Have you gained new insight into the members of this forums?

[NesuD]

<< And, yeah, you are a twit. Get off your "you're not from the US, so your opinion doesn't matter" pedestal. This event affected more than just your citizens, fool. >>


I never said if you weren't from the US your opinion doesn't matter I was saying if you go back and read it that you don't have the right to judge our reactions to what was perpetrated against us until you have been the recipient of similar treatment. I personally value your opinions but i think that your condemning anyone who makes a negative statement in reference to those percieved as responsible (Arab Muslims) is a kneejerk reaction just as their statements are a kneejerk reaction. Just as i look back at my posts here and see that some of my statements are a kneejerk reaction as are yours. People were and are shocked to their very core by what has been done to us. One way of dealing with that shock is to lash out at our perceived antagonist. With time clearer heads will prevail and the correct action will be taken. Do not condemn those that in their pain and shock made regrettable statements. Be understanding and patient with them until they can get a firmer grip on themselves. I would venture to say the only insight gained with respect to the members of this forum is the realization that we are all human with human imperfections.

P.S. The fact that you stoop to childish name calling in your posts is an indicator of your immaturity I would suggest that you reread your own statements here as I have mine and give some thought to learning to be a bit more civil in your responses to those who's opinions differ from yours.



<< I have an aunt that lives in NY. OUR FAMILY HAS NOT BEEN ABLE TO CONTACT HER. My immediate family lives in LA. And, you're telling me to refrain judgement? >>


As this is the only question that i can find that you directed at me I thought i did answer it. Let me make it a little clearer. Yes I am telling you to refrain from judgement for the reasons I have stated above.

 

[clarkmo]

<< Hmmm.Perhaps we could envite a terrorist to a tailgate party and use the occasion to listen to there side and expose them to our way of thinking. That should work,huh? >>


Elledan, the above is a specific plan of action. A sucky one too, but specific! That's waht I was hoping to read, not rusty boxes and hinges and stuff, nice analogy and perhaps meant to provide inspiration to others (see above for results) but not a plan. So far, military action, bombing, invasion and occupation seem to be the best plan I've heard (That's my idea of what we are going to do) and it is SPECIFIC!

 

[hungrypete]

Some of you talk to much. That's all you can do is talk, you don't have the balls to do anything. Well, theres a few million Americans who are going to do something, regardless of what your glorious minds think is right or wrong. I've seen some idiots, and Americans realize that bombing civilians isn't the answerhere. On the other hand some of us understand and accept that in every war there will be civilian casualties. This war will be no exception. The US will try to minimize civilian casualties, but it won't be able to prevent them all. Some of you a$$holes think you are so smart that you can second guess the US government, your opinion means nothing, and you can cry all you want, it won't change a thing. I do not condone the murder of citizens of ANY nation, but I FULLY support this military operation AT ANY COST.

 

[Elledan]

<<

<< Hmmm.Perhaps we could envite a terrorist to a tailgate party and use the occasion to listen to there side and expose them to our way of thinking. That should work,huh? >>


Elledan, the above is a specific plan of action. A sucky one too, but specific! That's waht I was hoping to read, not rusty boxes and hinges and stuff, nice analogy and perhaps meant to provide inspiration to others (see above for results) but not a plan. So far, military action, bombing, invasion and occupation seem to be the best plan I've heard (That's my idea of what we are going to do) and it is SPECIFIC! >>

You don't really think we can already decide exactly what should be done, do you?

First thing which must be done is getting more information about the motivation behind those attacks and what turns them against the US. Only then can a long-term plan be realized. A war against those terrorists will be only a temporary solution.

BTW, I noticed that you've trouble with this anology I provided. Maybe you want to think about it a bit more.

 

[clarkmo]

<< First thing which must be done is getting more information about the motivation behind those attacks and what turns them against the US. Only then can a long-term plan be realized. A war against those terrorists will be only a temporary solution. >>


Temporary perhaps but long term. We don't want to see Bin MAdman or his ilk back here for a looong time. As far as motivation, in the eloqueny words of a muslim cleric. in regards to a quesion of can' we all just get along:

<< There cannot be harmony between Jews ? who are usurpers and aggressors, who have oppressed and persecuted others, and who are known for their treachery and corruption throughout the world, historically and in the present age ? and the purely monotheistic Muslim owners of the land >>

.
I have read your analogy but while you're oiling the hinges Bin Laden will be attacking again.

