Have you been duped by the public education system?

[halik]

Originally posted by: Riprorin

Originally posted by: BarneyFife
You know why they are the "worst schools"? Because a lot of kids in the inner city have no father in their life and their mother is scavenging for money. The reason why affleunt schools have better scores is because of a better family system at home. It has NOTHING to do with the schools. The books are the same and they teach you the same thing.

A lot of parents in aflluent suburban areas are too preoccupied with their careers/activies to give a darn about their kids.

Growing up in a wealthy, suburban area is no guarantee of success.

2nd....
honestly the problem with us education is not money or religion/lack there of. It's the mindset of the kids. You can stuff schools with jillions of dollars, but if the kids don't care, it won't help a bit.

I always found it funny how highschools streess and favor teams sports of academics. People who do well are "dorks" or lower social class, whereas the guy that wins a football game against the next highschool over is the in the topmost social class. The moires of the system put huge disincentive on excelling in academics, which is grossely counter productive

 

[Thump553]

If Jesus was walking the earth today, chances are far greater that he would be a "socialist" as compared to what passes as a Christian in the US neocon community. The reason for these results is that the kids haven't become hypocritical yet.

 

[Riprorin]

Why Catholic Schools Spell Success For America's Inner-City Children

Excerpt:

In a study published in 1990, for example, the Rand Corporation analyzed big-city high schools to determine how education for low income minority youth could be improved.2 It looked at 13 public, private, and Catholic high schools in New York City that attracted minority and disadvantaged youth. Of the Catholic school students in these schools, 75 to 90 percent were black or Hispanic. The study found that:

The Catholic high schools graduated 95 percent of their students each year, while the public schools graduated slightly more 50 percent of their senior class;

Over 66 percent of the Catholic school graduates received the New York State Regents diploma to signify completion of an academically demanding college preparatory curriculum, while only about 5 percent of the public school students received this distinction;

85 percent of the Catholic high school students took the Scholastic Aptitude Test (SAT), compared with just 33 percent of the public high school students;

The Catholic school students achieved an average combined SAT score of 803, while the public school students' average combined SAT score was 642; and

60 percent of the Catholic school black students scored above the national average for black students on the SAT, and over 70 percent of public school black students scored below the same national average.

 

[HalosPuma]

Originally posted by: ECUHITMAN
Ok I get that you do not want any government (for anything other than defense) but to say the private sector can do it better is a joke. What is your basis for saying that?

I went to private school and earned a 4-year scholarship to a university of my choice. The ironic thing is that the scholarship board used my private, college-prep school as the guideline since it was the highest ranking school.

Originally posted by: ECUHITMAN
A company is in business to make money; education does not generate money for anyone.

ITT Tech? DeVry's? etc. Those are for-profit schools.

Originally posted by: ECUHITMAN
How would you pay for this? What about poor people? Should they not be allowed to go to school? And if they don?t have to pay, who would pay for them?

I pay for it with my own money. Poor people will have to rely of charitable donations. (If we can scape up many millions in private donations to tsunami victims, I'm sure we can scrape up private donations for education.)

Originally posted by: ECUHITMAN
As for schools competing for students, what if there is only 1 school in that town?

Do you not know how capitalism works? 1 school in town = business opportunity!

 

[DealMonkey]

Cliff notes: Secular world-view wrong; Christian world-view right.

Of course, god forbid if we have a secular public school system devoid of religious references and indoctrination so that children of ALL faiths can attend and not be offended by one particular set of beliefs being forced down their throats on a daily basis. God forbid we have a public school system that can at least attempt to level the playing field for children of all socio-economic backgrounds and at least attempt to provide an education for anyone who wants it.

If you don't like it, don't send your kids to public schools. Home-school them and turn them into little bible-thumping freaks of nature who can't assimilate into society because they never learned to deal with opposing opinions on virtually any topic. Look how it worked out for Rip!

