Havoc in Kiev: Snipers fire on protesters/opposition (NSFW)

[iGas]

and the russians are the ones who moved people into there. crimea is not considered part of russia

I completely agree that the Russian deliberately moved their people into Crimera to displaced the populous there. However, you can't blame the Russian from learning from the European who moved their people into America and displaced the native.

IMHO, the Russian migrated to Crimera and are there to stay just as the European in America, or the Israelis in the Mideast.

 

[ThatsABigOne]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Inu_-0dcSU
These are the Western Ukrainian nationalists (the guys flying red and black flags) who are running the show now because they are the ones providing the muscle behind the revolution. They are considered fascist and absolutely despised in the East.
If the new government is in any way associated with these guys, it will not be accepted in the east and the south of the country. But these guys have the power to destabilize and overthrow any new government, so the new government won't be able to marginalize them. Which means the threat of a split in Ukraine is very real.

Very true. It is not all up to the nationalist movement to receive blame. The strong Russian-favored east is attacking protesters by having drive by shootings and beatings. I find it disturbing that some people are willing to protect lenin statues, like this one in Zaporozhye.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gnq2kHnt_WA&feature=youtu.be

And the Belorusian opposition flag during first 3 seconds in video stands strong!:wub:

 

[iGas]

It is pathetic that Russians(Slavs) consider Russians, Ukrainians and Belorussians as same people. This type of thinking will bite them hard when they will realize, after repeated attempts, that Ukraine and Belarus have no interest to be under the umbrella of Russia.

How can we teach our kids if the adults can't play nice with each others?

 

[Nintendesert]

Very true. It is not all up to the nationalist movement to receive blame. The strong Russian-favored east is attacking protesters by having drive by shootings and beatings. I find it disturbing that some people are willing to protect lenin statues, like this one in Zaporozhye.

And the Belorusian opposition flag during first 3 seconds in video stands strong!:wub:

I don't find it that surprising about the statue, I think the old Soviet Union gets a big pass by history and the world for the crimes it committed against neighboring peoples and their own people. There really hasn't been such a widespread and more murderous regime than the old Soviet communists, but for whatever reasons you'll see their faces on Tshirts across American campuses and hardly see Stalin compared to Hitler though Stalin exceeded him in every way.

There's a certain romanticism about the old Soviet Union and it's unfortunate as so many millions died and suffered due to it.

 

[norseamd]

what is the problem about lenin compared to stalin. not saying he was a saint but he was not that bad compared to other dictators. actually lenin was more of a leaders of communists than a dictator like stalin. that said that does not mean those people guarding the statue are anything like lenin

 

[norseamd]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Inu_-0dcSU These are the Western Ukrainian nationalists (the guys flying red and black flags) who are running the show now because they are the ones providing the muscle behind the revolution. They are considered fascist and absolutely despised in the East. If the new government is in any way associated with these guys, it will not be accepted in the east and the south of the country. But these guys have the power to destabilize and overthrow any new government, so the new government won't be able to marginalize them. Which means the threat of a split in Ukraine is very real.

what is your opinion on what has happened in ukraine

 

[ThatsABigOne]

what is the problem about lenin compared to stalin. not saying he was a saint but he was not tht bad compared to other dictators. actually lenin was more of a leaders of communists than a dictator like stalin. that said that does not mean those people guarding the statue are anything like lenin

It is a common excuse to say that Lenin wasn't as bad and that's because he did not live long enough for the world to see how he would implement his dictatorship.

 

[norseamd]

do you know how he was?

he was well known to have written warning letters about stalin.

ever heard about this

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Menshevism

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fyodor_Dan

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Julius_Martov

 

[theeedude]

Very true. It is not all up to the nationalist movement to receive blame. The strong Russian-favored east is attacking protesters by having drive by shootings and beatings. I find it disturbing that some people are willing to protect lenin statues, like this one in Zaporozhye.