 

[Elledan]

<< I have read your analogy but while you're oiling the hinges Bin Laden will be attacking again. >>

You forget about the alternative: the American army goes to Afghanistan, kicks some major ass and returns home. Next thing you know is that the surviving and many new terrorists will be literally dying to revenge this attack. Like I said, a war against terrorists is just a short-term solution. It's like fighthing the symptoms of a disease. You'll much better concentrate on the disease itself and try to cure it.

 

[clarkmo]

We aren't gonna invade Afghanistan and go home. We are there until we rout out the terrorists. This is a 5-10 year plan. Whatever it takes. We are going to occupy like we occupied Japan and Germany. We haven't heard from them again have we? Like WWII, the enemy is in different nations, all of which are in our itinerary. Our soldiers passports are gonna be so full of visas that they won't even have to use passports. You do get the point, don't you. This isn't a fly by night operation. It is going to be the major part of US foreign activities for at least the next decade in one form or another.

 

[Aihyah]

It's like fighthing the symptoms of a disease. You'll much better concentrate on the disease itself and try to cure it.



ugh, the problem is your dealing with faith, there is no logic to it. We havn't rid the US of white supremists yet, changing their minds isn't a viable solution

 

[Elledan]

Then how about the official Government of Afghanistan? Won't they get their place back?

Anyway, even if the US occupies Afghanistan or whatever country for a decade or longer, there still will be terrorists because the reason(s) why those terrorists want to attack the US are still there.

 

[Syringer]

Seems these recent events really brought out the worst in some people...(such a cliche, don't you agree?)

But it seems the majority of people want revenge so that satisfaction can be achieved. But we all know that revenge is bad because it is self destructive...socially destructive.

 

[Athanasius]

Elledan:

Read my analogy posted at 1:08 p.m. It is not an either/or situation. These particular terrorists may be a symptom, but they are a severe symptom that cannot wait to be treated until the causes can be removed. Continuing the medical analogy, even when doctors know that they are treating symptoms, an immediate response is necessary, sometimes even before the cause is known or before it can be directly addressed.

As far as addressing root causes, the long term key will be the response of the Islamic Community in the world. This brand of extremist Islamic terrorists is a blight upon their own religion. When their leaders refuse to be drawn into supporting it (or ignoring it) through blind religious patriotism, then these extremist groups can be isolated and their support base can be removed.

Better yet, change the terrorist's thinking and the problem solves itself. But there is no evidence that their thinking is about to change. On the contrary, it only gets more extreme. This attack is not based on any recent events. It is not a statement against the Bush presidency, its stance on Kyoto, or any other bable coming from uninformed. This is something that has been planned for years. It was premeditated, ruthless murder on an unthinkable scale. Hence, we are nowhere near solving root causes.

In the meantime, we have severe symptoms that cannot blithely wait to be addressed.

 

[clarkmo]

<< Then how about the official Government of Afghanistan? Won't they get their place back? >>


Who? The Taliban? I don't see why they should but why not, as the situation improves. Or the other group over there who openly supports us. But the point of an occupation is not to rule the nation being occupied but to see that they do it right, posing no further danger to our country. They will govern themselves.


<< Anyway, even if the US occupies Afghanistan or whatever country for a decade or longer, there still will be terrorists because the reason(s) why those terrorists want to attack the US are still there. >>


The reason is Isreal/Palestine. Ironic isn't it, that the treaty which made nations of arab emirates and sheikdoms and made them rich, is the same treaty they're whining about? The idea that Israeli behavior and our support of it is the cause is absurd. It's about greed cloaked by the Koran.

 

[ScottMac]

I believe that if the terrorists are willing to fight and die to the last man, the least we can do is take 'em up on their offer.

If they wanted to discuss and negotiate, chances are someone would have at least listened and perhaps some evolution would bring about some change in what they would consider a desirable direction.

What we are preparing to do is communicate with them in the language that they chose to implement.

It is sad that the governments of the countries that have been supporting international terrorism would put their citizens in harm's way. That was their choice. Perhaps the citizens will let them know how unhappy they are with their leader's decisions.

Probably the best thing to come out of this whole event is that (so far) the vast majority of the global community has declared "Enough," and will track down and remove as many of these criminals as possible....perhaps saving the next generation and generations-to-come the heartbreak of this senseless loss.

That's the way I see it / FWIW.