😛

 

[HalosPuma]

Originally posted by: Riprorin
Why Catholic Schools Spell Success For America's Inner-City Children
The Catholic high schools graduated 95 percent of their students each year, while the public schools graduated slightly more 50 percent of their senior class;

Religion classes give you the hope that there is meaning in your life and that you have free-will to improve your life. Hope is what drives humans to achieve greatness. A lot of kids today have no hope and thus can't envision a great future so they just live in the here and now. Faith, a belief in a force greater than man, allows one have goals for the future.

 

[halik]

Originally posted by: HalosPuma

Originally posted by: halik
It would produce higher quality education, but at higher cost. It's simple supply and demand:
say in your district theres a good school and a bad school.
Obviously there will be higher demand in the good school and therefore the price in the good school will rise. Conversely the low demand in the bad school will force the price to be cut.

To put it in your computer parts analogy:
the rich kids will be able to afford radeon x800 versus the poor kids that can only afford radeon x300SE 🙂

Actually, I bought the BFG6800 Ultra. 😀

But you are forgetting there is a market out there. As long as a profit can be made, there will be good quality schools for the lower-income families. To go back to the video card reference - ATI and NVidia make good quality average- and even low-end cards because there is a demand for them.

Now, the more successful families will send their kids to schools that have more bells and whistles, but tell me this - did someone with only a mid- or low-end video card not enjoy Half-Life 2 or Doom, or were they required to use the most expensive card for their enjoyment? Those kids will still get a good education to get them started in life, but, yes, they will be missing some extras that the successful families are able to provide for their children. Such is life.

well you're proving my point. Privatizing education will further the income gap and create unfair advantage to people with high income.

C'est la vie is hardly the answer to that problem - the philosophy being public education is to create a level playing field. No matter where you came from or who are your parents, you have the same chance to make it in life. If you go thru the lower grade schools your entire life and then are asked to compete against kids that went thru much betters schools, you will most likely lose. This is the inherent disadvantage and asymetry that is the thron in everyones behind. You DONT want to create a system of education that will create a ruling class of elites a la Colombia.

 

[HalosPuma]

Originally posted by: DealMonkey
If you don't like it, don't send your kids to public schools. Home-school them

That's fine, but the problem is that my taxes are still going to fund public schools. I won't attend public schools, I won't put my kids in public schools, and I won't complain about the socialism in public schools if I'm not taxed to support public schools. As long as I am taxed, you damn well better believe I will have a word or two or more on how my money is spent.

 

[DealMonkey]

Originally posted by: HalosPuma

Originally posted by: Riprorin
Why Catholic Schools Spell Success For America's Inner-City Children
The Catholic high schools graduated 95 percent of their students each year, while the public schools graduated slightly more 50 percent of their senior class;

Religion classes give you the hope that there is meaning in your life and that you have free-will to improve your life. Hope is what drives humans to achieve greatness. A lot of kids today have no hope and thus can't envision a great future so they just live in the here and now. Faith, a belief in a force greater than man, allows one have goals for the future.

Actually, the belief that your life has only the meaning you choose to give it and that only you are the master of your own destiny -- not some bearded magical guy in the clouds -- allows one to take control of their lives and give it purpose and thereby living in this world not for the fantastical next one envisioned by those of "faith."

Hell, it doesn't take religion to have goals. Any idiot can write a "to do" list for themselves without divine intervention. Pfft.

 

[rickn]

Originally posted by: HalosPuma

Originally posted by: DealMonkey
If you don't like it, don't send your kids to public schools. Home-school them

That's fine, but the problem is that my taxes are still going to fund public schools. I won't attend public schools, I won't put my kids in public schools, and I won't complain about the socialism in public schools if I'm not taxed to support public schools. As long as I am taxed, you damn well better believe I will have a word or two or more on how my money is spent.

I honestly don't like that I pay about $500 a year to the public school system thru my property taxes. But hey, I can't do anything about it. I did take advantage of the publich education system, guess we all end up having to pay for it somehow.

