Havoc in Kiev: Snipers fire on protesters/opposition (NSFW)

[Jaskalas]

Putin asked parliament Saturday for permission to use the country's military in Ukraine

Ukraine: 6,000 Russian Soldiers Already Crossed Border...

Full on military invasion / control now. Thus far the reports are limited to Crimea. Though there are certainly more Russian inhabited provinces to take. With Russia seizing Crimea the other provinces might even start protests and defect over to Russia.

Borders have been changed this year. At this point it's only a question of how much of Ukraine is taken.

 

[fskimospy]

Although I haven't read the entire thread, in case nobody has linked Putin's op-ed about Syria yet someone should in case there's any question of what a hypocritical scumbag this guy is. At this point it seems clear that the US and Europe are going to need to start implementing a larger scale plan to stop Russia's repeated attacks on their neighbors.

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/09/12/opinion/putin-plea-for-caution-from-russia-on-syria.html?_r=0

Oh, and for posterity's sake the ATPN article on Putin's op-ed.

http://forums.anandtech.com/showthread.php?t=2342146

 

[Braznor]

Seems like a prelude to a world war.

 

[michal1980]

Putin asked parliament Saturday for permission to use the country's military in Ukraine

Ukraine: 6,000 Russian Soldiers Already Crossed Border...

Full on military invasion / control now. Thus far the reports are limited to Crimea. Though there are certainly more Russian inhabited provinces to take. With Russia seizing Crimea the other provinces might even start protests and defect over to Russia.

Borders have been changed this year. At this point it's only a question of how much of Ukraine is taken.

so Russia kicked out the natives. Then gave the region back, but now populated by Russians, and is now once again taking it back.


maybe Obama needs to just reset things again

maybe this time, they'll ask Putin to 'Put back that wall'

 

[gevorg]

Although I haven't read the entire thread, in case nobody has linked Putin's op-ed about Syria yet someone should in case there's any question of what a hypocritical scumbag this guy is.

You have no idea what you talking about by comparing Syria to Ukraine. Maybe you should read the thread. Syria is not home to millions of Americans, and has no century old common history with US. Syria is on the other side of the planet for US, just another "brown" state to bomb for geopolitical interests.

Although every crisis is different, Kosovo War and breakup of Yugoslavia is a more appropriate comparison to the current situation in Ukraine.

 

[fskimospy]

You have no idea what you talking about by comparing Syria to Ukraine. Maybe you should read the thread. Syria is not home to millions of Americans, and has no century old common history with US. Syria is on the other side of the planet for US, just another "brown" state to bomb for geopolitical interests.

Although every crisis is different, Kosovo War and breakup of Yugoslavia is a more appropriate comparison to the current situation in Ukraine.

Your response is predictable. Having a shared history is not a pretext for invasion. Russia is unquestionably violating international law by invading its sovereign neighbor. Russia has done this repeatedly in recent years and I find it unlikely that they will stop after this.

While we aren't going to go to war with Russia over this aggression I think it is time that we begin a forward deployment of NATO troops into Poland and any other country neighboring Russia that wants them.

The price we should make Russia pay for its bad behavior here is reminding them that in international terms their military is weak, and from now on he will have a real military breathing down his neck.

 

[gevorg]

Your response is predictable. Having a shared history is not a pretext for invasion. Russia is unquestionably violating international law by invading its sovereign neighbor. Russia has done this repeatedly in recent years and I find it unlikely that they will stop after this.

While we aren't going to go to war with Russia over this aggression I think it is time that we begin a forward deployment of NATO troops into Poland and any other country neighboring Russia that wants them.

The price we should make Russia pay for its bad behavior here is reminding them that in international terms their military is weak, and from now on he will have a real military breathing down his neck.

and this is how Cuban missile crisis happens...

 

[fskimospy]

and this is how Cuban missile crisis happens...

If you have alternative means for addressing a violent, repressive dictator's repeated attacks on neighboring countries that would be more effective at deterring future aggression I'm open to other ideas.

 

[gevorg]

If you have alternative means for addressing a violent, repressive dictator's repeated attacks on neighboring countries that would be more effective at deterring future aggression I'm open to other ideas.

Just another delusional comparison if you think that Putin is a "dictator". Most Russians would laugh you off. And Putin can't hold a candle to violent US/NATO invasions around the world for the two decades or so.

 

[K1052]

Your response is predictable. Having a shared history is not a pretext for invasion. Russia is unquestionably violating international law by invading its sovereign neighbor. Russia has done this repeatedly in recent years and I find it unlikely that they will stop after this.

While we aren't going to go to war with Russia over this aggression I think it is time that we begin a forward deployment of NATO troops into Poland and any other country neighboring Russia that wants them.

The price we should make Russia pay for its bad behavior here is reminding them that in international terms their military is weak, and from now on he will have a real military breathing down his neck.