Scott

 

[Elledan]

<< Elledan:

Read my analogy posted at 1:08 p.m. It is not an either/or situation. These particular terrorists may be a symptom, but they are a severe symptom that cannot wait to be treated until the causes can be removed. Continuing the medical analogy, even when doctors know that they are treating symptoms, an immediate response is necessary, sometimes even before the cause is known or before it can be directly addressed. >>

Agreed.
BTW, I never explicitly stated that a war against terrorists would not be an option. But on the other hand, isn't war exactly what those terrorists want to provoke with those attacks in the US? Isn't the US simply doing exactly what those terrorists expected the US to do? Do they've anything prepared? More attacks?

So many questions, so few answers....



<< << Then how about the official Government of Afghanistan? Won't they get their place back? >>


Who? The Taliban? >>

No, the Northern Alliance, which was the Government of Afghanistan, until the Taliban started a war against them.

 

[Athanasius]

Well, Elledan and I agree on something. I was beginning to doubt whether that would ever happen

 

[Elledan]

<< Well, Elledan and I agree on something. I was beginning to doubt whether that would ever happen >>

Maybe it's because today the planets aligned?

 

[Cyberian]

<< Who? The Taliban? >>

No, the Northern Alliance, which was the Government of Afghanistan, until the Taliban started a war against them.
>>


And before the Northern Alliance?
and before them,
and before them,
and before them?

Who/what is actually the legitimate government of Afghanistan?

 

[clarkmo]

I am actually the rightful heir to the Afghani empire and I welcome all terrorist haters into my country.

 

[Elledan]

<<

<< Who? The Taliban? >>

No, the Northern Alliance, which was the Government of Afghanistan, until the Taliban started a war against them.
>>


And before the Northern Alliance?
and before them,
and before them,
and before them?

Who/what is actually the legitimate government of Afghanistan? >>

Good point. Afghanistan was originally created to avoid conflicts between Russia and the British, a buffer-zone, if you like.

However, since the Northern Alliance is the last legitimate Government of Afghanistan, it would make sense to restore their power.

 

[Brutuskend]

Boy did THIS thread deteriorate to OFF OFF topic or what???

Seems like a lot of them lately just boil down to the same common denominator...........

 

[Siva]

<< I clearly stated what has to be done. If you fail to understand it, go back and read it again.

For your information, even terrorists have a reason for their actions. Take away this reason and the problem is gone.

I would like to point at what happened during WW2. There was only one person in the whole German 'Reich' who was convinced that what he was doing was right, namely Hitler himself. Everyone else only joined his 'game' out of greed, personal gain, through propaganda or by force. If the driving force behind this war (Hitler) would have been isolated from the rest of the people or his grip on this people would somehow been removed, the war would have ended immediately.

Right now we have a similar situation in the US: a few people truly believe in attacking those terrorists, while everyone else who supports those attacks are influenced by propaganda through the media and official channels. The driving force behind this new war might truly believe that what he/they do(es) is the right thing, but that doesn't make it right. The answer on the question who is right - the US or the terrorists - is a short 'both'.

I'm still convinced that a war against those terrorists will take years, be a waste of manpower, resources and will cost many their lives. It'll be about as senseless as the war in Vietnam.

And a final note: there still is absolutely NO EVIDENCE that Bin Laden has anything to do with those attacks. After the Oklahoma bombing in 1995 the same thing happened, with everyone pointing at the Mid-East and running around in circles until they stumbled over the real bomber: McVeigh. Will history repeat itself? >>


Comparing the current attack that the US is planning to Hitler is probably the stupidest and most ignorant thing I have ever heard. Hitler blamed minorities (specifically Jews) for WWI and the decline in Germany and decided to make his country great again by taking over the world and destroying these minorities. On the other hand the US is blaming terrorist attacks on the terrorists, who have been at least linked to Osama Bin Laden, and I'm sure the proof that they worked for him is there. No single attack will be launched before that proof is found. Even if Bin Laden didn't commit this henious act (which I'm sure he did) he has been responsible for hundreds of other deaths, and should have been taken down a long time ago.

