Have you gained new insight into the members of this forums?

[Brutuskend]

<< No actually the United States isn't the same as Canada. While we have a lot in common we are not the same. You are not the express target of a lunatic religious movement. Yes I have seen some overboard expressions of anger here but I find the emotion perfectly understandable considering the magnitude of the crime that was perpetrated against us. I expect much of the out of line commentary will cool somewhat as time passes and we get on with the business crushing the murderous bastards that are responsible for this but in the meantime some of you members of different nationalities should refrain from passing judgment on us. You haven't the right to dictate how we should be feeling at this point in time. >>



Don't you think there were more than a few Canadians killed in this attack as well?
There were people from ALL OVER THE WORLD killed in this attack. It may have happened in OUR country, but in my opinion, this was a attack on all the peace loving people's of THE WORLD!!

That said, everyone has IMO the RIGHT to express how they feel about this. They also have the right, and responsibility (IMO) to help get these low life scum when the time comes!

 

[reitz]

<< Everyone's view point is derived from conventional wisdom. Your viewpoint is similar to that of President Bush who's opinion btw, is the same as 70% of the American public. But this does not mean I will accuse you of being a "loud-mouthed dissenter who can't even think for himself". I only sought your feelings on America turning out to be the next Isreal. I have never seen a positive outcome from taking "precise measures" against terrorism. I lived in India where the govt. tried to tackle the LTTE (Liberation Tigers of Tamil Ellem) attack from the south and the Pakistani militants attacks from the north. The results were not very positive. They continue to kill innocent people and on a personal note, I lost my father who was in the Airforce. I do not have a solution for terrorism because I have yet to see one work. >>

Again, you have offered no alternative solution. Dissent if you like, I won't fault you for that. If you are going to, though, at least offer another course of action. Can you actually think for yourself? So far, you've done nothing to prove otherwise.

 

[j0lly]

<<

<< Everyone's view point is derived from conventional wisdom. Your viewpoint is similar to that of President Bush who's opinion btw, is the same as 70% of the American public. But this does not mean I will accuse you of being a "loud-mouthed dissenter who can't even think for himself". I only sought your feelings on America turning out to be the next Isreal. I have never seen a positive outcome from taking "precise measures" against terrorism. I lived in India where the govt. tried to tackle the LTTE (Liberation Tigers of Tamil Ellem) attack from the south and the Pakistani militants attacks from the north. The results were not very positive. They continue to kill innocent people and on a personal note, I lost my father who was in the Airforce. I do not have a solution for terrorism because I have yet to see one work.

>>

Again, you have offered no alternative solution. Dissent if you like, I won't fault you for that. If you are going to, though, at least offer another course of action. Can you actually think for yourself? So far, you've done nothing to prove otherwise. >>



Can't you read? I said I have no solution to offer twice now. And why do you keep repeating yourself saying that I can't think for myself? Earth is full. Go home.

 

[Aihyah]

Though I can offer no solution (I doubt if there is any), I can say this much. Consider Israel. They thought that targetting specific Palestine targets would reduce terrorism but unfortunately the opposite has occured. Don't you fear the same result for the USA?


its not the same, you can't use them as an example. They have their hands tied, and partially by us. In their last bombing and probably every other, our president came out and warned the israelis to use restraint. The israelis were limited to surgical strkes. funny how the situation has changed, and how our view of "restraint" has also. i'm sure we now see how israel feels.

 

[Moonbeam]

The alternative to hate is not to hate hate.

No, I have gained no new insight into my fellow forum members, the range of opinions is across the anticipated spectrum.

The central question from 9/11 remains what to do about terrorism. If there were an easy answer there would be no terrorists. The critical issue, in my opinion, is to proceed with intelligence fairness and justice as the formost conciderations. It's hard to win a psychological war against the force of truth. Therefore, we will have to take the time to develope a rational and relatively universally supported response to this problem. Cheney, rather prerumptorily, has decided that it's ok to shoot down a plane full of innocent people that's been hijacked and headed for a building. It would be much better for the people on the plane to reach that decission, the people in general. It may be necessary to do something like that universally, to change the prevailing mindset that offers terrorists comfort, our paralysis in the face of the unavoidability of civilian casualties. Maybe it will need to become conditional upon governments that terrorists find no harbor as a condition of staying in business, ie the supporting governments be taken out. It may be necessary to establish a practice of holding any population that refuses to overthrow despotic and terrorist governments out of office as exceptable collateral damage in their removal.

Terrorists are psychopaths who place false ideals human life. Freedom fighters kind of do the same. We feel there is a difference, but are we able to articulate it and prove the difference in court. There are all kinds of ethical problems here, but there are also pragmatic ones. When a house becomes intollerably infected with vermin, it will be burnt to the ground. If the terrorists do enough damage, they will be gotten rid of one war or the other. People who have tolerated or supported them here to fore, without cost, should know that.