Russia is already pretty much surrounded by NATO countries now. I'd be in favor of expedited membership for Georgia and the few other countries still waiting. Close legacy bases in Europe and US shift resources to NATO bases in Poland and other Eastern European countries. Make further regional aggression have real consequences.

 

[michal1980]

If you have alternative means for addressing a violent, repressive dictator's repeated attacks on neighboring countries that would be more effective at deterring future aggression I'm open to other ideas.

your fucking pussy president canceled a missile defense system to help relations with Russia

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/03/17/w...cels-missile-defense-russia-opposed.html?_r=0

how many times has he also downsized the missile defense system that was going into Poland to appease Putin?


All this appeasement has gained the united states what exactly?

Putin has been fucking Obama for years. Obama may finally be waking up. Raped and beaten.

 

[fskimospy]

Just another delusional comparison if you think that Putin is a "dictator". Most Russians would laugh you off. And Putin can't hold a candle to violent US/NATO invasions around the world for the two decades or so.

Lol. Whatever you need to tell yourself. Go ask the people in prison for the crime of protesting against Putin what they think about his effective lifetime presidency.

While I appreciate your "two wrongs make a right" style of argument, I was asking for a way to effectively contain Russian aggression. Did you have one? Or wait, maybe your next post is about how this isn't aggression at all.

 

[fskimospy]

your fucking pussy president canceled a missile defense system to help relations with Russia

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/03/17/w...cels-missile-defense-russia-opposed.html?_r=0

how many times has he also downsized the missile defense system that was going into Poland to appease Putin?


All this appeasement has gained the united states what exactly?

Putin has been fucking Obama for years. Obama may finally be waking up. Raped and beaten.

The missile defense system was useless. It also would have changed nothing here.

Dumbass.

 

[michal1980]

The missile defense system was useless. It also would have changed nothing here.

Dumbass.

the only dumbass here is you. so far up Obama's dumbass that your now feeling putins cock.


The point, that once again flew over your head, like anything that might look bad for your dear leader.

Is that Obama folded/appeased Putin by removing the defense shield that putin didn't want.

And what did Obama get for that? Is the relationship any better? Is Putin holding back to help the relationship?

And now you want your Obama to increase our presence in eastern Europe? LOL LMAO. you are more fucked in the head then moonbeam.

 

[JEDIYoda]

Just another delusional comparison if you think that Putin is a "dictator". Most Russians would laugh you off. And Putin can't hold a candle to violent US/NATO invasions around the world for the two decades or so.

actually that's not true at all....our definition of dictator is drastically different than most Russians definition. BTW -- Just for your information before you start with this most stuff....
I speak Polish and I speak Russian and I have friends in the Ukraine who told me and I posted in another thread that the Russians were already in the Ukraine.....so I think that lends some credibility two my telling you there ids a drastic difference in the meaning of the word -- dictator by Russians and Americans...

 

[JEDIYoda]

The point, that once again flew over your head, like anything that might look bad for your dear leader.

Is that Obama folded/appeased Putin by removing the defense shield that putin didn't want.

And what did Obama get for that? Is the relationship any better? Is Putin holding back to help the relationship?

And now you want your Obama to increase our presence in eastern Europe? LOL LMAO. you are more fucked in the head then moonbeam.

Truth be told Obama did not fold. His decision was wise and prudent. Why? Because the very actions the Russian have taken in the Ukraine basically solidify the fact that in their backyard nobody not even NATO could have stepped in. Secondly -- had there been a NATO presence in the Ukraine this very well might not have happened at least in the manner that it did happen.

Then again -- Russia has never seriously let the Ukraine out of the fold of their influence...

 

[michal1980]

Truth be told Obama did not fold. His decision was wise and prudent. Why? Because the very actions the Russian have taken in the Ukraine basically solidify the fact that in their backyard nobody not even NATO could have stepped in. Secondly -- had there been a NATO presence in the Ukraine this very well might not have happened at least in the manner that it did happen.

Then again -- Russia has never seriously let the Ukraine out of the fold of their influence...

So how much eastern Europe are you willing to give back to Russia?


To add to that.

This is partially happening because Obama folded. Putin saw the weakness, just like when Obama drew his red line. Obama is leaving the world stage, and causing a power vacuum to happen. Putin is just filling the void.

 

[cyclohexane]

So how much eastern Europe are you willing to give back to Russia?

All of it. Not our problem. If you want to help, feel free to book a ticket to Kiev and fight the Russians.

My tax dollars and not paying for the US army to police other asshole countries.

 

[michal1980]

All of it. Not our problem. If you want to help, feel free to book a ticket to Kiev and fight the Russians.

My tax dollars and not paying for the US army to police other asshole countries.

good good. continue channeling that inner Chamberlin.

