BarneyFife
Diamond Member
Exactly. I'm glad that nuts like you aren't running this country into the ground. Get rid of the public school system ROFL!!!!
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Have you been duped by the public education system?
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Exactly. I'm glad that nuts like you aren't running this country into the ground. Get rid of the public school system ROFL!!!!
DealMonkey
Lifer
I guess in the end-analysis, if the voucher system allowed your taxpayer money to follow your child to whatever school you chose for him/her that would be acceptable as long as all of all schools were held to the same rigorous standards. By having the money follow the child, schools of all flavors would be funded appropriately. Underperforming schools would be weeded out economically as parents steered kids to better choices. As long as an array of secular and non-secular school choices existed, I wouldn't really see a problem...
JustAnAverageGuy
Diamond Member
If by brainwashed you mean
Then yes. Yes I do.
Because NOT EVERYBODY shares that same faith. It is incorrect to value one religion over another. Until you learn that, there is absolutely no point is arguing with you.
There is nothing wrong with gay foster parents.
The government can't prevent YOU from teaching your children. It can't prevent your CHURCH from teaching your children.
oh, and yllus and DealMonkey
:beer: for both of you 🙂
HalosPuma:
There is no way what your saying would work for the entire country. True "some" private schools are better than others, but there is no way they could handle all the students that are in the public schools. You say this gives better choices, but it does not. Some people do not have the ability to move just to get their kids in a school that teaches what they want their kids to learn. ITT Tech, and Devry are two examples of schools that teach very specific things. What about general education (i.e. math, science, history, English, ect..)?
Your ideas are very Darwinistic, which is fine if you are on the side that has the ability to stay above all the rest. You obviously do not care what happens to poor people. Can you honestly tell me that you would sleep ok at night if what you want actually went into effect and millions of Americans would starve to death? Because I hate to break it to you, once it becomes survival of the fittest there will not be much charity out there to keep them alive.
There is no way what your saying would work for the entire country. True "some" private schools are better than others, but there is no way they could handle all the students that are in the public schools. You say this gives better choices, but it does not. Some people do not have the ability to move just to get their kids in a school that teaches what they want their kids to learn. ITT Tech, and Devry are two examples of schools that teach very specific things. What about general education (i.e. math, science, history, English, ect..)?
Your ideas are very Darwinistic, which is fine if you are on the side that has the ability to stay above all the rest. You obviously do not care what happens to poor people. Can you honestly tell me that you would sleep ok at night if what you want actually went into effect and millions of Americans would starve to death? Because I hate to break it to you, once it becomes survival of the fittest there will not be much charity out there to keep them alive.
A little off topic, but interesting:
Idea of the Week: A Military Charter School
If ever there was a sign of changing times, this is it: Oakland, CA, Mayor Jerry Brown, with the support of Gov. Gray Davis and U.S. Sen. Diane Feinstein, has convinced the CA Board of Education to approve and partially fund a military charter school in his city, over the opposition of Bay Area anti-military activists.
Younger folks may not know that Jerry Brown, two-term Governor of California from 1975-83, was once the darling of the cultural left, not just in California but around the country. Gray Davis was his chief of staff; indeed, his work for Brown was often cited by Republicans during the 1998 gubernatorial race as evidence that he could not really be a centrist Democrat. Diane Feinstein, of course, was Mayor of San Francisco when it still had the reputation as a sort of urban theme park for the Left.
Brown is now mayor of a city with some of the worst public schools in California, especially those serving inner-city minority kids, and he's become an avid supporter of charter schools as a way to give parents options; schools a chance to meet the real needs of specific students; and kids a chance to get into college. Big changes seemed to be called for: Fewer than 10 percent of African-American males graduating from Oakland public schools had even the course credits necessary for admission to the University of California or California State University systems.
One particular idea Brown embraced was to experiment with a military charter school that would combine top-notch college prep courses with a disciplined and mutually respectful atmosphere and some physical training. A closed military base in Oakland was available as a site, and both the California National Guard and the U.S. Department of Defense offered financial and technical support.
But Brown and military school organizers had to get permission from the Oakland School Board to open a public charter school, and that's where all hell broke loose. Some local opponents, like their counterparts in the education establishment nationwide, simply don't like public charter schools, claiming they "drain money" from "real" public schools. But much of the energy behind the drive to halt the school came from area activists who basically oppose the U.S. military in all its forms. Said Wilson Riles, Jr., Pacific Mountain Regional Director of the American Friends Service Committee: "This proposal represents the continued and deepening influence of militarism and the legitimization of violence in our community. The school would be yet another way for the military to recruit more students."
The argument is interesting, to say the least. No one would be forced or pushed to go to the military charter school, and expectations are that it would be flooded with eager applicants. But hey, kids need to be protected from the "influence" of the military, and shielded from the temptation to sign up with Uncle Sam.