As for you alternate solution, that's absolute bullshit. By saying we have to have understanding for the terrorists you imply we have to change our policies for them. Maybe US foreign policies aren't the best (which is a seperate issue altogether) no terrorists act deserves understanding. Over 4000 lives were lost, you don't get someone's attention by killing their people then expect them to have understanding for you. By changing certain policies because of terrorists attacks, that's saying the terrorists are right, the attack was justified. THEY WILL NOT GAIN ANYTHING FROM THEIR ATTACK. Everytime someone wants a change in the world they should just kill thousands of people to get it? NO, the deserve to die, every one of them. Change is made through protest, and rational arguements, militant religous fantics don't want understanding, they want to hurt, they want to kill and cause pain. If they wanted the world to change, there are better ways to do it.

Your ignorance is astounding Elledan. If a dog is begging for scraps at a table, what happens if you feed it? The dog will come back everyday begging for more. You scold the dog once and he won't come back. The terrorists dogs who attacked the US don't understand the reason you call for, they understand death and that's what we'll give them. If there is no one left to retaliate how will these terrorists retaliate for the attacks by the US. I have a theory, its just a theory, that the reason a United States military strike hasn't taken place yet is because they are gathering intelligence on all the major middle eastern terrorists cells and plan on taking them out in one single attack.

I'm surprised at you Elledan, for someone who says that retarded people shouldn't be allowed to live, you seem awfully quick to call for understanding when it comes to mass murder. Maybe its just me, but you seem to get off on opposing the popular view point no matter what it is (yes popular is not always right, but neither is unpopular) and being nothing more than your standard troll with a larger vocabulary and a slightly better way of articulating yourself. Crawl back into your hole, maybe there you could figure out that the US deserves understanding more than terrorists that murder thousands of people. Is it so much harder to understand those calling for retribution for an attack than those who made an unprovoked attack and killed all those people?

 

[Static911]

I learned a great deal from OT. Even if it doesn't align with my views, I respect what ppl have to say and I listen. IF it is a rationale arguement, I listen. IF the person comes off saying "YOU PPL ARE STUPID," most likely or not, that person is not from a educated background or whatnot.

Some of my views have been strengthened and some have been, in one way or another, changed/modified. Thank-you OT

Static911

 

[clarkmo]

Yea, the simple truth that Osalami svcks.

 

[clarkmo]

<< I'm surprised at you Elledan, for someone who says that retarded people shouldn't be allowed to live, you seem awfully quick to call for understanding when it comes to mass murder. Maybe its just me, but you seem to get off on opposing the popular view point no matter what it is (yes popular is not always right, but neither is unpopular) and being nothing more than your standard troll with a larger vocabulary and a slightly better way of articulating yourself. >>


Siva, you noticed that too. Although he isn't all that articulate maybe he's nobly posing as a devil's advocate (lol) but he did generate an excellent post by Athanasius.

 

[derfman]

Anybody remember the original subject of this thread?

My answer: I haven't really learned anything new; posts of the past week have confirmed the juvenile thinking of so many sorry characters who use the AnandTech forums as their stage to pose and threaten and scream and yell as they never could in a real confrontation.

Grow up, some of you! If you're a youngster, that's all right. But learn to discuss and debate and express without ridiculous personal attacks on the others who try to make a point or a statement or a thought-provoking thesis (do you even know what that is?).

The best, well-thought-out, sane, well-stated, properly spelled and composed post in this particular thread came at 10:09 AM today (that's Monday, September 17, 2001--for you who never get out from behind your PC monitors to see the world outside) by a wonderful lady, somewhere, named Colleen. Oh, you lovely Colleen Anne, is your real last name Irish, too? If so, I want to find you and make intelligent, reasoning, human, loving, Irish-surnamed babies with you! OK, even if you're not Irish!

BTW, I hope the Abyss in NY where this dear woman lives is not near Ground Zero in NYC. I don't want her hurt, or terrorized, or unsettled in any way. She's a jewel. And you should listen to HER, instead of yelling at each other.

Now I have to admit, my dear GirlFriday, that I am an old guy--a grandpa--and I'm probably (not "prolly") beyond producing any more offspring. But I love you nonetheless. Oh, also BTW, I'm already married to a Grandma. Is that a turn-off?

Flame me if you will, you kiddies, I'm only at MEMBER status because I lurk here to read your messages. I don't care if you wish me and my ilk gone or dead (that's comin' soon enough at my age) or quiet. I still have my PC. I have my Internet account and my AnandTech ID. I will not go until the Lord calls me (or the US military, but I already served a long time back--I'm a commissioned officer veteran of the early Vietnam era).

Bless you all. In seriousness, I appreciate you and I wish you well. But try to be kinder to each other. Can't we all just get along?