 

[Fern]

Russia will not invade Ukraine.
-snip-
Russia doesn't need to invade Crimea, the pro Russian locals already occupy it. -snip-

Well, for a little while you actually sounded like you knew what you were talking about.

Even though this fits loosely with my 'prediction' in post in post #161, I'm surprised Putin is doing this in such a 'naked' way.

IMO, that's a bad sign: He doesn't feel constrained. I thought he'd at least look for some plausible pretext.

Fern

 

[Fern]

Your response is predictable. Having a shared history is not a pretext for invasion. Russia is unquestionably violating international law by invading its sovereign neighbor. Russia has done this repeatedly in recent years and I find it unlikely that they will stop after this.

While we aren't going to go to war with Russia over this aggression I think it is time that we begin a forward deployment of NATO troops into Poland and any other country neighboring Russia that wants them.

The price we should make Russia pay for its bad behavior here is reminding them that in international terms their military is weak, and from now on he will have a real military breathing down his neck.

A forward deployment of NATO troops is an interesting idea, even more so because it comes from you.

Coming on the heels of the Obama admin's announcement that they want to cut 60,000 - 80,000 troops a troop deployment to Eastern Europe would be more than ironic.

I'll be surprised if Obama does anything other than spout some 'bluster'. I don't see him sending troops anywhere.

Fern

 

[Fern]

-snip-

This is partially happening because Obama folded. Putin saw the weakness, just like when Obama drew his red line. Obama is leaving the world stage, and causing a power vacuum to happen. Putin is just filling the void.

Yep, and as many feared/predicted.

Obama has been disinterested, detached and feckless as far as foreign policy. When he has been forced to focus on it (e.g., Libya) he's been a notorious procrastinator.

Yep, when he announced his policy of "lead from behind" (a laughably absurd phrase) he signaled his withdrawal of leadership. It did not go unnoticed and other are capitalizing on that void; this is an example.

His blundering about on Syria was comic to many, but the British's F/U to him was mighty telling; he's become a real life Rodney Dangerfield.

There's nothing he can really do now. He voluntarily climbed down off the peak and they're not going let him back up. He'd have to go bat shiz crazy and attack to get any gravitas.

Otherwise, what's he going to do? Start a Cold War with sanctions etc? Russia is selling gas, good luck with that. It's not like the countries buying Russian gas have a better place to get it from.

Speaking of gas etc, Japan's probably crapping a brick hoping China doesn't now move in and seize the Senkaku Islands for its' gas/oil deposits. If China does move in what are Japan's allies/we going to do?

Fern

 

[Fern]

All of it. Not our problem. If you want to help, feel free to book a ticket to Kiev and fight the Russians.

My tax dollars and not paying for the US army to police other asshole countries.

Never heard of 'global business' and 'interconnected markets' markets, huh?

Yeah, isolationism worked pretty well before, at least up to about 1939 or so.

Fern

 

[fskimospy]

A forward deployment of NATO troops is an interesting idea, even more so because it comes from you.

Coming on the heels of the Obama admin's announcement that they want to cut 60,000 - 80,000 troops a troop deployment to Eastern Europe would be more than ironic.

I'll be surprised if Obama does anything other than spout some 'bluster'. I don't see him sending troops anywhere.

Fern

Why is that strange coming from me? Russia would not dare mess with NATO, especially with US troops involved. The numbers are nearly meaningless. If I were any country in Eastern Europe that was not already NATO aligned I would just be wondering at this point when Russia was coming after me.

To me the way you make Russia pay for their aggression is by hemming them in as we aren't going to war over this. They would hate having NATO extend further though.

As to the US military's ability to do this, that is well within our capacity. I'm not sure if you realize just how massive our armed forces are, but a redeployment to Eastern Europe is well within our capabilities even while bringing our military spending into some sort of rational control.

 

[fskimospy]

Yep, and as many feared/predicted.

Obama has been disinterested, detached and feckless as far as foreign policy. When he has been forced to focus on it (e.g., Libya) he's been a notorious procrastinator.

Yep, when he announced his policy of "lead from behind" (a laughably absurd phrase) he signaled his withdrawal of leadership. It did not go unnoticed and other are capitalizing on that void; this is an example.

His blundering about on Syria was comic to many, but the British's F/U to him was mighty telling; he's become a real life Rodney Dangerfield.

There's nothing he can really do now. He voluntarily climbed down off the peak and they're not going let him back up. He'd have to go bat shiz crazy and attack to get any gravitas.

Otherwise, what's he going to do? Start a Cold War with sanctions etc? Russia is selling gas, good luck with that. It's not like the countries buying Russian gas have a better place to get it from.

Speaking of gas etc, Japan's probably crapping a brick hoping China doesn't now move in and seize the Senkaku Islands for its' gas/oil deposits. If China does move in what are Japan's allies/we going to do?

Fern

What are you basing this on? This is just extreme right wing partisanship. Can you provide a credible source that shares these opinions?