 

[Czar]

I´v seen to much hate here

 

[Jfur]

<< I´v seen to much hate here >>

 

[Zwingle]

That is why we live in such a great country.....we can express our opinions and show our anger, no matter what others believe.

 

[burnedout]

Have you gained new insight into the members of this forums?

Tremendous insight.

Three 200,000 pound aircraft, converted into flying bombs, crash into three buildings killing no less than 5,500 people. Oh, almost forgot, on American soil too.

And then the damn bleeding hearts come running; even screaming out of the woodwork. Trying to convince me retaliation is wrong.

 

[Psychoholic]

<< Have you gained new insight into the members of this forums? >>



Yeah, I've learned that there are some of us here that accuse anyone that doesn't agree with their views of being a racist. Then they run and hide when asked for proof of their accusations.

http://forums.anandtech.com/messageview.cfm?catid=38&threadid=563664

This is a time when we should all stand together not be driven apart.

 

[351Cleveland]

I would like to thank our Canadian bretheren for their support through this crisis. Our dogs thank you too!

While we (meaning ALL Americans, and Canadians are Americans too!) are all enraged and seeking retribution, most of us have been able to release our rage, through church services, punching walls, or doing massive donuts in the Walmart parking lot What we are left with is resolve (too early to spell). This resolve involves the erradication of these roaches, so that the US AND THE REST OF THE WORLD are free (as free as pssible) from the worry of terrorists controlling our lives through destruction

 

[classy]

<< Have you gained new insight into the members of this forums?

Man, I can't believe how full of hate so many members of this forum have.

On the bright side, we've also seen the people who can separate hate from anger, and who use their rational side to overcome their wanton emotions. >>



I ain't surprise about here or abroad in our country. This is where we live. It just shows where we are as a people and shows us where we have to go to be a better society.

 

[HowardStern]

<< Yes theres alot of anger and hate on the forums...but what gets me is the overwhelming lack of education on the subject matter and ignorance of a few members. For instance...people who say lets destroy Afganistan and turn it into a parking lot... and then spout some pseudo patriotic bs. >>



I have 2 degrees, and I want to completely destroy all terrorist cells and the Taliban Govt in Afghanistan (go Northern Alliance!), olus a few other governments gotta go - by force. Does that make me a warmonger? I don't think so.
We must kill kill kill. Must kill.

 

[Elledan]

<< Elledan,



<< The alternative? Don't fight fire with fire, because only both sides will get burned. >>

O wise one, please enlighten us with your wisdom. What exactly is the alternative, since fighting fire with fire will not be effective?

So many pansies like you have spoken out against armed conflict to fight against the terrorists. How exactly do you want us to react to this attack? Please, be realistic. Bullshit liberal pinko rhetoric isn't enough; I want to hear a real solution.

I'm anxiously awaiting your brilliant advice. >>

Understanding is the key.

Understand what the motives of those terrorists are, understand why other people/countries support them, then use reason to come up with a solution.

There are two ways to open a box of which the lock is rusted and can't be opened the normal way. One way is to use a sledgehammer, which will shatter the box and its contents. The second method is to patiently remove the hinges, so that the box's contents remain undamaged.

if the US responds with violence, they will not be able to get rid of all terrorists, because new terrorists are not hard to find, as long as there's something to fight for. The only result of an attack against those terrorists will be a wave of destruction in the US and other properties of the US in foreign countries will be demolished, like the buildings of ambassadors. It has happened before and can easily happen again.

Therefore attacking terrorists seems to be a rather foolish action.

I agree, the alternative I presented will take much longer, but at least it'll be a long-term solution.

 

[NesuD]

<< You sir, are a bona fide TWIT. >>




<< Let me judge you. YOU SIR, ARE SCUM. >>



Nice job Shazam I guess we just got some good insight into you haven't we.

I was simply pointing out that many members are rushing to judge the ones who are blowing off steam and when that judgement comes from members of other nationalities I take offense. I am sorry to hear that you can't contact your Aunt and i hope that she is well. On the other hand i wasn't doing any name calling of anyone unlike you. lets get this right I am scum for because i believe people other than US cictizens shouldn't rush to judge us after the horrific events of last week. Well than sir I admit it I am Scum. Because I pointed out the fact to Naughtyus that Canada and The US are not the same I am a twit. Once again I admit it I am a twit. Now point out to me exactly what I posted that justified your childish name calling.

 

[gopunk]

Yea well your country wasn't the target of some lunatic religious fanatics who just murdered 5,000+ of your citizens so you will just have to excuse some of us for not posessing the steely self control of our superior neighbors to the north.:disgust:

that's no excuse, i'm an american but i have enough sense not to condone the killing of innocents unlike some of our congressmen...