And the Belorusian opposition flag during first 3 seconds in video stands strong!:wub:

It's disturbing to you that people stand up to vandalism?
It's like if some liberals from San Francisco went to South Carolina and attacked Confederate monuments. The locals may not agree with everything the Confederacy stood for, but it's their history, and they would defend it, and kick some butt if necessary to do so.
Plus it's an assault on democracy. If you want Lenin statue removed, bring it up to a vote in city council, and let the people's elected representatives decide. Don't impose your will on the whole city by destroying monuments like a thug. Or you only believe in democracy when you agree with it? Then you are no better than Lukashenko.

 

[ThatsABigOne]

It's disturbing to you that people stand up to vandalism?
It's like if some liberals from San Francisco went to South Carolina and attacked Confederate monuments. The locals may not agree with everything the Confederacy stood for, but it's their history, and they would defend it, and kick some butt if necessary to do so.
Plus it's an assault on democracy. If you want Lenin statue removed, bring it up to a vote in city council, and let the people's elected representatives decide. Don't impose your will on the whole city by destroying monuments like a thug. Or you only believe in democracy when you agree with it? Then you are no better than Lukashenko.

Pardon me, but I would refuse to arrest those who would disagree with me.

 

[ThatsABigOne]

do you know how he was?

he was well known to have written warning letters about stalin.

ever heard about this

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Menshevism

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fyodor_Dan

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Julius_Martov

I know a lot about it. In other words, it is a big giant mess.

 

[Jaskalas]

So what is the Russian response? I'd be pleasantly surprised if they do not interfere and dictate the outcome of their neighbor.

 

[theeedude]

Pardon me, but I would refuse to arrest those who would disagree with me.

That's what they all say before they get into power. If someone thinks that they have a right to decide for millions of citizens of other cities what statues they shouldn't have, that is probably not the end of the list of things they think they have a right to decide for others. If you don't like statue of Lenin, fine, bring it up to a city council meeting and have a vote on it. But these thugs don't want a vote, they want to impose their will. I am sure they are fine people who respect diversity of opinion.

 

[theeedude]

So what is the Russian response? I'd be pleasantly surprised if they do not interfere and dictate the outcome of their neighbor.

This is Sevastopol, in the Crimea:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sJDLhqKqXbo

This is Kharkiv, second largest city in Ukraine:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ebbfkKCjHmE

Odessa:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YKvmknPiB-U

What's the new Ukrainian government's response? Bring in NATO peacekeepers? :biggrin:
If Western Ukrainian "protesters" think they can come in, occupy government buildings, destroy statues, and dictate things in the east, they are going to split the country, and Russia won't have to lift a finger to do it.

 

[AViking]

Been to Russia and still don't understand why they like Lenin. The guy was horrible. I get the impression that they think he wasn't that bad since they compare him to Stalin. I think people like to ignore that he was responsible for killing tens of thousands of people in summary executions. Yeah he wasn't as bad as Stalin, not even close, but the guy killed tons of people. Guys like Franco, the Assads, Mugabe, Castro, and Lenin all killed about the same amount of people and nobody says they're good guys except the Russians who like Lenin. Confuses me.

 

[K1052]

So what is the Russian response? I'd be pleasantly surprised if they do not interfere and dictate the outcome of their neighbor.

Putin forcing the realignment to Russia got it to this stage in the first place. Maybe he assumed that it wouldn't go this far and even if so that annexation of the Crimea would be the consolation prize. It is still a major blow for Russia's foreign policy to realign neighboring nations back to them and away from Europe. This obsession with rebuilding (at all costs) Russia's regional power with satellite sates who answer to Moscow is pretty foolhardy.

 

[norseamd]

This is Sevastopol, in the Crimea: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sJDLhqKqXbo This is Kharkiv, second largest city in Ukraine: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ebbfkKCjHmE Odessa: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YKvmknPiB-U

so were they too poor to afford a ticket back to russia in 1990 or something?

they must be real patriots if they decided to stay in a country that declared that it is not russia and is not subserviant to it anymore.