 

[HalosPuma]

Originally posted by: DealMonkey

Originally posted by: HalosPuma

Originally posted by: Riprorin
Why Catholic Schools Spell Success For America's Inner-City Children
The Catholic high schools graduated 95 percent of their students each year, while the public schools graduated slightly more 50 percent of their senior class;

Religion classes give you the hope that there is meaning in your life and that you have free-will to improve your life. Hope is what drives humans to achieve greatness. A lot of kids today have no hope and thus can't envision a great future so they just live in the here and now. Faith, a belief in a force greater than man, allows one have goals for the future.

Actually, the belief that your life has only the meaning you choose to give it and that only you are the master of your own destiny -- not some bearded magical guy in the clouds -- allows one to take control of their lives and give it purpose and thereby living in this world not for the fantastical next one envisioned by those of "faith."

Hell, it doesn't take religion to have goals. Any idiot can write a "to do" list for themselves without divine intervention. Pfft.

We're talking percentages here, not individual cases. Just look at the stats above.

 

[DealMonkey]

Originally posted by: HalosPuma

Originally posted by: DealMonkey
If you don't like it, don't send your kids to public schools. Home-school them

That's fine, but the problem is that my taxes are still going to fund public schools. I won't attend public schools, I won't put my kids in public schools, and I won't complain about the socialism in public schools if I'm not taxed to support public schools. As long as I am taxed, you damn well better believe I will have a word or two or more on how my money is spent.

What about the myriad of OTHER purposes your tax money goes to? Hell, I object to MY tax money being spent on roads that I NEVER drive on and weapon systems and military gear used to wage wars I DON'T believe in. Do you see me outside with a freaking sign? See how ridiculous that is? Sometimes, to live in a decent society, you have to contribute to the general well-being. And a secular school system that attempts to educate everyone, pulls our society up as a whole. Which benefits everyone.

Christ, you people see "socialism" everywhere don't you? Oh brother...

 

[DealMonkey]

Originally posted by: HalosPuma
We're talking percentages here, not individual cases. Just look at the stats above.

Oh please, like I'm going to take stats offered up by the HERITAGE FOUNDATION at face-value. Please. I'd sooner believe a GOP-funded case study that determines that drilling for oil in Alaska makes penguins faster and stronger and elk bullet-proof.

 

[HalosPuma]

Originally posted by: DealMonkey

Originally posted by: HalosPuma

Originally posted by: DealMonkey
If you don't like it, don't send your kids to public schools. Home-school them

That's fine, but the problem is that my taxes are still going to fund public schools. I won't attend public schools, I won't put my kids in public schools, and I won't complain about the socialism in public schools if I'm not taxed to support public schools. As long as I am taxed, you damn well better believe I will have a word or two or more on how my money is spent.

What about the myriad of OTHER purposes your tax money goes to? Hell, I object to MY tax money being spent on roads that I NEVER drive on and weapon systems and military gear used to wage wars I DON'T believe in. Do you see me outside with a freaking sign? See how ridiculous that is? Sometimes, to live in a decent society, you have to contribute to the general well-being. And a secular school system that attempts to educate everyone, pulls our society up as a whole. Which benefits everyone.

Christ, you people see "socialism" everywhere don't you? Oh brother...

Actually, if you read our Constitution, you would see that Congress, in Article 1, Section 8, is authorized:

To establish Post Offices and post Roads;
To provide and maintain a Navy
To provide for organizing, arming, and disciplining, the Militia,
etc.

Our nation never needed a public school system and we were fine. Why is it that now people assume that without government-run "education" systems, our country would be full of idiots?

 

[BarneyFife]

Originally posted by: HalosPuma

Originally posted by: DealMonkey

Originally posted by: HalosPuma

Originally posted by: DealMonkey
If you don't like it, don't send your kids to public schools. Home-school them

That's fine, but the problem is that my taxes are still going to fund public schools. I won't attend public schools, I won't put my kids in public schools, and I won't complain about the socialism in public schools if I'm not taxed to support public schools. As long as I am taxed, you damn well better believe I will have a word or two or more on how my money is spent.