Rebuffed by the Oakland School Board last May, Brown went the next step up the ladder, asking for a charter for the military school from the Alameda County School Board. Protests were renewed, and again the proposal was rejected. Finally, an exasperated Brown went to the final body with the power to issue a charter, the State Board of Education, and with the support of Davis and Feinstein, won by a unanimous vote on Dec. 7.
Feinstein came out for the military charter school in August, comparing Brown's efforts in Oakland to the successful drive in Chicago over the last several years to turn around one of the worst public school systems in the country with a heavy emphasis on rigorous performance standards and intervention in failing schools. "Mayor Brown's call for a military charter school, though controversial, represents the type of boldness and experimentation that we need to improve public education," she said.
Davis' support was obviously most crucial. He appeared personally before the state board of education when the proposal came up, and he has placed state funds to support it in his budget. Himself an alumnus of a military school in North Hollywood, Davis was naturally unsympathetic to the idea that military-style education represents some sort of culture of violence. "I am proof that military school can make a positive, lasting influence in a young person's life."
For his part, Jerry Brown, whose commitment to quality education for inner-city, minority kids has led him into constant conflict with his erstwhile friends on the activist Left, is living proof that the most radically progressive ideas today are often found in the vital center.
Link
Idea of the Week: A Military Charter School
If ever there was a sign of changing times, this is it: Oakland, CA, Mayor Jerry Brown, with the support of Gov. Gray Davis and U.S. Sen. Diane Feinstein, has convinced the CA Board of Education to approve and partially fund a military charter school in his city, over the opposition of Bay Area anti-military activists.
Younger folks may not know that Jerry Brown, two-term Governor of California from 1975-83, was once the darling of the cultural left, not just in California but around the country. Gray Davis was his chief of staff; indeed, his work for Brown was often cited by Republicans during the 1998 gubernatorial race as evidence that he could not really be a centrist Democrat. Diane Feinstein, of course, was Mayor of San Francisco when it still had the reputation as a sort of urban theme park for the Left.
Brown is now mayor of a city with some of the worst public schools in California, especially those serving inner-city minority kids, and he's become an avid supporter of charter schools as a way to give parents options; schools a chance to meet the real needs of specific students; and kids a chance to get into college. Big changes seemed to be called for: Fewer than 10 percent of African-American males graduating from Oakland public schools had even the course credits necessary for admission to the University of California or California State University systems.
One particular idea Brown embraced was to experiment with a military charter school that would combine top-notch college prep courses with a disciplined and mutually respectful atmosphere and some physical training. A closed military base in Oakland was available as a site, and both the California National Guard and the U.S. Department of Defense offered financial and technical support.
But Brown and military school organizers had to get permission from the Oakland School Board to open a public charter school, and that's where all hell broke loose. Some local opponents, like their counterparts in the education establishment nationwide, simply don't like public charter schools, claiming they "drain money" from "real" public schools. But much of the energy behind the drive to halt the school came from area activists who basically oppose the U.S. military in all its forms. Said Wilson Riles, Jr., Pacific Mountain Regional Director of the American Friends Service Committee: "This proposal represents the continued and deepening influence of militarism and the legitimization of violence in our community. The school would be yet another way for the military to recruit more students."
The argument is interesting, to say the least. No one would be forced or pushed to go to the military charter school, and expectations are that it would be flooded with eager applicants. But hey, kids need to be protected from the "influence" of the military, and shielded from the temptation to sign up with Uncle Sam.
Rebuffed by the Oakland School Board last May, Brown went the next step up the ladder, asking for a charter for the military school from the Alameda County School Board. Protests were renewed, and again the proposal was rejected. Finally, an exasperated Brown went to the final body with the power to issue a charter, the State Board of Education, and with the support of Davis and Feinstein, won by a unanimous vote on Dec. 7.
Feinstein came out for the military charter school in August, comparing Brown's efforts in Oakland to the successful drive in Chicago over the last several years to turn around one of the worst public school systems in the country with a heavy emphasis on rigorous performance standards and intervention in failing schools. "Mayor Brown's call for a military charter school, though controversial, represents the type of boldness and experimentation that we need to improve public education," she said.
Davis' support was obviously most crucial. He appeared personally before the state board of education when the proposal came up, and he has placed state funds to support it in his budget. Himself an alumnus of a military school in North Hollywood, Davis was naturally unsympathetic to the idea that military-style education represents some sort of culture of violence. "I am proof that military school can make a positive, lasting influence in a young person's life."
For his part, Jerry Brown, whose commitment to quality education for inner-city, minority kids has led him into constant conflict with his erstwhile friends on the activist Left, is living proof that the most radically progressive ideas today are often found in the vital center.
Link
Capitalism! Do you honestly think that a cash-cow like private-education would not lead others to open up their own private-schools? Just look at all of the other sectors out there. A high profit-margin always brings in competition.