Not speaking on behalf of any company

what about the russian ukrainians

you seem to be taking their side in every fight and denouncing every thought and action by the ukrainians

 

[norseamd]

Been to Russia and still don't understand why they like Lenin. The guy was horrible. I get the impression that they think he wasn't that bad since they compare him to Stalin. I think people like to ignore that he was responsible for killing tens of thousands of people in summary executions. Yeah he wasn't as bad as Stalin, not even close, but the guy killed tons of people. Guys like Franco, the Assads, Mugabe, Castro, and Lenin all killed about the same amount of people and nobody says they're good guys except the Russians who like Lenin. Confuses me.

not a expert on early 20th century history or communism history. but lenin did seem like he was dedicated to the communism cause unlike stalin. my understanding is that lenin would likely be willing to do whatever it takes to the enemies of communism for the cause of communism.

do you have any good knowledge or links.

 

[theeedude]

so were they too poor to afford a ticket back to russia in 1990 or something?

they must be real patriots if they decided to stay in a country that declared that it is not russia and is not subserviant to it anymore.



what about the russian ukrainians

you seem to be taking their side in every fight and denouncing every thought and action by the ukrainians

Why should they leave their homes? If someone comes into your home and disrespects you, destroys your property, and takes over your living room, you should be the one to leave? If Ukrainian government doesn't represent or respect their areas, they can separate from Ukraine. Kosovo Albanians didn't have to leave Kosovo for Albania, they separated, and the West recognized their right to do so. That has set every precedent that is needed here, should the eastern Ukraine regions decide to separate. They haven't decided it yet, but the new government in Kiev is working very hard on that, sending thugs to vandalize their monuments and sack local government buildings, and basically piss off everyone they can as quickly as possible. I am not denouncing every action, they have a right to protest, they don't have a right to destroy and vandalize things that aren't theirs. If the guys in Kiev had half a brain, they would call their thugs back from the east and negotiate an agreement that maintains their national unity. But it's their responsibility to do so, not the regions responsibility to put up with what's happening now.

 

[norseamd]

Why should they leave their homes? If someone comes into your home and disrespects you, destroys your property, and takes over your living room, you should be the one to leave? If Ukrainian government doesn't represent or respect their areas, they can separate from Ukraine. Kosovo Albanians didn't have to leave Kosovo for Albania, they separated, and the West recognized their right to do so. That has set every precedent that is needed here, should the eastern Ukraine regions decide to separate. They haven't decided it yet, but the new government in Kiev is working very hard on that, sending thugs to vandalize their monuments and sack local government buildings, and basically piss off everyone they can as quickly as possible. I am not denouncing every action, they have a right to protest, they don't have a right to destroy and vandalize things that aren't theirs. If the guys in Kiev had half a brain, they would call their thugs back from the east and negotiate an agreement that maintains their national unity. But it's their responsibility to do so, not the regions responsibility to put up with what's happening now.

links on pro western ukrainian thugs going out to the russian inhabited areas

so you are saying that the homes of these people are more important to them than their heritage or loyalty

 

[theeedude]

links on pro western ukrainian thugs going out to the russian inhabited areas

They seized the county office in Kharkiv, are refusing to leave, and tried to tear down the Lenin statue. This is not helping their cause if they want to preserve Ukrainian unity. Not going to happen by force. If they try, it will provoke a conflict, and then Russia will step in as a "peacekeeper" to protect civilians. As I said, Kosovo has created every precedent needed for the current scenario.

so you are saying that the homes of these people are more important to them than their heritage or loyalty

It's their land, it's their heritage too. Yes, their homes are more important to them than "loyalty" to some thugs from Kiev who disrespect them in their own house.

 

[norseamd]

They seized the county office in Kharkiv, are refusing to leave, and tried to tear down the Lenin statue. This is not helping their cause if they want to preserve Ukrainian unity. Not going to happen by force. If they try, it will provoke a conflict, and then Russia will step in as a "peacekeeper" to protect civilians. As I said, Kosovo has created every precedent needed for the current scenario.

if this was to liberate tymshenko then i do not complain. tymshenko is not a saint but as far as things has gone since 2010 they might as well see where she goes in the revoluiotn and post lukachenko ukraine. otherwise they have no need to do that when the are is populated with russians they have western and central ukraine free for noew so they should be content and start to think about what to do next

It's their land, it's their heritage too. Yes, their homes are more important to them than "loyalty" to some thugs from Kiev who disrespect them in their own house.

loyalty to russia

did you miss what i put up earlier

so were they too poor to afford a ticket back to russia in 1990 or something?

the fact is when ukraine became independet they should have realized that somehow it might actually have now been a different country and they should have moved back to russia if they thought they were russian instead of valueing their homes more than their heritage or loyalty.