What about the myriad of OTHER purposes your tax money goes to? Hell, I object to MY tax money being spent on roads that I NEVER drive on and weapon systems and military gear used to wage wars I DON'T believe in. Do you see me outside with a freaking sign? See how ridiculous that is? Sometimes, to live in a decent society, you have to contribute to the general well-being. And a secular school system that attempts to educate everyone, pulls our society up as a whole. Which benefits everyone.

Christ, you people see "socialism" everywhere don't you? Oh brother...

Actually, if you read our Constitution, you would see that Congress, in Article 1, Section 8, is authorized:

To establish Post Offices and post Roads;
To provide and maintain a Navy
To provide for organizing, arming, and disciplining, the Militia,
etc.

Our nation never needed a public school system and we were fine. Why is it that now people assume that without government-run "education" systems, our country would be full of idiots?

That is the most ridiculous thing I ever heard. Congratulations. Nobody on this board is going to agree with you. Not even the ultra-right wing fanatics.

 

[rickn]

Originally posted by: HalosPuma

Originally posted by: DealMonkey

Originally posted by: HalosPuma

Originally posted by: DealMonkey
If you don't like it, don't send your kids to public schools. Home-school them

That's fine, but the problem is that my taxes are still going to fund public schools. I won't attend public schools, I won't put my kids in public schools, and I won't complain about the socialism in public schools if I'm not taxed to support public schools. As long as I am taxed, you damn well better believe I will have a word or two or more on how my money is spent.

What about the myriad of OTHER purposes your tax money goes to? Hell, I object to MY tax money being spent on roads that I NEVER drive on and weapon systems and military gear used to wage wars I DON'T believe in. Do you see me outside with a freaking sign? See how ridiculous that is? Sometimes, to live in a decent society, you have to contribute to the general well-being. And a secular school system that attempts to educate everyone, pulls our society up as a whole. Which benefits everyone.

Christ, you people see "socialism" everywhere don't you? Oh brother...

Actually, if you read our Constitution, you would see that Congress, in Article 1, Section 8, is authorized:

To establish Post Offices and post Roads;
To provide and maintain a Navy
To provide for organizing, arming, and disciplining, the Militia,
etc.

Our nation never needed a public school system and we were fine. Why is it that now people assume that without government-run "education" systems, our country would be full of idiots?

when they wrote that they had 1 road, 1 row boat, and a 1 room post office

 

[halik]

Originally posted by: HalosPuma

Originally posted by: DealMonkey

Originally posted by: HalosPuma

Originally posted by: DealMonkey
If you don't like it, don't send your kids to public schools. Home-school them

That's fine, but the problem is that my taxes are still going to fund public schools. I won't attend public schools, I won't put my kids in public schools, and I won't complain about the socialism in public schools if I'm not taxed to support public schools. As long as I am taxed, you damn well better believe I will have a word or two or more on how my money is spent.

What about the myriad of OTHER purposes your tax money goes to? Hell, I object to MY tax money being spent on roads that I NEVER drive on and weapon systems and military gear used to wage wars I DON'T believe in. Do you see me outside with a freaking sign? See how ridiculous that is? Sometimes, to live in a decent society, you have to contribute to the general well-being. And a secular school system that attempts to educate everyone, pulls our society up as a whole. Which benefits everyone.

Christ, you people see "socialism" everywhere don't you? Oh brother...

Actually, if you read our Constitution, you would see that Congress, in Article 1, Section 8, is authorized:

To establish Post Offices and post Roads;
To provide and maintain a Navy
To provide for organizing, arming, and disciplining, the Militia,
etc.

Our nation never needed a public school system and we were fine. Why is it that now people assume that without government-run "education" systems, our country would be full of idiots?

i suggest you look stats on GDP growth and highschol graduation rates. Let me know if you find a correlation

This country would collapse without public education. The real wages for unskilled labor are on a decline for the past 30 years and we are NOT competitive in the global market in terms of agriculture and other sectors that need a lot of unskilled labor.

