it encourages plans be bought from the private sector. The GOP doesnt seem to have a problem with Medicaid or welfare or unemployment, so I dont understand why this bill? Its pretty tame compared to earlier bills.

(Keep in mind Im a Republican)
 
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blackangst1

Lifer
Feb 23, 2005
22,902
2,360
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Because it is so damn mockable?

I love that when people try to present a logical argument against a religion is is automatically "OMG MOCKING MY RELIGUNS!"

And how many antis read/watch PRO religion with an open mind?

Thats what I thought. Its called human nature.
 

CADsortaGUY

Lifer
Oct 19, 2001
25,162
1
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www.ShawCAD.com
But its not, really. The way it is built it encourages plans be bought from the private sector. The GOP doesnt seem to have a problem with Medicaid or welfare or unemployment, so I dont understand why this bill? Its pretty tame compared to earlier bills.

(Keep in mind Im a Republican)

"encourages"? That's not what I'd call it. Is your definition of "encourage"= $ fine? Mine isn't. I call that FORCING. The biggest hurdle for any such legislation will be the Constitutional test of individual mandates like this. I don't think it'll pass muster but you never know when you have Justices that look to International laws and such instead of the Constitution...
 

Carmen813

Diamond Member
May 18, 2007
3,189
0
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So, logically how is this "public option" is supposed to stay solvent? If it's more expensive, therefore not going to attract healthy people and only sick ones who can't afford private insurance... sounds like another big government money pit to me. This public option will be funded >50% by taxes (more likely deficit spending) in less than a decade of it's inception.

You are assuming it will only attract sick individuals. That isn't true, as the plan will be open to all individuals and small businesses. People can opt in, and the suspicion is that people who had really bad experiences with private companies will opt into the public option. It will have to stay solvent the same way any other insurance plan would: by charging appropriate premiums and negotiating rates with providers.

Sick individuals won't be forced into the public option because they will now be able to buy insurance from private companies.
 

blackangst1

Lifer
Feb 23, 2005
22,902
2,360
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"encourages"? That's not what I'd call it. Is your definition of "encourage"= $ fine? Mine isn't. I call that FORCING. The biggest hurdle for any such legislation will be the Constitutional test of individual mandates like this. I don't think it'll pass muster but you never know when you have Justices that look to International laws and such instead of the Constitution...

I guess when I say encourage, I mean (according to the CBO) the government plan will be more expensive, therefore encouraging people to buy from the private sector. Most people buy on price when benefits are the same.

Look. I know Im in the minority here (a conservative republican who supports a public option). BUT! Before we talk amongst ourselves there are a few basic questions that should be asked:

(try to wipe away any pre-existing thoughts or feelings on this)
Without necessarily using any particular country as an example, do you feel its possible for the United States to both lower its expenditure on healthcare and provide coverage for those who cant provide on their own? Do you feel if those two things are true, we should? If your answer is no, then theres no point in continuing the argument. I believe we can. Starting this venture isnt necessarily going to be pretty, nor is it going to be perfect; however, MY worst fears appear to be alleviated with this bill: the takeover of healthcare by the government. If there is language in the bill that disagrees with that, I would like to see it, and my support will wane. But everything I have read points that the private sector will still be protected.
 
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cubby1223

Lifer
May 24, 2004
13,518
42
86
Because it is so damn mockable?

I love that when people try to present a logical argument against a religion is is automatically "OMG MOCKING MY RELIGUNS!"

Uhhh, you're an idiot who doesn't know how to follow the flow of a discussion? No one was presenting a logical argument for or against a religion.
 

shadow9d9

Diamond Member
Jul 6, 2004
8,132
2
0
I guess when I say encourage, I mean (according to the CBO) the government plan will be more expensive, therefore encouraging people to buy from the private sector. Most people buy on price when benefits are the same.

Look. I know Im in the minority here (a conservative republican who supports a public option). BUT! Before we talk amongst ourselves there are a few basic questions that should be asked:

(try to wipe away any pre-existing thoughts or feelings on this)
Without necessarily using any particular country as an example, do you feel its possible for the United States to both lower its expenditure on healthcare and provide coverage for those who cant provide on their own? Do you feel if those two things are true, we should? If your answer is no, then theres no point in continuing the argument. I believe we can. Starting this venture isnt necessarily going to be pretty, nor is it going to be perfect; however, MY worst fears appear to be alleviated with this bill: the takeover of healthcare by the government. If there is language in the bill that disagrees with that, I would like to see it, and my support will wane. But everything I have read points that the private sector will still be protected.

I understand why it is your worst fear that the health insurance sector is removed. After years of record profits, while denying coverage, denying care, raising prices, and covering less people... they need to be treasured and saved from the government. Health insurances, and all corporations, are more important than the lives of American citizens. Profits and money are american.. not its people.

Matter of fact, insurance companies are far more efficient than foreign countries.. we pay more and get much less.

Very logical. Not insane.


Here are some sources for my claims-

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DoqpPwvUoP0


"Profits at 10 of the country’s largest publicly traded health insurance companies rose 428 percent from 2000 to 2007, while consumers paid more for less coverage. One of the major reasons, according to a new study, is the growing lack of competition in the private health insurance industry that has led to near monopoly conditions in many markets."

http://blog.aflcio.org/2009/05/27/h...oar-as-industry-mergers-create-near-monopoly/



Take a look at a recent report "Insuring Health or Ensuring Profit?; A look at the Financial Gains of Washington's Health Insurers." According to the report, the big three carriers in Washington, Regence BlueShield, Premera Blue Cross and Group Health Cooperative saw profits increase from $11 million in 2002 to $243 million in 2003 and $431 million in 2006. Their cash surplus went from $833 million in 2002 to $2.2 billion (with a "B") in 2006. Interestingly enough they did it while covering less people. Over 2.37 million people were covered by the three in 2002 compared to 1.9 million in 2006.