 

[clarkmo]

<< Understanding is the key. >>


Elledan,
I fail to see a specific plan of action from you. not that you are required to respond.
I do understand. I understand that if Bi Madman and his ilk are not stopped and prevented from repeating their actions in even a more destructive manner then they will repeat their actions.
What's their next complaint gonna be. We don't allow them to overrun Israel? Perhaps he merely wants to be crowned King of Saudi Arabia. He'll beback, count onit. Unless we prevent him from doing it.
I understand.

 

[Optimus]

It has been interesting - the reactions that is...

I've seen the whole spectrum of resonses here - from "Let's solve this by giving the terrorists big hugs" to "Let's solve this by nuking everything between Greece and China". Both of which are extreems and insane.

I've seen racial hatred, religious hatred, cultural hatred, and then too I've also seen a anger that is focused, measured, and justified. I've seen fear, sorrow, and tears.

I've seen a lot of foriegn people - including my countrymen from Canada - show a terrible lack of tact and social skills by using this time of grief as a soapbox to voice thier beefs with America.

I've seen people here use the tradgedy to unleash an already present racism too.

Everyone reacts differently, everyone speaks as they need to. It only really becomes a problem when people act those feelings out in destructive ways - such as racist acts of violence, or the people who spraypainted "American Capitalists got what they deserved" across a city bank wall.

 

[Elledan]

<<

<< Understanding is the key. >>


Elledan,
I fail to see a specific plan of action from you. not that you are required to respond.
I do understand. I understand that if Bi Madman and his ilk are not stopped and prevented from repeating their actions in even a more destructive manner then they will repeat their actions.
What's their next complaint gonna be. We don't allow them to overrun Israel? Perhaps he merely wants to be crowned King of Saudi Arabia. He'll beback, count onit. Unless we prevent him from doing it.
I understand. >>

I clearly stated what has to be done. If you fail to understand it, go back and read it again.

For your information, even terrorists have a reason for their actions. Take away this reason and the problem is gone.

I would like to point at what happened during WW2. There was only one person in the whole German 'Reich' who was convinced that what he was doing was right, namely Hitler himself. Everyone else only joined his 'game' out of greed, personal gain, through propaganda or by force. If the driving force behind this war (Hitler) would have been isolated from the rest of the people or his grip on this people would somehow been removed, the war would have ended immediately.

Right now we have a similar situation in the US: a few people truly believe in attacking those terrorists, while everyone else who supports those attacks are influenced by propaganda through the media and official channels. The driving force behind this new war might truly believe that what he/they do(es) is the right thing, but that doesn't make it right. The answer on the question who is right - the US or the terrorists - is a short 'both'.

I'm still convinced that a war against those terrorists will take years, be a waste of manpower, resources and will cost many their lives. It'll be about as senseless as the war in Vietnam.

And a final note: there still is absolutely NO EVIDENCE that Bin Laden has anything to do with those attacks. After the Oklahoma bombing in 1995 the same thing happened, with everyone pointing at the Mid-East and running around in circles until they stumbled over the real bomber: McVeigh. Will history repeat itself?

 

[Russ]

<< then use reason to come up with a solution. >>



Reason? You're kidding, right? I mean you have to be. Nobody with any ability to reason could actually believe that these fanatics will respond to reason. By definition, a fanatic is the most unreasonable of creatures.

The ONLY response they understand is force. Decisive, massive, brute force.

Now, you are right about one thing, though. Simply killing the murderers themselves is not enough. That is only the starting point. We must also severely punish those countries that support and aid them. Only after we eliminate the cowards hiding place can we remove the threat of that coward.

Russ, NCNE

 

[Tripleshot]

>>>For your information, even terrorists have a reason for their actions. Take away this reason and the problem is gone.<<<

Hmmm.Perhaps we could envite a terrorist to a tailgate party and use the occasion to listen to there side and expose them to our way of thinking. That should work,huh?

Terrorists are motivated by a distorted conception of there religeous beliefs and a profound loyalty to a charismatic leader. Today that charasmatic leader is Osama. In Iraq, its Saddam. In Lybia its Momar.

Russ is right. Live by the sword, die by the sword. These barbariians understand that. The free world should aalow them to meet Allah face to face. The Muslums I have heard in the news lately say Allah will not recieve them , but send them straight to hell.:|

 

[StageLeft]

I have definitely gained new insight. As I originally thought, and still believe, most people here are intelligent and many are obviously educated and able to look at an issue from all sides and understand all consequences. As they go through life they think, not just go from day to day doing.