Yes, have you seen my other thread? That would only be a transition until the free-market balanced things out. I am a firm believer in the free-market. In the end, it will correct all of our problems, but we would first have to go through a hardship.
JustAnAverageGuy
Diamond Member
He's not laughing at the constitution.
He's laughing at this
Quite frankly, I'm laughing at you too.
If it isnt' broke, don't fix fix it.
This country would collapse without education - period. I'm not saying keep everyone uneducated, I'm saying get the government bureaucracy out of education and have it privatized. That will save billions of dollars and provide higher quality. I am speaking from experience because I went to private school.
As I stated above - capitalism encourages others to open schools and provide high quality education or else they will lose business to other schools.
DealMonkey
Lifer
As a follow-up to my own post 😉 the problem is until the economics of a true voucher system are worked out, I believe we're stuck with the public school system along with all of the pluses and minuses that brings. However, until we come up with a better system, the public school system MUST be secular and not be allowed to introduce any one brand of religion no matter how seemingly innocuous it may seem. Kids need to go to school to learn. If the parents are so insistant on instilling religion, THEIR religion, in their child's every facet of life, there is always the private school alternative or home-schooling. Or geeze, come to think of it, send them to church on Sundays. Isn't that what normal people do?
halik
Lifer
well yeah true,
however your well being or the quality of education will be proportional to your household income (like in any other free market setting). This in turns creates income based class system that will be difficult to escape from.
So even if you are a really bright kid coming from a poor family, you have a less chance of succeeding than a dumb or average kid from a rich family.
stateofbeasley
Senior member
Great. Your claim is based on a sample size of ONE. You.
I went to a public school and received a very fine education. I met people in college who went to expensive private schools and couldn't reason their way out of a cardboard box.
It's the attitudes of students that is the problem. Football is more important than books. People who read are dismissed as "nerdy." Scholars are dismissed as "Liberals."
I went to a public school and received a very fine education. I met people in college who went to expensive private schools and couldn't reason their way out of a cardboard box.
It's the attitudes of students that is the problem. Football is more important than books. People who read are dismissed as "nerdy." Scholars are dismissed as "Liberals."
No, it depends on the will and determination of the child. Look, I had a lot of classmates whose mommy and daddy spoiled them rotten. They barely passed and were generally useless idiots. Just look at Paris Hilton. But then again, I also had classmates whose parents lived in the inner-city and they scraped up every penny they had in order to send their child to my school. They actually did pretty well for themselves.
No one is ever going to be equal and I sure hope that never happens because if it does, we'd all be communists. But everyone has the opportunity to make something of themselves. If they piss it away, that's their problem.
JustAnAverageGuy
Diamond Member
So basically, you're agreeing that what we need are not better schools, we need better students.
stateofbeasley
Senior member
:thumbsup:
As long as people don't care about school, no amount of $ or competition thrown at the problem will solve anything.
As long as people don't care about school, no amount of $ or competition thrown at the problem will solve anything.
halik
Lifer
Well everything held equal, there's is a distinct advantage for the high income student. In every population youll have the bright people and the people who don't care. However in privatized scenario every demographic from the whole population is better off if they're high income. Even if the rich kids dont try hard, they'll still receive higher quality education than the low income kids. So two people with identical aspirations will have different education beased on their income. If you make them compete against each other, it's gonna be a catastrophy.
You dont need a communist system for anything like that - you need free public education. That's why we have it in the first place - so everyone, no matter of their back ground, has the same odds of making it.
That's the equality that's necessary for economically sustainable society.
There are many examples of income-segregated education failures in sub saharn africa. I think it was zaire that put a lot of the foreign aid money into constructing higher education system. In the end it was the rich elite that ended up attending it, because the peasons couldn't sustain the opportunity cost of going to school (they needed to farm to make food to survive ... only about 30% of the pop attends elementray school). Over the last 30 years zaire had no growth in GDP what so ever.
BarneyFife
Diamond Member
Exactly. This is the only reason students do bad in public school, they don't care. Private schools have better scores than some public schools because parents invest thousands and don't want their investment to go in the trash so they discipline their kids and make sure they do well in school. I just find it laughable that the same people who trash the public school system take extracts of all the bad things from thousands of schools, combine them, and act like all public schools are awful. The thing about homosexuals being ok is funny. Not one time did I ever find a teacher advocating the homosexual lifestyle.
In a utopian and ideal world, yes. However, the fact is that we live in the real world and the public schools in affluent neighborhoods are tremendously better than the public schools in inner-cities. So arguing that having public school vs. private school somehow levels the playing field is incorrect. The inner-city, in either scenario, will have a lower-quality school than the affluent areas. However, the big difference is that the private, inner-city schools still would do a much better job than public schools.
Another thing that goes hand in hand with this is that we need to increase our juvenile prison system. Public school is not some place to babysit your little gang-banger for 6 hours a day. They should all be in prison and removed from society so as not to disrupt the others from learning.
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