http://vancouver.injuryboard.com/mi...h-insurance-profits-soar.aspx?googleid=230780



Potter, who spent 15 years at CIGNA, said health plans have a financial incentive to cancel the policies of their most costly members and have implemented strategies to do so. “They look carefully to see if a sick policyholder may have omitted a minor illness, a pre-existing condition, when applying for coverage, and then they use that as justification to cancel the policy,” he testified. And canceling policies for even a small number of such members can have “a big effect” on the bottom line, he added. “Where is the logic and the humanity of having pre-existing conditions not covered in our society?” Potter asked. He noted that his testimony wasn’t aimed at CIGNA specifically, but rather at an industry that he said is “taking this country in the wrong direction.”

http://www.aishealth.com/Bnow/hbd070909.html

""They confuse their customers and dump the sick — all so they can satisfy their Wall Street investors," said Wendell Potter, who retired as CIGNA's vice president of corporate communications last year. He spent nearly 15 years at the company and four years at Humana."

"Potter, for instance, recalled a trip on a corporate jet from Philadelphia, where CIGNA is headquartered, to Connecticut, where the company's health insurance business is based in Bloomfield. During the flight, he was served lunch on gold-rimmed china with a gold-plated knife and fork.

"I realized for the first time that someone's insurance premiums were paying for me to travel in such luxury," he said on his blog."

"He condemned insurers' efforts to get rid of unprofitable customers, sell policies that can mislead consumers and offer very limited coverage, and pay out as small a portion of premiums as possible for claims in order to boost profits and please Wall Street."

"Potter described in written testimony how insurers use "purging" — unrealistic rate increases — to drive off less profitable employers. Citing a USA Today report, he recalled how CIGNA boosted rates in 2006 for the Entertainment Industry Group Insurance Trust so much that for some family plans, premiums would have topped $44,000 a year."

"CIGNA, responding to Potter's testimony, said Wednesday, "Although we respect that there are different opinions on the solutions, we strongly disagree with the suggestion that, motivated by profits, the insurance industry has deliberately attempted to confuse or unfairly treat covered individuals.""

http://www.courant.com/business/hc-cigna-potter.artjun25,0,4107201.story


"Among the other testimony heard by the Committee on Commerce, Science and Transportation was that of Robin Beaton. It reflected some of the insurance company tactics condemned by Potter.

It was a nightmare scenario. The day before she was scheduled to undergo a double mastectomy for invasive breast cancer, Robin Beaton's health insurance company informed her that she was "red flagged" and they wouldn't pay for her surgery. The hospital wanted a $30,000 deposit before they would move forward. Beaton had no choice but to forgo the life-saving surgery.

Beaton had dutifully signed up for individual insurance when she retired from nursing to start a small business. She had never missed a payment, but that didn't matter. Blue Cross cited two earlier, unrelated conditions that she hadn't reported to them when signing up — acne and a fast beating heart — and rescinded her policy.

Beaton pleaded with the company and had her doctors write letters on her behalf to no avail. It was not until Rep. Joe Barton (R-TX) personally called Blue Cross that her policy was reinstated and she could undergo surgery. In that year, Beaton's tumor doubled in size, leading to further complications necessitating the removal of her lymph glands as well."


http://www.pbs.org/moyers/journal/07102009/profile.html
 

blackangst1

Lifer
Feb 23, 2005
22,902
2,360
126
I understand why it is your worst fear that the health insurance sector is removed. After years of record profits, while denying coverage, denying care, raising prices, and covering less people... they need to be treasured and saved from the government. Health insurances, and all corporations, are more important than the lives of American citizens. Profits and money are american.. not its people.

Matter of fact, insurance companies are far more efficient than foreign countries.. we pay more and get much less.

Very logical. Not insane.

Would you like for me to return with a wall o'links with identical examples from Medicare? WTF is your point? I happen to agree with healthcare for profit, especially when the margin is <10&#37;.
 

TruePaige

Diamond Member
Oct 22, 2006
9,874
2
0
Would you like for me to return with a wall o'links with identical examples from Medicare? WTF is your point? I happen to agree with healthcare for profit, especially when the margin is <10%.

Profit margins are irrelevant.

They could up their executive and employee compensation even more and get >1% profit margin, but everyone involved would be making out like bandits and being significantly overpaid.

If I ran a hospital and made less than 1% profit but paid the administration 400 million dollars a year, I'd still be operating at a very low profit margin, but everyone would still be getting overpaid at the expense of the people who need treatment.
 

blackangst1

Lifer
Feb 23, 2005
22,902
2,360
126
Profit margins are irrelevant.

They could up their executive and employee compensation even more and get >1% profit margin, but everyone involved would be making out like bandits and being significantly overpaid.

If I ran a hospital and made less than 1% profit but paid the administration 400 million dollars a year, I'd still be operating at a very low profit margin, but everyone would still be getting overpaid at the expense of the people who need treatment.

Touche. But, sadly for your argument, salaries make up such a small percentage of overall expenses.
 

Hayabusa Rider

Admin Emeritus & Elite Member
Jan 26, 2000
50,879
4,268
126
Profit margins are irrelevant.

They could up their executive and employee compensation even more and get >1% profit margin, but everyone involved would be making out like bandits and being significantly overpaid.

If I ran a hospital and made less than 1% profit but paid the administration 400 million dollars a year, I'd still be operating at a very low profit margin, but everyone would still be getting overpaid at the expense of the people who need treatment.

And if the next year there's a loss? No financial reserves, no money for remodeling, new equipment, staff. Nothing. They are dead and closed.


Now why should anyone spend a decade of their life to be your martyr? Scrub toilets. It will earn you more respect.