That said these forums have also instilled in me a sense that out of the general populous many are extremely ignorant and arrogant, and it doesn't seem to bother them one bit. Many of the people here have absolutely no sense of history or respect for their fellow man; if its outside of the borders of the US they couldn't give less of a damn. A case in point would be the guy who says that we're doing favors to afghans (the regular powerless, opressed citizens - not the Taliban or friends) by killing them. I don't wanna name any names but lets just say his name is Howard Stern.

 

[Shazam]

<< I was simply pointing out that many members are rushing to judge the ones who are blowing off steam and when that judgement comes from members of other nationalities I take offense. I am sorry to hear that you can't contact your Aunt and i hope that she is well. On the other hand i wasn't doing any name calling of anyone unlike you. lets get this right I am scum for because i believe people other than US cictizens shouldn't rush to judge us after the horrific events of last week. Well than sir I admit it I am Scum. Because I pointed out the fact to Naughtyus that Canada and The US are not the same I am a twit. Once again I admit it I am a twit. Now point out to me exactly what I posted that justified your childish name calling. >>

You didn't even answer my question.

Also, the question I asked was to ALL the members of the forum, including people from the US.

And, of course I'm allowed to judge people. Heck, half the members have already judged Afghanistan. Do you think they shouldn't be allowed to judge, either?

And, the WTC event affected EVERY country that values freedom. That values liberty. That values life. This includes Canada.

And, yeah, you are a twit. Get off your "you're not from the US, so your opinion doesn't matter" pedestal. This event affected more than just your citizens, fool.

 

[Athanasius]

I would agree with the statement that the terrorists are a symptom, not the cause. Hence, killing these particular terrorists doesn't solve the problem. . . .

. . . . But neither does philosophizing, however important that may be in crafting long term responses.

Consider a medical analogy: radical cancer surgery. In "surgically removing" these terrorists, there is the reality that healthier tissue that surrounds the malignancy also is killed. Yet no one refuses to operate based on those grounds, as horrible as that is when we talk about individual human lives. But I have to understand that removing these terrorists is also removing part of me: I am part of the human body as are they. Killing them means losing a part of myself.

Still, to say that the terrorists are only a symptom and not the cause doesn't mean that they shouldn't be removed. Diabetes may progress to the point that a leg has to be amputated. Does that amputation cure the disease? Of course not.

Still, it is death not to do the amputation. It is not about vengeance or hate. It is about the harsh reality that these terrorists represent a progression of the disease that requires radical intervention. In that intervention, I lose part of my own body, but I am in agreement that the intervention is necessary. There is no room for superiority here. If I was raised the way these terrorists were raised, would I be any different? Do I know that I would? Whatever the case, if I were one of these terrorists, then the me that I now am (Athanasius the Christian)would have to stop the me that could have been (Athanasius the Terrorist) by whatever means are possible. And it is love for humanity that makes this necessity a present reality.

Killing the terrorists by whatever means necessary solves nothing in and of itself. But it does buy us time. Just as amputating the leg buys the diabetic time in hope that a cure will be found. Nothing but death will stop someone who places his own ideology above life. When the ideology generates such individual malignant acts, then for the sake of the whole body, that level of malignancy must be removed. Not with scapegoating and vengeance, but with the same methodical determination that a surgeon removes cancer. But vengeful hatred of the amputated leg does nothing. I am only posioning the rest of the body with those emotions that are too powerful and toxic for human souls.

As necessary as the step is, I should sense loss, not satisfaction.

 

[Yeeny]

I've seen people here use the tradgedy to unleash an already present racism too.

That is what bothers me the most, the fact that people are using this tragedy to spread their bigotry. I don't want to see any Arab, Muslim, or anyone at all pay for this crime, except the ones who did it. That said, I am a very peaceful person. I have been accused many times on this board alone for being wishy washy, too compassionate, etc. But we need to go in there, and stop these people now. For those of you that say we need to step back and think about what we have done to them, no. I have not done anything to them, those people in the towers did nothing to them. Bombing the Pentagon, while still horribly wrong, at least was against the Government and the war section of our country. When they decided to attack innocent people, the time for talking is all done. I DO NOT want to go into Afghanistan, and bomb all the innocents, I want them to go in and get the bastards that supported this. The ones who paid for it all over the world, the ones who organized it, the ones who have those peoples blood on their hands. Those are the ones I want to see pay, before they hurt someone else. I cannot take seeing another parent on tv, crying and looking for the father/mother of their children. Another person looking for their fiancee, another mother crying for their child. And you know, it will happen again if we don't stop it. This time though, it might not be America. Maybe the Eiffel Tower will go, or Big Ben. Who knows what they could go after next, in their quest for what is right in their hearts. This is not about religion, no God teaches you to kill like this, no matter what Bin Laden or anyone else claims. This is about cold blooded murder, in their deluded quest for power. If we don't stop them now, we might never get the chance again.