 

[Riprorin]

Originally posted by: DealMonkey

Originally posted by: HalosPuma
We're talking percentages here, not individual cases. Just look at the stats above.

Oh please, like I'm going to take stats offered up by the HERITAGE FOUNDATION at face-value. Please. I'd sooner believe a GOP-funded case study that determines that drilling for oil in Alaska makes penguins faster and stronger and elk bullet-proof.

The study was done by the Rand Corporation. Are you honestly surprised by the results?

 

[judasmachine]

if you pay your researchers, they will say anything you want them to.

 

[HalosPuma]

Let's see, I quote our Constitution and here's the response:

Originally posted by: BarneyFife
That is the most ridiculous thing I ever heard. Congratulations. Nobody on this board is going to agree with you. Not even the ultra-right wing fanatics.

Yup, that old piece of rotten-yellow parchment is the most ridiculous thing you have ever heard. It is truly sad to see what has become of our nation. Thank God the people on this board are in the minority and aren't the ones running our great nation.

 

[DealMonkey]

Originally posted by: HalosPuma
Actually, if you read our Constitution, you would see that Congress, in Article 1, Section 8, is authorized:

To establish Post Offices and post Roads;
To provide and maintain a Navy
To provide for organizing, arming, and disciplining, the Militia,
etc.

Our nation never needed a public school system and we were fine. Why is it that now people assume that without government-run "education" systems, our country would be full of idiots?

Yes, yes I do. Just take a quick look at virtually any 3rd-world country to see what I mean.

And by the way, I wouldn't be opposed to a voucher system that allowed alternative secular educational institutions to compete with the public system. What I object to is the notion brought forth by the OP. Which, if you pay attention to the subtext, insists that secular = BAD; Christian = GOOD. Obviously Rip wants good Christian values, Intelligent Design and various Jesus theories taught in public school along with a dozen different oaths to god and country being recited on a daily basis.

 

[rickn]

Originally posted by: HalosPuma
Let's see, I quote our Constitution and here's the response:

Originally posted by: BarneyFife
That is the most ridiculous thing I ever heard. Congratulations. Nobody on this board is going to agree with you. Not even the ultra-right wing fanatics.

Yup, that old piece of rotten-yellow parchment is the most ridiculous thing you have ever heard. It is truly sad to see what has become of our nation. Thank God the people on this board are in the minority and aren't the ones running our great nation.

I thought the same thing about you. Want a cookie?

 

[Red Dawn]

Originally posted by: Riprorin

Originally posted by: DealMonkey

Originally posted by: HalosPuma
We're talking percentages here, not individual cases. Just look at the stats above.

Oh please, like I'm going to take stats offered up by the HERITAGE FOUNDATION at face-value. Please. I'd sooner believe a GOP-funded case study that determines that drilling for oil in Alaska makes penguins faster and stronger and elk bullet-proof.

The study was done by the Rand Corporation. Are you honestly surprised by the results?

Man I'm glad my parents weren't obsessive compulsive like you. Are you aware they have meds for your affliction?

 

[HalosPuma]

Originally posted by: DealMonkey
I wouldn't be opposed to a voucher system that allowed alternative secular educational institutions to compete with the public system. What I object to is the notion brought forth by the OP. Which, if you pay attention to the subtext, insists that secular = BAD; Christian = GOOD. Obviously Rip wants good Christian values, Intelligent Design and various Jesus theories taught in public school along with a dozen different oaths to god and country being recited on a daily basis.

Okay, point taken. I'm not arguing the secular vs. Christian part, I'm arguing government-run schools vs. private education. On the surface, vouchers sound good. But the problem is that there really is not competition. All of the schools are part of the Department of Education. However, if those vouchers could also be used at private schools, then that would at least be better.

 

[DealMonkey]

Originally posted by: Riprorin
The study was done by the Rand Corporation. Are you honestly surprised by the results?

Yeah in 1990. Which is now 15-years old. Hell, any kind of disciplined private school will probably out-perform the public school system. Why not compare catholic schools to, oh say, military schools? Let's see those statistics?