 

[theeedude]

if this was to liberate tymshenko then i do not complain. tymshenko is not a saint but as far as things has gone since 2010 they might as well see where she goes in the revoluiotn and post lukachenko ukraine. otherwise they have no need to do that when the are is populated with russians they have western and central ukraine free for noew so they should be content and start to think about what to do next

This was after Tymoshenko was freeed. Lukashenko is in Belarus, not Ukraine.

loyalty to russia
did you miss what i put up earlier
the fact is when ukraine became independet they should have realized that somehow it might actually have now been a different country and they should have moved back to russia if they thought they were russian instead of valueing their homes more than their heritage or loyalty.

Moved back to Russia? They didn't move there from Russia, they were born there. These are historically Russian areas. So no one is moving anywhere, except maybe Ukrainian national boundary, if the people in Kiev keep pissing off the people in the east.

 

[norseamd]

Moved back to Russia? They didn't move there from Russia, they were born there. These are historically Russian areas. So no one is moving anywhere, except maybe Ukrainian national boundary, if the people in Kiev keep pissing off the people in the east.

and they are dealing with the ukrainian governement for 20 years. more and more it just seems to me that russians are a incredably ignorant lot. just like a lot of americans. they could have moved to russia back in 1990. that fact of the matter is that they chose to live in ukraine for 20 years and that means that they likely do not care that much about being russian. they are making a huge demonstration because it is easy to do and that they ingrained with the society around them and they do not put much effort into thought. not that it requires much to not be incredably ignorant. in fact i would say it requires more energy to be ignorant. there is not going to be much sympathy for the russians in ukraine from around the wrold. whether or not they are feeling russian they are supporting a corrupt regime and the corruption and bigotry that goes with it and we can blame them for that.

not that i am supporting the west or russians over the other but the pro lukachenko faction does have some things to blame. if i were leader of ukraine i probably would have tried to balance myself between the west and russia like it seems that tymashenko did. the west has caused more than enough problems around the world with imperialism and so has the russian state.

 

[theeedude]

and they are dealing with the ukrainian governement for 20 years. more and more it just seems to me that russians are a incredably ignorant lot. just like a lot of americans. they could have moved to russia back in 1990. that fact of the matter is that they chose to live in ukraine for 20 years and that means that they likely do not care that much about being russian. they are making a huge demonstration because it is easy to do and that they ingrained with the society around them and they do not put much effort into thought. not that it requires much to not be incredably ignorant. in fact i would say it requires more energy to be ignorant. there is not going to be much sympathy for the russians in ukraine from around the wrold. whether or not they are feeling russian they are supporting a corrupt regime and the corruption and bigotry that goes with it and we can blame them for that.

That's the point, they were DEALING with the Ukrainian government. The new guys in charge in Kiev aren't interested in dealing, they are interested in going in, seizing buildings, and imposing their will on the east.
I think they know their regions won't get sympathy or recognition in a western Ukraine or it's supporters. That is precisely why they may decide to separate and go with Russia. They may even be OK to stay in Ukraine in join the EU, but not if they are treated as second class citizens, where their language and culture is disrespected, and that is what's happening now. The previous pro-European regime was just as corrupt, and the new one is not even in charge of their own sub-groups, much less the whole country. I think the in Kiev know that going in destroying things and occupying local government buildings is not the way to keep the country together. But they aren't in charge of the far right fractions doing it, and they know if they try to stop them, they themselves will be attacked. The inmates are running the asylum.

not that i am supporting the west or russians over the other but the pro lukachenko faction does have some things to blame. if i were leader of ukraine i probably would have tried to balance myself between the west and russia like it seems that tymashenko did. the west has caused more than enough problems around the world with imperialism and so has the russian state.

Dude, for the second time, Lukashenko is in Belarus, not Ukraine. Get your shenko's straight